What's the deal with racing?

FrankGrimes

I'm toying with the idea of getting into racing at some point but I've no idea what it really involves. I mean, with joining a football team you know you'll have training twice a week, match at the weekend, 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw in the league, with a cup and shield tournament each season too. I guess I'm trying to understand what the cycling equivalent is. An initial search didn't show up any overview threads, but stop me here if one already exists.

It seems there are 4 categories of racer A1-A4. What are the type of events and are there separate local (club?) leagues and national leagues? Do you have to be a member of a club to race?

With long work hours and a part-time course that requires a lot of study, time is always tight and my first love is playing football (captain the boards.ie team) so spare time is minimal so I'm not sure I can commit to joining a club if you're expected to show up regularly at certain times. If I could just try-out a race or two to see how it goes, that'd be ideal. Is there a specific season or are events ongoing?

Lumen

From a Dublin perspective...

If you join a club your only obligation will be to pay your fees, buy a jersey and maybe marshall one or two club races a year.

For that you get as much advice and support as you want, access to (free) training spins and mid-week evening racing, and assistance filling out the (somewhat confusing) Cycling Ireland membership forms.

Open races are typically run at the weekend at fairly civilised times (e.g. 1pm), and require about 4-5 hours from the time you leave your house to the time you return, about the same as a long ride. I don't think you need to have CI or club membership to take part in in open races at A4 level - you can just pay for a day licence, sign on as "unattached" and wear kit that doesn't have any commercial logos on (i.e. leave the Radioshack kit at home).

The season is pretty much over now (although you might find the odd A4 race on) but starts again in March.

FrankGrimes

Thanks for that Lumen. Ah, I had for some reason thought that you'd be expected to show up regularly etc. but that doesn't sound overly-burdensome at all. Would it be regarded as poor form to do your training largely on your own time (showing up to a session here and there) and then showing up for the races? That'd probably be all I could realistically do with my lack of free time.

Are there separate leagues for separate events (e.g. a TT league etc.) or is it one league and then you do various different events in that league (TT, 80km race, 50km race etc.)?

DirkVoodoo mentioned in the Etape Hibernia thread that it's about having the discipline to stay in the group conserving energy until needed. That's something I'll need to work on! Sounds like the smart thing to do would be to just regard the first couple of races as observation - just watching what goes on, and then worrying about doing your best after that.

I like the idea of giving it a shot in March, would give me something to work towards to keep the focus over the summer.

niceonetom

FrankGrimes wrote: »

What are the type of events and are there separate local (club?) leagues and national leagues? Do you have to be a member of a club to race?

There are club leagues, but they have no CI points up for grabs - they're purely for bragging rights within and between clubs (though there is cash up for grabs too). Most serious racers treat the club league as good mid-week training for the real deal that happens at the weekends (most commonly Sunday afternoons). The Orwell/St-Teirnan's/UCD/Lucan/IRC league alternates between Britas and Battertown and takes place on thursday evenings from March to August (this thurs is the last), and the Swords league races on a few loops in North Dublin on Wednesday evenings. There are others, but those are the biggest. The leagues are certainly good arenas to get the skills of reading the race and getting some speed and you can learn a lot from racing against stronger riders - more than you'd learn racing against fellow A4s in open races for instance. League races tend to be a lot neater because people aren't doing kamikaze stuff for CI points and everyone tends to know the circuits a bit better. Higher stakes and inexperienced riders on unknown (and often tricky) circuits make open races a different experience altogether.

You don't have to join a club to race in open races, but I'd recommend it so you know what you're doing. Anyone can buy a one-day licence and race, but A4 races are messy and knowing how to position yourself (hint: not the back) and move in the bunch, through the corners etc. will make things a lot less scary.

Clubs demand relatively little of their members - certainly much less than would be expected of you on a football team. A bit of marshalling here and there basically. You can train or not, it's up to you, but you will improve faster if you ride with guys who are slightly (but not massively) faster than you and the all important handling skills become much more natural with time on the bike and time in the bunch.

You might be better off waiting for next season though rather than throwing yourself into the damp fag-end of this summer's.

Lumen

In the Orwell/Lucan/Usher/UCD/Tiernans and Swords leagues there are different types of races (handicaps, DMSs, TTs) from which points feed in to the overall league positions. Unless you have a particular ambition to win a league, it doesn't matter whether you do one race or all of them.

It would be worth going to one of two club spins in the new year, where you can get used to tight group riding, up and overs etc but it's not really very complicated - easy on the brakes, don't half-wheel, hold your line through corners and pedal on the descents if you're at the front.

I only did one or two group spins last winter, and aside from crashing harmlessly into a ditch at 40kph in my first open race didn't find the racing too difficult or technical, and only occasonally terrifying.

Although there are some strong riders in A4, most are just normal Freds like us. To put it in context, you'll mostly be racing with the very young, the very old and the very lazy. Juniors would skip straight on to the proper cats.

FrankGrimes

Thanks a lot for that niceonetom - makes things a lot clearer. I'll let it stew for a while longer and then see what I'll do, but I reckon joining Orwell at some point with a view to racing in March sounds like a plan.

keano007

Great thread....I'm in a similar situation as frankgrimes and it would be my aim to join Orwell and race next year.

How good is the a4 cat? I mean I've been doing sportives with about 2 years now and my times have improved alot. For example I did the tour of Louth in 3hrs 13mins. This was a 100km spin and I was lucky to get in with a great group until we started climbing and it broke up somewhat.

Anyway my question is this does that sound like the times of your average a4 cat rider or have I a long way to go yet?

Lumen

keano007 wrote: »

Anyway my question is this does that sound like the times of your average a4 cat rider or have I a long way to go yet?

Do some higher intensity training over the winter and you'll be fine.

I did Louth last year in a little under 3hrs, with a lot of wheelsucking. It almost killed me, and I am now a very average A4 rider. Of the other two boardsies who finished in that same group, one (Blorg) has since been promoted to A3, and the other (niceonetom) is club racing in semi-scratch (second fastest group) but too busy winning sportives to do open races.

Caroline_ie

Don't do it .. racing is hard and it hurts.

pprendeville

Lumen wrote: »

Do some higher intensity training over the winter and you'll be fine.

I did Louth last year in a little under 3hrs, with a lot of wheelsucking. It almost killed me, and I am now a very average A4 rider. Of the other two boardsies who finished in that same group, one (Blorg) has since been promoted to A3, and the other (niceonetom) is club racing in semi-scratch (second fastest group) but too busy winning sportives to do open races.

what was Louth and what's wheelsucking?

spoke to 07lapierre about joining Swords CC and maybe racing next yr so going out for a spin on Sat a.m. to see if I can keep pace with them at least. fingers crossed i don't make a fool of myself

kennyb3

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Don't do it .. racing is hard and it hurts.

But worth it.

@ keano007, with a time like that racing would be no problem to you at all.

Dave11

Racing is the way forward! I think you need to something to aim for or the training just seems pretty pointless really!!

I started racing this year and did the Swords League.... even maaged to pick up a 3rd, 2nd and 2 1st's!!!

Gonna try the open races next year and see how I get on!

Long winter of training ahead but as I say have something to aim for and it makes it all worth while!

Lumen

pprendeville wrote: »

what was Louth and what's wheelsucking?

This and "drafting, or riding closely behind the rider immediately in front to save energy".

doozerie

pprendeville wrote: »

fingers crossed i don't make a fool of myself

That is an understandable concern but there really is no shame in being dropped from a bunch that is doing a faster pace than you can handle. As in any sport, the levels of ability in a group vary a lot (both across individuals and also across different days for the same individual) so there is always the risk of someone being dropped if the pace is anything above casual or the distance of the ride is above what some people are used to.

Usually the group either slows down to accommodate the person struggling or else by common agreement (usually made in advance of the ride) the bunch keep going and the person(s) struggling does their own thing such as a shorter or slower spin on their own. If it does happen, don't be disheartened as the next time out you'll probably find that you are a little stronger and can last longer.

tawfeeredux

Lumen wrote: »

...one (Blorg) has since been promoted to A3, and the other (niceonetom) is club racing in semi-scratch (second fastest group) ...

Am I right in thinking that the A1-A4 categories have replaced what used to be called scratch, semi-scratch, limit & semi-limit, etc? And when people refer to the 2nd group catching the 1st group in a race, they're generally referring to the first group off, i.e. A4?

Chips Lovell

tawfeeredux wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that the A1-A4 categories have replaced what used to be called scratch, semi-scratch, limit & semi-limit, etc? And when people refer to the 2nd group catching the 1st group in a race, they're generally referring to the first group off, i.e. A4?

You're confusing open race categories with the categories often used by clubs in their own leagues. Open races it's A1 to A4. My own club league would use scratch, limit etc, but other clubs would call them group 1 and group 2 etc.

kennyb3

el tonto wrote: »

You're confusing open race categories with the categories often used by clubs in their own leagues. Open races it's A1 to A4. My own club league would use scratch, limit etc, but other clubs would call them group 1 and group 2 etc.

And just to expand further you may have a mix of A1's - A4's in any group, although obviously you wont find many A1's to A3's in limit but it is possible

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

It almost killed me, and I am now a very average A4 rider. Of the other two boardsies who finished in that same group,

There was another, who has since gone on to do nothing.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

There was another, who has since gone on to do nothing.

Sorry Pete, I forgot you were there. You mustn't have been complaining enough.

Besides which, are you not the reigning Goldsprints champion?

Beasty

petethedrummer wrote: »

There was another, who has since gone on to do nothing.

Ahem.... Am I right in thinking that only 2 people have ever beaten that individual in a road race?

gav07

keano007 wrote: »

Great thread....I'm in a similar situation as frankgrimes and it would be my aim to join Orwell and race next year.

+1. Time to at last join a club and try a race next year. Seems from Orwell's website that Autumn (Sep/Oct?) is the start of the new members season.

girvtheswerve

Wouldnt mind giving it a shot myself.

How big would the beginner groups be for the likes of Orwell around October? Is it easy to get to know people?

I always cycle on my own and would love to get into something more organised and be able to stop for a bit of coffee and craic with people

Beasty

For all round cycling with plenty of racing opportunities, it seems to me that in the Dublin area Orwell offer everything you would need southside, and Swords northside. They are 2 of the country's largest clubs - quite a lot of boardsies are members of one or other, and I don't recall a bad word being said about either.

Dublin Wheelers offer a summer TT League - 8 events between May and July, from recollection including Howth Hill climbs, 10m and 25m TTs. Dublin Wheelers members can participate in the Swords League and vice versa.

Of course, for some of us with a few more years in our legs there is also the vets (IVCA) who run nearly 40 events each year, mainly in the Dublin area, including about 15 TTs (including some over 50 miles!) - a number of riders participate in their local Club League, Open and Vets races throughout the season

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

Sorry Pete, I forgot you were there. You mustn't have been complaining enough.

Couldn't talk, suffering.

Beasty wrote: »

Ahem.... Am I right in thinking that only 2 people have ever beaten that individual in a road race?

Yes 2 men, roughly 10 years his senior.

buffalo

gav07 wrote: »

+1. Time to at last join a club and try a race next year. Seems from Orwell's website that Autumn (Sep/Oct?) is the start of the new members season.

Would anyone have any more details of this? Think it's exactly what I'm looking for.

levitronix

Before you go joining any clubs you need learn about racing ... Just go to chartbusters and rent " american flyers " everything you need to know about racing .. wheelsucking - sprints

Jawgap

Thinking seriously about giving racing a bash next year, so I had a look at the IVCA website and their mid-week league results:-

http://www.ivca.info/ivca2010/racing2010/Midweek%20League%20Result%2015%278%2710.xls

there's at least one 74 year old and a 76 year old in there - and they're not exactly propping up the table!:eek:

Beasty

Jawgap wrote: »

Thinking seriously about giving racing a bash next year, so I had a look at the IVCA website and their mid-week league results:-

http://www.ivca.info/ivca2010/racing2010/Midweek%20League%20Result%2015%278%2710.xls

there's at least one 74 year old and a 76 year old in there - and they're not exactly propping up the table!:eek:

There's a 78 year old still riding also

There are 6 ability-based groups, and you'll certainly find one that suits you Jawgap (although they do give you scratch handicaps in the TTs until you have set an appropriate number of official times)

Their midweek (Tuesday) League is a bit smaller than the Sunday one, and the races are shorter, which will suit any "beginners" - you really don't want to be starting off with an 80km CP!

manwithaplan

I will be eligible for veterans' races next year (40 is the cut off - right?) so that might be the thing when I have improved a (good) bit. Although looking at those granite-calved older gentlemen with the plumb line pedal strokes, I might be better off mixing it with the whippersnappers.

I definitely plan to pop out to some of the Swords training spins over the winter and see how long I can hang on. I was going to head out this staurday but the missus' marathon training takes priority so I have been bumped to Sunday. Maybe next week.

Beasty

manwithaplan wrote: »

I will be eligible for veterans' races next year (40 is the cut off - right?) so that might be the thing when I have improved a (good) bit. Although looking at those granite-calved older gentlemen with the plumb line pedal strokes, I might be better off mixing it with the whippersnappers.

You need to have reached the age of 40 (male) or 35 (female) by the end of the calendar year in question. Hence you can theoretically race at the age of 39/34 (and many do)

If I can start this racing lark at 49, someone 10 years my junior should find it easy!!

ROK ON

Given that there are many folks who are eagre to try racing but for one reason or another haven't.
Would any of the Dublin clubs be willing to put on a race for noobs? Could be good pr for the club.
Suggest a Wed night in Sept, with an entry fee of say 10yoyo to help the club.

I was hoping to do my first race tonite but Swords are running a TT up the side of a hill.
Mentally I can't do a TT (I push harder in a group), physically I can't climb.

As I say, just a suggestion and may help the clubs leverage an unfullfilled desire to race.

Now I know there have been plenty of opportunities to race, but still many folk for whatever reason haven't availed of them.

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

Given that there are many folks who are eagre to try racing but for one reason or another haven't.
Would any of the Dublin clubs be willing to put on a race for noobs? Could be good pr for the club.
Suggest a Wed night in Sept, with an entry fee of say 10yoyo to help the club.

I was hoping to do my first race tonite but Swords are running a TT up the side of a hill.
Mentally I can't do a TT (I push harder in a group), physically I can't climb.

As I say, just a suggestion and may help the clubs leverage an unfullfilled desire to race.

Now I know there have been plenty of opportunities to race, but still many folk for whatever reason haven't availed of them.

To some extent that's what Swords have been attempting with the 2 ladies races. Ladies/girls new to racing were encouraged to come along to races where only ladies would be involved, although they were open to experienced racers also, and a couple of experienced male riders rode with the less experienced groups to teach them a little racecraft

I am not sure what throwing together a number of riders who have not raced at all would achieve. You really need the more experienced riders to show those who have not raced the ropes. In many ways the club training spins can be seen to provide some of the necessary experience (although I only did one of these before commencing racing).

I'm certainly not discounting it as an option, although evening racing at this time of year is becoming quite difficult. Some of the Swords committee post regularly on here, and they are better placed to comment on the practicalities of your suggestion

Either way, there's nothing to stop you giving the hill climb a go - That's where I started in April (although it was a bit shorter and much sharper hill), and you'll certainly be welcome to come along to the races next year.

Raam

@ Rok On: no harm to give it a shot tonight. It can give you something by which to gauge yourself for next year.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

Given that there are many folks who are eagre to try racing but for one reason or another haven't. Would any of the Dublin clubs be willing to put on a race for noobs?

If it's for non-club members then it's an open race. All A4 open races are appropriate for "noobs" - that's the entire purpose of that category.

Club races are for club members, and have the limit groups which go at a handy enough pace.

So if you're in a club, go to a club race, and if you're not then go to an open race.

Horse...water....

ROK ON

Raam wrote: »

@ Rok On: no harm to give it a shot tonight. It can give you something by which to gauge yourself for next year.

I am attracted to racing and may (stupidly) try the Kerry Championsips if possible.
I have less than zero interest in TTs, particularly ones going up hills.
I can cycle up a hill slowly on my own at anytime. Don't see why I should pay for the displeasure.

Raam

The first race is usually an uphill TT in the Swords league. At least for the last two years anyway. No worries though, horses for courses.

happygoose

Pardon my ignorance here, noob too with similar thoughts of starting racing next season. Are many of the A4 races run off on their own? I'd be more inclined to enter these than a race where A1's, 2's 3's are being let off behind.

Raam

Not all A4 races are on their own. Sometimes A4 has a headstart over the other groups. It depends on what the organising club decide to do. Club league races are a great place to start racing.

Lumen

happygoose wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, noob too with similar thoughts of starting racing next season. Are many of the A4 races run off on their own? I'd be more inclined to enter these than a race where A1's, 2's 3's are being let off behind.

Yes they are, but it doesn't make a lot of difference unless you're expecting to win.

Chips Lovell

happygoose wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, noob too with similar thoughts of starting racing next season. Are many of the A4 races run off on their own? I'd be more inclined to enter these than a race where A1's, 2's 3's are being let off behind.

A lot of them are run separately and as far as I can recall, Cycling Ireland is trying to encourage organisers to run separate A4 races. Since A4 races are restricted to a max distance fo 80km, they rarely end up racing against A1/A2.

manwithaplan

Raam wrote: »

@ Rok On: no harm to give it a shot tonight. It can give you something by which to gauge yourself for next year.

Can you buy a day licence on the night (if that's not a contradiction in terms)?

I am going to regret asking that question.

Raam

manwithaplan wrote: »

Can you buy a day licence on the night (if that's not a contradiction in terms)?

I am going to regret asking that question.

Our club sec posted this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67652929&postcount=10

Yes its open to Non-Swordscc Members. All you need is a Cycling Ireland Licence, €5 sign-on fee, a Helmet and bike

manwithaplan

Ignore that question. I see it's answered in the other thread.

Coronation Street it is. Happy days!

tawfeeredux

kennyb3 wrote: »

And just to expand further you may have a mix of A1's - A4's in any group, although obviously you wont find many A1's to A3's in limit but it is possible

Is this in the club league? Would that be because some people in, say A4 category, use the club league to test themselves in a stronger category?

manwithaplan

@Raam, RobFowl said that one day licences cannot be issued because there's no CI Commissaire. It's obviously open to non-members but only licensed ones. Thanks.

Raam

tawfeeredux wrote: »

Is this in the club league? Would that be because some people in, say A4 category, use the club league to test themselves in a stronger category?

Yep. Plenty of A4 riders in our club who ride scratch or close enough to it in the club league.

Chips Lovell

tawfeeredux wrote: »

Is this in the club league? Would that be because some people in, say A4 category, use the club league to test themselves in a stronger category?

Not necessarily. People in club leagues are usually graded on their performance in the league alone. What it could mean is that you might find yourself in the same category as someone a grade above or below you Cycling Ireland categories. This would rarely happen with a newcomer though and is more likely in the higher up groups.

Eyeballing our own club league I'd say Limit and Semi-Limit are made up almost exlusively of A4 riders or those unregistered to race open races. Semi-Scrath would see a mix of A4 and A3, while Scratch would usually have A2 and A1.

Inquitus

What sort of solo avg speed over what sort of distance would one need to be averaging to realistically consider staying with the A4 / Slowest Group?

Lumen

Inquitus wrote: »

What sort of solo avg speed over what sort of distance would one need to be averaging to realistically consider staying with the A4 / Slowest Group?

30kph on the flat for an hour, ish. With a large margin of error.

I wouldn't avoid racing because you think you're too slow. Someone has to be the slowest.

kennyb3

Lumen wrote: »

30kph on the flat for an hour, ish. With a large margin of error.

I wouldn't avoid racing because you think you're too slow. Someone has to be the slowest.

Just to add to this: if you are slightly slower for an hour you ll prob be grand in limit, you'd prob need to be closer to 32km/ph or more on your own for an A4 race id imagine so it all depends.

At the end of the day the best way is to give it a go, and have no expectations. If you get dropped so be it, you ll improve for the experience and can come back again the following week.

Plus try a club spin and you ll get a feel for what you need to do.

Funkyzeit

Excellent thread.
I'd love to get into it aswell but would have a huge amount of work to do over winter.

Is there a handicap system whereby if you do well in A4 you HAVE to move up to A3?
Would hate to think as a newbie I'd be racing against fella's who shouldn't really be an A4 at all?