Round 13: Belgian Grand Prix

amacachi · 29-08-2010 2:46pm

Heh, nice email there about Schumacher getting a 10 grid penalty for almost causing an accident while Vettel does cause an accident and gets a drive-through. :pac:

Ghost Train · 29-08-2010 2:53pm

amacachi wrote: »

Heh, nice email there about Schumacher getting a 10 grid penalty for almost causing an accident while Vettel does cause an accident and gets a drive-through. :pac:

Does make a good point since it does effect Buttons championship

Only danger is you don't want fia punishing ever little thing, wasn't deliberate, just silly

amacachi · 29-08-2010 2:56pm

Ghost Train wrote: »

Does make a good point since it does effect Buttons championship

Only danger is you don't want fia punishing ever little thing, wasn't deliberate, just silly

Aye true enough, but if Hamilton finishes ahead of Button next time out we'll have lost a title contender, if we haven't already. If someone in a slower car had done what Vettel did all the teams would be complaining about inexperienced drivers etc., yet Vettel has caused two accidents this year and there'll be no talk of real punishment.

Ghost Train · 29-08-2010 3:03pm

Not going to help Button now, but a grid penalty might be a lesson for Vettel

Guess it depends on how strict the FIA wants to be

Still can't believe Alonsos car survived the hit from Rubens

EvilMonkey · 29-08-2010 3:48pm

In fairness to Vettel, he made a mistake he said he made a mistake. A drive through is the appropriate penalty and he served it. No point in calling for harsher penalties just because Schumacher was dealt with over handedly.

Button was backing the pack up, someone behind making a mistake and taking you out is a risk you take when you do that.

I'm not sure about the Vettel, Liuzzi incident. I think it was a racing incident we see every race.

Anyone see Kubica shove Vettel off the track at the start in the run up to Les Combes. Vettel could easily have lost it and had a big accident. Not even mentioned and was similar to Schumacher and Barachello last race!

Barrichello 300 GPs and still making rookie mistakes. He said he couldn't tell it was wet but everyone else saw the leaders go off and slowed except him.

I'm amazed the Ferrari kept going, but they ****ed it up with a terrible call to put inters on when Alonso got to the pit.

Frank Bullitt · 29-08-2010 5:38pm

Manic stuff today, Webber got the best he could after his brutal start, I fancy him now for the championship, after the next race Red Bull should be quite strong at the final few races.

Still wide open though, if Webber and Hamilton get a DNF at the next few races then its still wide open really, great season.

Oblomov · 29-08-2010 5:59pm

The stewards are meeting and discussing all the reported incidents...

The mass excursion onto the grass at the start has been given as a no reaction..too many did the same thing and for a good reason

Lots of drivers trooping into and talking to the stewards...

Frank Bullitt · 29-08-2010 6:12pm

Oblomov wrote: »

The stewards are meeting and discussing all the reported incidents...

The mass excursion onto the grass at the start has been given as a no reaction..too many did the same thing and for a good reason

Lots of drivers trooping into and talking to the stewards...

Imagine if Hamilton got stripped of victory again.

Oblomov · 29-08-2010 6:32pm

Imagine if Hamilton got stripped of victory again.

Is that like saying Schumacher would win .... even his team mate was in front of him after starting from
behind TGB

The funny part, if you're entering the braking zone.... and you are too close.... Just guess what happens... Et al Vettel

Frank Bullitt · 29-08-2010 6:35pm

Its a tough one for the stewards anyway, wouldnt want to be making any decisions myself.

vectra · 29-08-2010 7:05pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I thought the drive through penalty was a bit harsh I thought, its not as if he meant to do it.

I thought the same.
After all... How many cars went ar$eways on that exact part of the track prior to this

Top Dog · 29-08-2010 7:48pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Anyone see Kubica shove Vettel off the track at the start in the run up to Les Combes. Vettel could easily have lost it and had a big accident. Not even mentioned and was similar to Schumacher and Barachello last race!

Came up on the ticker during the race that it was going to be investigated after the race had finished

vectra · 29-08-2010 9:01pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I'm amazed the Ferrari kept going, but they ****ed it up with a terrible call to put inters on when Alonso got to the pit.

To be honest about it I think the ****ed it up by getting Alonso on board ... He is making a hell of a lot of rookie mistakes this year.

velo.2010 · 29-08-2010 9:06pm

Sometimes a racing incident is just a racing incident!

Stewards are penalty crazy now and the ex-drivers are being too pushy in how they apply the law. Seems like they want some glory themselves. Anyone mention Alonso pushing one of the cars towards the pit wall as he exited the bus-stop? Now I'm at it, picking on incidents which were trivial in the past.

While the run-in appears full of drama etc. I can't feeling that this season has been somewhat contrived. Too many tech and rule changes. Everything was practically perfect in 2007 and 2008, overtaking, drama on and off the track. Then its ruined with silly gimmacks last season. This year we have F-ducts and moving wings. All apparently legal when in the past the FIA clamped down on anything which even hinted at improving a cars performance.

EvilMonkey · 29-08-2010 9:06pm

Top Dog wrote: »

Came up on the ticker during the race that it was going to be investigated after the race had finished

I thought they investigated it and no action required, the commentators didn't have a clue what it was for when it came up.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome was so, I don't see why they had to leave it till after the race.

vectra wrote: »

To be honest about it I think the ****ed it up by getting Alonso on board ... He is making a hell of a lot of rookie mistakes this year.

He has made a few mistakes al right. But strategy calls have been poor at Ferrari in recent years (since Brawn left actually)

GTE · 29-08-2010 9:09pm

Solid race by Schumacher and Rosberg. They both seem to be very equal in that car for the whole weekend. Perhaps the conditions cancelled out some of the drawbacks of their car for the race.

Happy for Hamilton, Webber must be delighted with that result. I didnt want Button to do well so the Vettle in rookie mode was a fun moment. Overall my favourite drivers of the McLaren and Red Bull teams did well.

Happy for Massa who also had a solid race. Delighted Alonso crashed out.

Some great sheer power from the Force India's at times.
Kubica did very well too, pity it wasnt a second though.

The rain really made it interesting.

Great race!

Ghost Train · 29-08-2010 9:56pm

I don't think the stewards are interfering too much, the only race penalties today was for Vettel and a penalty for Alguersuari after the race for not giving back a place gained cutting the chicane. I think Vettels was borderline racing incident but what he did was basically run into the back of Button which probably would have got any other driver the same drive through.

I'd say Kubica pushing Vettel onto the grass wasn't looked at too harshly because it was where the track bends. Talking about it after the race on the BBC forum they didn't make much of it, they did note that Kubica gave Vettel plenty of room once he saw Vettel in trouble.

Read an analysis of 2009 stewards decisions vs 2010 for the first half of the season and there wasn't much difference which the new setup, can't remember where I saw it though.

Oblomov · 29-08-2010 11:11pm

Some interesting data thrown up by the speed traps:

maximum speeds, first is race and second Quali

1 ..... Massa ...... 305.4.......312.9
2 ..... Sutil ....... 304.4.......304.9
3 ..... Alonso ..... 304.1.......303.5
4 ..... Weber ..... 303.2 ......306.2
5 ...... Hamilton....303.3 ..... 307.4

10 .... Rosberg.....301.1 ..... 304.4
14......Schumacher 298.9.... 303.3

All speeds are KPH

the position are for race speeds and not quali.

Fastest laps:

1 Hamilton....1.49.069 on lap 32
2 Weber ......1.49.396 on lap 32
3 Kubica ......1.49.807 on lap 29

10 Rosberg 1.51.688 on lap 31
13 Schumacher 1.51.914 on lap 32

EvilMonkey · 29-08-2010 11:25pm

Where was the speed trap on the circuit?

Oblomov · 30-08-2010 11:06am

There are three

Intermediate one, two and finish line

Maximum speeds on the circuit

Intermediate One

1 15 V. LIUZZI 323.2
2 14 A. SUTIL 322.1
3 23 K. KOBAYASHI 322.0
4 22 P. DE LA ROSA 319.4
5 20 S. YAMAMOTO 317.7
6 3 M. SCHUMACHER 317.6
7 9 R. BARRICHELLO 317.5

Intermediate two

1 6 M. WEBBER 201.5
2 5 S. VETTEL 199.7
3 11 R. KUBICA 198.8
4 7 F. MASSA 198.5
5 2 L. HAMILTON 197.9
6 14 A. SUTIL 196.8
7 10 N. HULKENBERG 196.0
8 3 M. SCHUMACHER 195.0

Finish line

1 2 L. HAMILTON 216.9
2 14 A. SUTIL 215.2
3 15 V. LIUZZI 214.7
4 6 M. WEBBER 214.6
5 7 F. MASSA 214.2
6 11 R. KUBICA 213.3
7 1 J. BUTTON 213.3
7 8 F. ALONSO 212.7

Then if you want to do a lap by lap comparison....

LOL

All information courtesy FIA

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-race-speeds.pdf

G-Money · 30-08-2010 12:31pm

Great result for Hamilton. I'm going to watch qualifying, the race and the forum on iPlayer when I get home. I kind of wish I'd rented a Kangaroo TV as I think it would have made tracking the action easier.

GTE · 30-08-2010 12:56pm

According to the BBC graphic the speed trap was at the top or just after Au Rouge.

TheChrisD · 30-08-2010 2:39pm

bbk wrote: »

According to the BBC graphic the speed trap was at the top or just after Au Rouge.

You mean at the end of the Kemmel straight after Eau Rouge.

GTE · 30-08-2010 10:10pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

You mean at the end of the Kemmel straight after Eau Rouge.

No, that is not what I mean at all.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I highly doubt its at the top of Au Rouge or even just past it, no way they are doing 200mph through Au Rouge.

Yeah I know, when I saw it I wondered why they had it there in the first place but then I just thought that it would be an interesting place to have one to see how the cars can take the corner. It seems now though that there are inconsistencies between what was published for the public consumption on the TV and the actual placement of it according to the more detailed figures posted here.

http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/belgium_836/circuit_diagram.html
That and the BBC graphic I saw have the speed trap in the same place, whether it was actually there or not is not what I'm questioning.

Ghost Train · 31-08-2010 1:22am

Not implying anything about the redbull front wing but interesting to see how much movement can be seen as he gets behind button

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5naInRFSP7A

Oblomov · 31-08-2010 10:21am

BBC might be running their own speed cameras.

G-Money · 31-08-2010 11:30am

Spa Race Start - sorry about the dodgy camera work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjTy_W-ohmQ

G-Money · 31-08-2010 5:26pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I knew somebody would bring up the Red Bull wing! Let it go would ya

And remember "red bull gives you flexi wings"

I preferred the headline that Autosport used for their British GP Review...

"Red Bull gives you old front wings"

EvilMonkey · 01-09-2010 2:17pm

Ghost Train wrote: »

Not implying anything about the redbull front wing but interesting to see how much movement can be seen as he gets behind button
...

Whitmarsh will have pics of this and still be complaining to anyone that will listen in Monza. Meanwhile RB and Ferrari will pass the second lot of new tests for Monza.

losthorizon · 02-09-2010 10:44am

Last weekend was my second race weekend at spa. I love the place. Theres a grand prix there next season but after that it might only be held every two years which would be a real shame.

Myrddin · 02-09-2010 12:31pm

losthorizon wrote: »

Last weekend was my second race weekend at spa. I love the place. Theres a grand prix there next season but after that it might only be held every two years which would be a real shame.

Ugh seriously? What an utterly brilliant race it was on Sunday, and the history within the place is tangible too. I really hope to get to a GP next seaosn, & if I do, it will be Spa without a doubt.

G-Money · 02-09-2010 1:16pm

I'm writing up a huge big report of my trip to Spa, at the last point the word count was about 4200 words and I'd only covered the Thursday and the Friday

But I have to say, Spa was a bit of a weird one for me. It's one of my favourite tracks to watch a race from on TV but I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. However I think that was mainly because I was staying in a hotel that I absolutely hated and I think it tainted the whole experience quite significantly.

My seat at Eau Rouge wasn't fantastic. I somehow ended up 3 rows from the back of the stand even though I bought the ticket about 10 months in advance. I had a great view from La Source the whole way down and into Eau Rouge but when they sped past it was hard to see them, due to the angle, the crowd, the line the cars took and the fencing.

I was kind of glad to get away from Francorchamps, but mostly because of the hotel.

But the strangest thing has happened. Now that I'm home a couple of days, I'm already thinking about going back again next year

But I'm definitely staying somewhere else if I go back.

Eau Rouge is magnificent and is like the side of a mountain. There's no other corner like it.

If I was going back, I'd get a seat at either La source, the start/finish grandstand or the grandstand at the last corner facing the pit entry.

So all in all, I'm glad I went and I don't regret going. It's one of my favourite tracks (along with Suzuka). The atmosphere felt a bit flat or something but then it could have been the weather and a combination of the hotel that affected both of those things for me.

I'd go again though, but sit at a different seat.

Oh yeah, one other thing. I went on the pit lane walk and got Lewis Hamilton's autograph on my cap. I was well chuffed with that. I was second from the barrier and reached over as far as I could and he took the cap, signed it and handed it back. I was really happy with that

losthorizon · 02-09-2010 1:29pm

Grandmaster - Aachen isnt a bad place to stay. I have all the details about train connections etc. Friday will Test your patience getting there but Saturday and Sunday are Ok. The uncovered stand below you where I was (Gold 4) seems to give a better view. A return ticket for two people and 3 kids if you have them (you will need someone to show you the day before) as the machine will only do it in German is €15 return from Aachen to Spa.

losthorizon · 02-09-2010 1:34pm

grandmaster wrote: »

Oh yeah, one other thing. I went on the pit lane walk and got Lewis Hamilton's autograph on my cap. I was well chuffed with that. I was second from the barrier and reached over as far as I could and he took the cap, signed it and handed it back. I was really happy with that

Fair dues. I always feel hes projecting himself for commercial resons when hes doing things like that. But, I was impressed with him during the drivers parade as well. Interacted the best with the crowd. Hes blossomed a lot since his father has gone off the radar

Myrddin · 02-09-2010 2:11pm

losthorizon wrote: »

Fair dues. I always feel hes projecting himself for commercial resons when hes doing things like that. But, I was impressed with him during the drivers parade as well. Interacted the best with the crowd. Hes blossomed a lot since his father has gone off the radar

Why has his father disappeared, after being with him from the beginning?

I almost had to look away when he went off the road during the final downpour, epic stuff.

G-Money · 02-09-2010 2:45pm

I like Hamilton, he's probably my favourite but I also really like Button.

All the drivers came out to sign autographs, I just hung around McLaren until their two guys came out. I might have been able to get Button's autograph too but I got Hamilton's and felt greedy trying to get Button's too so I tried to get out of the way to let someone else get a chance to get something signed.

There's a brand new hotel right by the circuit, I might stay there next year. I think it could be insanely expensive but it's nice to splash out the odd time. Will see though.

For those looking to buy tickets for Spa next year, the circuit were handing out flyers with tickets prices etc already. The tickets are the cheapest until the end of October when they go up in price a bit. The same thing happens a few more times in the months after that.

I'd love to go to Suzuka but that would be a hugely expensive trip, and definitely not one I'm going on this year. I think I'd maybe go through a tour operator for that, but get the race tickets myself. Would be nice to have coaches etc all setup and not have to worry about trying to get around in Japan.

PJTierney · 02-09-2010 6:10pm

Looking forward to your very long report, I remember writing a 12,000 word report on an event I played in last year (granted, it's only a game and not F1, but I can relate to what you're doing

). I'd link but as it isn't F1-related it'll be off-topic.

G-Money · 02-09-2010 8:30pm

PJTierney wrote: »

Looking forward to your very long report, I remember writing a 12,000 word report on an event I played in last year (granted, it's only a game and not F1, but I can relate to what you're doing ). I'd link but as it isn't F1-related it'll be off-topic.

It's now posted

amacachi · 03-09-2010 12:01am

recyclebin · 03-09-2010 1:34pm

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=41889

There's a good article on how Red Bull's are cheating the wing tests on Pitpass.com.

Coming from a mechanical engineering background myself and learning about mechanics of materials at college I would like to know who at the FIA designed the load tests. Was it someone who did leaving cert physics? Or did they give up physics and maths when it all got a little bit too hard for them.

Mclaren (spygate) and Renault (singaporegate) got done for cheating and rightly so. Ferrari will probably get done for team orders. Isn't it about time they had a proper look at Red Bull?

Rant over.

amacachi · 03-09-2010 2:03pm

That article pretty much reflects what I said in another thread and I ain't no physicist. :pac:

EvilMonkey · 03-09-2010 2:24pm

recyclebin wrote: »

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=41889

There's a good article on how Red Bull's are cheating the wing tests on Pitpass.com.

Coming from a mechanical engineering background myself and learning about mechanics of materials at college I would like to know who at the FIA designed the load tests. Was it someone who did leaving cert physics? Or did they give up physics and maths when it all got a little bit too hard for them.

Mclaren (spygate) and Renault (sennagate) got done for cheating and rightly so. Ferrari will probably get done for team orders. Isn't it about time they had a proper look at Red Bull?

Rant over.

Their passing the FIAs tests and therefore are legal. Its not RB's fault the FIA's test is crap.

The flexing wing is nothing like "spygate" or "sennagate".

amacachi · 03-09-2010 2:27pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Their passing the FIAs tests and therefore are legal. Its not RB's fault the FIA's test is crap.

The flexing wing is nothing like "spygate" or "sennagate".

While the comparison isn't fair, just because the wing is passing the current tests doesn't mean it complies with the rules. It passes the test, but it flexes way more than it should do when looked at within the other parts of the rulebook. When teams were caught getting around the weight rules they were dealt with harshly, even though they never "technically" broke any rules and never weighed in less than they should have.

amacachi · 03-09-2010 2:38pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Nonsense, it passes the test and thus is legal end of really.

When McLaren did a sly one and came out the F-duct nobody accused them of cheating because they found a loop-hole in the rules. If RedBull have done the same then its the same deal.

It's not the same though. If it's passing a test just because the test doesn't account enough for what it's meant to be testing then the test needs to be fully revised. If the teams had a wing that deployed at over 140 mph that sent all the air over the back wing and reduced drag but no-one could find it on the car in parc ferme would that make it legal? It's stupidly obvious from the videos that the wing isn't rigid like it's meant to be but the FiA just have no test to prove it yet.

frostie500 · 03-09-2010 5:23pm

The only reason that the flexi wing is even an issue is not because McLaren think it falls outside the 'spirit of the regulations' is because McLaren can not develop one in time for this season's title battle.

In its current state the wing passes the tests that are in place, therefore it is legal and there can be no disputing that. It may fall outside the spirit of the regulations but that doesn't matter a jot....unless you're the team thats behind and needs to eradicate the advantage of the pace setter.

amacachi · 03-09-2010 6:35pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Those video`s prove nothing at all, all the low-resolution photos mean nothing. In order to prove it you would have to do some test under lab conditions not some onboard footage. That article that was posted from pit-pass isnt great either to be honest.

The chap is talking about how different materials react to shear forces/applied stress. Nothing groundbreaking, depending on a materials will react differently. Not to mention impurities in the material change its bulk properties. Any 3rd level student studing Physics/Engineering can you tell that. Until the FIA come up with a new test its Legal and no team can give out about it.

Ah come on it's so obvious. It's not just the car pitching forward under braking either.
I agree the article wasn't great but I'd say it was accurate. :pac:

Ghost Train · 03-09-2010 7:06pm

Didnt Toyota pass the tests with their rear wings but marks on the wing showed that they were flexing on the track so they had to change them. I'm fine with the redbull building to comply with the tests but also i'm ok with fia evolving the tests to fit the rules closer. Its their job to enforce rulebook so good to good that they do that

Myrddin · 03-09-2010 8:45pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Their passing the FIAs tests and therefore are legal. Its not RB's fault the FIA's test is crap.

The flexing wing is nothing like "spygate" or "sennagate".

Agreed re the whole *gate thing, that's ridiculous. If the FIA's tests, can't ensure regulations are met, then it's hard not to understand the arguments from other teams. Very clever though.

johnnysmack · 03-09-2010 11:17pm

Sorry to go off topic but what "Sennagate" are ye referring to?

recyclebin · 04-09-2010 12:08am

johnnysmack wrote: »

Sorry to go off topic but what "Sennagate" are ye referring to?

I meant to say singaporegate or pique gate.

Anyway maybe I was wrong to use them as examples to compare with Red Bulls front wing.

A better example would be Toyotas cheating in WRC in the 90's. There car passed alot of scrutineering until their illegal restrictor was eventually discovered.
http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

BAR also got banned for their illegal second fuel tank.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php

Everyone can see that Red bull are breaking the rules, but the FIA tests just don't prove it and therefore they get away with it.

Round 13: Belgian Grand Prix

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