Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

maringo

It seems the deportations are for political reasons - elections coming up!
Mass deportations make me feel very uneasy - remembering how Hitler rounded up Jews and Roma gypsies for the gas chambers.

I don't know how these people can be integrated into general society = we ourselves haven't yet managed to deal with our own native Irish travellers, many of whom continue to live in deprived conditions around the country.

opo

maringo wrote: »

Mass deportations make me feel very uneasy - remembering how Hitler rounded up Jews and Roma gypsies for the gas chambers.

Flown home with €300 in your pocket VS going to Auschwitz like cattle - stripped of your possessions and gassed alive.

It's so hard to tell the difference.

LarrytheLantern

maringo wrote: »

It seems the deportations are for political reasons - elections coming up!
Mass deportations make me feel very uneasy - remembering how Hitler rounded up Jews and Roma gypsies for the gas chambers.

I don't know how these people can be integrated into general society = we ourselves haven't yet managed to deal with our own native Irish travellers, many of whom continue to live in deprived conditions around the country.

to seek to equate the deportation of these thieves & malingerers with the holocaust is utter tripe.
as for our native parasites, the ones down my way are doing very nicely for themselves. 2009/10 registered cars/vans, brand new detached houses etc. that's the kind of deprivation i could handle!

View

LarrytheLantern wrote: »

as for our native parasites, the ones down my way are doing very nicely for themselves. 2009/10 registered cars/vans, brand new detached houses etc. that's the kind of deprivation i could handle!

Can we leave our politicians and bankers out of this discussion please?

Bottle_of_Smoke

opo wrote: »

Flown home with €300 in your pocket VS going to Auschwitz like cattle - stripped of your possessions and gassed alive.

It's so hard to tell the difference.

Aye. Think I'd be pretty damn offended if I was a holocaust survivor or child/grandchild of any Jew affected by the Nazi regime and someone made that comparison

opo

opo wrote: »

If it was found under such statistics that a particular ethnic group was particulary prone to criminality - would you support specific actions to limit their access to a third party country - by that country?

Nope. But it would warrant the attention of the police towards that ethnic grouping or nationality. We'd still be attributing the crimes to individuals. They would still be doing the crimes themselves. But the recording of such information would, at least, wither disprove or prove the stereotypes that exist. Stereotypes that continue to be used at all levels.

maringo wrote: »

It seems the deportations are for political reasons - elections coming up!

It seems to you that the deportations are for political reasons - elections coming up!

Isn't that better?

Mass deportations make me feel very uneasy - remembering how Hitler rounded up Jews and Roma gypsies for the gas chambers.

Well, I wasn't alive then to remember, but I get your point... but the difference being that the Roma are not being sent to camps. They're being sent to their point of origin. Hardly a death camp by any means.

I don't know how these people can be integrated into general society = we ourselves haven't yet managed to deal with our own native Irish travellers, many of whom continue to live in deprived conditions around the country.

There is a rather large difference between the Travelers and the Roma. Citizenship. The Travelers are Irish citizens. The Roma in question are not french citizens.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I've made my views of the typical roma lifesyle clear but it was wrong of the French government to target them by ethnicity. Haven't seen the memo, don't speak French and I'm open to corrections but from interpreting the articles on it, it would appear instructions were given to target Romas as a priority for simply being Roma. That isn't cool.

Perhaps if it was shown Roma camps typically had higher rates of crime it could be argued it made sense to target them as priority but I have not seen this brought up.

Any French speakers with acces to the leaked memo?

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Aye. Think I'd be pretty damn offended if I was a holocaust survivor or child/grandchild of any Jew affected by the Nazi regime and someone made that comparison

You seem to overlook the fact that large numbers of Roma -- probably hundreds of thousands -- were also included in a Nazi extermination programme.

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Where does it say the other groups were non-French?

Where does it say they aren't? As I said I don't know either way.

gurramok wrote: »

Deporting a sizeable illegal immigrant group like the Roma would be a fairly big operation hence I can see why their name might have been mentioned as a priority over others.

So, despite the fact there are many illegal camps, they decided to just pick on one particular group....

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually... Its quite obvious from my posts that I have no problem with people being targeted due to their legal status. Hence all the underlining of Legal and Illegal in a previous post. I have only responded to other peoples references to ethnicity.

Fair enough.

Deleted User wrote: »

This is what I don't get. You keep saying about ethnicity being irrelevant, but its all you're talking about, and its only about the ethnicity that is the Roma Gypsies.

The reason I am talking about it is due to the French government singling them out, and have stated as such already. Your inability to understand my reasoning is rather puzzling. My issue is the French government bringing up ethnicity in the first place.

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Somehow I find that to be just playing with words. At the end of the day, its about people being deported. IF it was only the Roma Gypsies that were being deported, then it would be a case of ethnic discrimination. BUT its not.

There being targetted above and beyond other groups, so yes there is discrimination.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll wait until it successfully happens before I'll believe that to be the case.

Fair enough.

wes

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Why? They're more likely to be involved in crime and scrounge off society, if your going to close down 300 camps, you want to make sure you get the worst. It's the most efficient way of doing it I imagine.

They I would imagine they would have mentioned some statistics based on crime and the like, but they didn't.

gurramok

wes wrote: »

Where does it say they aren't?

So, despite the fact there are many illegal camps, they decided to just pick on one particular group....

So previous post on the matter on the previous page. There were other camps of non-Roma dismantled too.

It looks to me the others were French nationals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10892669

bbc wrote:

However, a poll out this week suggests that the majority of the population approves of the government's toughening line on law and order, our correspondent adds.

The government has said it cannot "tolerate" the camps, describing them as "sources of illegal trafficking, of profoundly shocking living standards, of exploitation of children for begging, of prostitution and crime".

There are hundreds of thousands of Roma or travelling people living in France who are part of long-established communities.

The other main Roma population is made up of recent immigrants, mainly from Romania and Bulgaria. They have the right to enter France without a visa but must have work or residency permits to settle over the long-term.

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You seem to overlook the fact that large numbers of Roma -- probably hundreds of thousands -- were also included in a Nazi extermination programme.

What has that got to do with France's 2010 expulsion of Romas being compared with Nazi treatment of Jews(or Romas)?

The same thing applies. If I was a Roma holocaust survivor I think I'd be offended at the comparisons too.

wes

gurramok wrote: »

So previous post on the matter on the previous page. There were other camps of non-Roma dismantled too.

It looks to me the others were French nationals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10892669

The text is pretty unclear actually.

caseyann

wes wrote: »

Where does it say they aren't? As I said I don't know either way.



So, despite the fact there are many illegal camps, they decided to just pick on one particular group....

They can only deal with one at a time?

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What has that got to do with France's 2010 expulsion of Romas being compared with Nazi treatment of Jews(or Romas)?

The same thing applies. If I was a Roma holocaust survivor I think I'd be offended at the comparisons too.

I'd suspect that a Roma holocaust survivor would be troubled by a policy of selecting illegally-resident Roma for expulsion rather than applying the policy equally to all illegal residents.

In other words, there is some validity in the comparison.

gurramok

wes wrote: »

The text is pretty unclear actually.

Pretty clear to me.

bbc wrote:

There are hundreds of thousands of Roma or travelling people living in France who are part of long-established communities.

The other main Roma population is made up of recent immigrants, mainly from Romania and Bulgaria. They have the right to enter France without a visa but must have work or residency permits to settle over the long-term.

"Long-established communities" as they called them are French nationals.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You seem to overlook the fact that large numbers of Roma -- probably hundreds of thousands -- were also included in a Nazi extermination programme.

You seem to overlook that this isn't a French extermination programme, and it isn't just about Roma - it is targeting illegals - 300 camps, 200 of which are majority Roma and will be tackled first. The comparisons to the Holocaust are disgusting

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd suspect that a Roma holocaust survivor would be troubled by a policy of selecting illegally-resident Roma for expulsion rather than applying the policy equally to all illegal residents.

In other words, there is some validity in the comparison.

Will you cop on you're comparing apples and oranges. Whether the survivor is troubled or not it is silly and offensive to compare exterminating people to legally deporting them!

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Pretty clear to me.

It doesn't mention if these long-established communities are in any of these camps....

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

You seem to overlook that this isn't a French extermination programme, and it isn't just about Roma - it is targeting illegals - 300 camps, 200 of which are majority Roma and will be tackled first. The comparisons to the Holocaust are disgusting

The issue is equality before the law. If the application of law is decided on the basis of ethnicity, then that equality is compromised. To defend such discrimination is to defend ethnic discrimination, and that can be a very slippery slope.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The issue is equality before the law. If the application of law is decided on the basis of ethnicity, then that equality is compromised. To defend such discrimination is to defend ethnic discrimination, and that can be a very slippery slope.

But the application of the law is not being decided by ethnicitic, it is being decided by criminality/illegality - the law WILL BE APPLIED to all the illegal campers, and if it is not, if the French stop after the Roma deportations then I will agree with you and condemn this as discrimination. If you are involved in the logisitcal end of deporting illegals, I'd imagine it makes sense to order (as in arrange) those deportations in some way, country of origin may seem appropriate.

You have a bunch of letters that need to return to sender - you group them by origin and send them back in bulk, you seem to be against them having any order in how they deport but are phrasing your argument as if it is against who they deport.

They are deporting illegals, they are doing it Roma first

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

You seem to overlook that this isn't a French extermination programme, and it isn't just about Roma - it is targeting illegals - 300 camps, 200 of which are majority Roma and will be tackled first. The comparisons to the Holocaust are disgusting

Why tackle the Roma first?

Why refer to them as Roma when they're citizens of other EU states?

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

Why tackle the Roma first?

Logistics

Why refer to them as Roma when they're citizens of other EU states?

So you would have no issue if they phrased it as 'Romanians and Bulgarians to be deported first'.

I doubt it.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the vast number of countries that the Roma may hail from, it seems like a logistical nightmare and so I can see why they'd do this first.



Bulgaria
Greece
Macedonia
Romania
Serbia
Czech Republic and Slovakia
Hungary
Poland
Russia
Ukraine

gurramok

wes wrote: »

It doesn't mention if these long-established communities are in any of these camps....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11027288

bbc wrote:

France has embarked on a high-profile campaign of deporting Romanian and Bulgarian Roma (Gypsies) as part of a crackdown on illegal camps in the country. It comes after clashes in July between French Roma and police in the town of Saint Aignan.

Here's specifically more. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10820457
Note the distinction between French Roma(Travellers) and foreign born Roma.

bbc wrote:

On Wednesday, Mr Sarkozy ordered the dismantling of 300 illegal camps of travellers and Roma across France, and the immediate expulsion of Bulgarian and Romanian Roma who had committed public order offences.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Logistics

So you would have no issue if they phrased it as 'Romanians and Bulgarians to be deported first'.

They'd have less chance of European court action if they'd done it in such a fashion. However they're clearly targeting by ethnicity.

Laminations

Seriously, would any of you have a problem if they looked at the criminals awaiting trials and decided to do it based on area (either for logistics or based on most criminals in the system from that area) i.e. In October the courts will try anyone charged from Ballymun, then in November they'll move on to Coolock and so on. Of course this isn't exactly analogous as seriousness of crime has also to be taken into account but in France the crime is simply 'you are here illegally'

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

They'd have less chance of European court action if they'd done it in such a fashion. However they're clearly targeting by ethnicity.

How? They are clearly targeting by illegality. Not all Romas are illegal so not all Romas will be targeted. Not all illegals are Roma but all illegals will be deported. A majority (it seems) of illegals are Roma, they will go first. Where do you suggest they start?

Its any excuse for an old civil rights knicker twist

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

How? They are clearly targeting by illegality.

Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/france-deportation-roma-illegal-memo

Clearly not.

Laminations wrote: »

Not all Romas are illegal so not all Romas will be targeted. Not all illegals are Roma but all illegals will be deported. A majority (it seems) of illegals are Roma, they will go first. Where do you suggest they start?

At the camp thats causing the most inconvenience....mad idea I know.

wolfpawnat

I am sorry to sound hateful, But I am sick of them constantly harrassing me everytime I wheel my buggy down Henry Street or up Grafton Street. If they contributed to society in ANY way other than robbing, begging, etc.

France are starting to reclaim their national pride, I cannot say I blame them. If you decide to move to a country, no matter for how long, you should respect the culture and also adhere to the law.

A lot of these Roma Gypsies are not sent home after illegal acts, they get their children to beg and are no where near paupers, they are often in better clothing than ourselves! I cannot afford Nike Air runners but they and their children are in them.

The reason people are supposed to be taken in from countries outside of the EU are for for employment, college or because their country is too dangerous for them to live in eg Sierra Leon and Rwanda in the 1990's. I believe in everyone having a right to a safe and happy life, but they do nothing here but make our streets look rough and harrassing others!

DO they even allow their children to be educated???