Designer outlet shopping for city

Trotter

merlante wrote: »

Some of us are looking at the bigger picture, and the situation you've described could easily come to pass if out of town shopping becomes the way of things.

I think the trouble is we're already most of the way there. I know a couple of people trying to run businesses in the city and the footfall on regular days when theres nothing special going on just isnt enough to keep the business viable.

I would argue that an outlet store would attract people to Waterford who wouldnt normally have come in the first place. If 10,000 people come to the city for the outlet 'village' and 2000 of them go to Waterford city for a while on the way home, thats 2000 shoppers that never would have been there.

dayshah

Silverado wrote: »

If this developer is so confident then why are there so many empty shop units in the city centre. Did he even consult one auctioneer about the state of retail business in Waterford?

Even if he has the guts to press on with a shopping centre project why can't he just take over the New St. centre which already has the green light. Perhaps TKMaxx might be interested in becoming the anchor tenant.

At any rate it would be irresponsible of Waterford planner to grant permission for a project which will truly kill the city centre. Do they really think that they can afford to lose their life blood, the Rates, from even more city centre shops.

Yes, there are lots of city centre options. This would be suitable for a remodeled New Gate. There is the option for O'Connell St., making use of the nice (well they would be nice if they were painted) Georgian Buildings. There the possibility of the old gas-works site. The existing businesses there largely don't need a city centre location.

For once I actually agree with Yes Boss (even if he continues with an annoying use of exclamation marks). These are not factory outlets. If Sporthouse, Azzuri, or Hasbro opened factory outlets I'd have no problem with it, but this is just discount retail.


In my view all the city centre lacks that this development offers is car-parking. I suggested before that we dig under Ballybricken and the Glen, but in 2/3 storey underground car parks, and cover them over again with grass. The place would look much the same, and we would have plenty of parking. Also the city centre is easier to get to now due to the new road.

O Riain

Considering the big deal that was made out of the TK Maxx incident, the fact that we have an overall plan to strengthen the centre and the fact that we are hosting a conference on keeping city centres strong I think it would be very hypocritical to grant planning permission for this.
A lot of people here say we need to look at the big picture and do it for the sake of jobs, but the big picture is that a bustling city centre offers up infinitely more jobs than these ring road developments ever will, busy centres are also very attractive to tourists, imagine us spending all this money and effort on the new Waterford crystal centre and the Viking triangle only for people to come and see a ghost town.
We need busy cafes and bars that feed off shoppers if we are ever going to become an attractive city and not "just Waterford" like we have always been. Could you imagine if a home was found for these shops in the centre, it could be the kick start Waterford needs to start truly becoming what it's capable of!

Yes Boss

Trotter wrote: »

I think the trouble is we're already most of the way there. I know a couple of people trying to run businesses in the city and the footfall on regular days when theres nothing special going on just isnt enough to keep the business viable.

I would argue that an outlet store would attract people to Waterford who wouldnt normally have come in the first place. If 10,000 people come to the city for the outlet 'village' and 2000 of them go to Waterford city for a while on the way home, thats 2000 shoppers that never would have been there.

This development would suck the disposable income from the residents of Waterford - compounding the situation you describe above.

Trotter

Yes Boss wrote: »

This development would suck the disposable income from the residents of Waterford - compounding the situation you describe above.

No more than any multi national shop in Waterford city would. The argument would be that wages would be put back into the economy with locals working in the city. The same could be said for the retail outlet. And it could be argued that the majority of customers in the retail outlet would be from further afield than we normally see anyway.

Yes Boss

Trotter wrote: »

No more than any multi national shop in Waterford city would. The argument would be that wages would be put back into the economy with locals working in the city. The same could be said for the retail outlet. And it could be argued that the majority of customers in the retail outlet would be from further afield than we normally see anyway.

Sorry but your narrow perspective (jobs), just don't stand up. A development of this nature will detract from the city centre. It would probably be the final nail in some of the city retailer's coffin, thus leading to a loss of jobs and a further erosion of the City Centre.

Every person that posts on this forum are in favor of creating jobs in Waterford but not at any expense or from a short sighted perspective...

merlante

Trotter wrote: »

I think the trouble is we're already most of the way there. I know a couple of people trying to run businesses in the city and the footfall on regular days when theres nothing special going on just isnt enough to keep the business viable.

I would argue that an outlet store would attract people to Waterford who wouldnt normally have come in the first place. If 10,000 people come to the city for the outlet 'village' and 2000 of them go to Waterford city for a while on the way home, thats 2000 shoppers that never would have been there.

Whether or not we're most of the way there, we can at least all agree, that Waterford city centre is in a delicate place at the moment, and needs to be bolstered at all costs.

Your logic for how the outlet village could bring 2,000 people into the city centre does not take into account a number of other factors:
1) What's to stop businesses leaving the city for the ORR, where the 10,000 are? How long before the ORR has a Butlerstown like entrance every 200 yards, there are tons of traffic, and we all have to outlet surf in our cars in order to compare a few pairs of shoes?

2) Although people might come to Waterford to an outlet village like that, Waterford city centre is still our best retail offering. By building the outlet village, you might weaken our main offering in numerous ways. Instead by bolstering our main offering with new outlet retailers, we improve the footfall in the city centre and everyone wins.

3) Other locations that feature similar facilities in a strong city centre will have a competitive advantage over Waterford, whose offering is spread out and difficult to locate for those not living in the city.

4) Does anyone believe that Waterford will attract the level of shoppers that, say, Galway attracts without a vibrant, strong core?

I think it would be better for Waterford and for jobs in the long run if by following good planning principles, we end up denying an outlet village that would have attracted 10,000 to the ORR if it meant that something smaller or more spread out went to the city centre that might attract an extra 2,000. That 2,000 extra people will benefit all shops, because they will hit a lot more shops than they would have if they had to drive around the ORR and back into town. Also, the city centre is well sign posted and well facilitated for shopping already.

I am also a bit suspicious about outlets that will *only* open on the ORR and nowhere else. So what, you can make plenty of money out here, but there is no business case in the centre? Rubbish. TkMaxx wanted low rent and easy planning, who could blame them, but then they don't have our interests at heart. They will soon open in the city centre after a bit more hassle for them, but they will do just as well, the businesses around them will do better, and our centre will be healthier. If we are consistent, then we will win out. If we allow businesses to have all the benefits of a city nearby, paid for by struggling city centre businesses, whilst offering nothing themselves, then we will regret it down the road.

The existence of Waterford Crystal on the Mall has had a transformational effect on the whole city centre, for those who haven't noticed. When it was on the Cork rd., tourists bypassed the centre, now those same tourists are spending more time and a lot more money in Waterford. The same is true of shopping.

I am 100% in favour of developing Waterford as a thriving shopping destination, but, in planning, tough decisions have to be made that might hurt in the short term but will be of huge benefit in the medium and long terms. If this recession/credit crunch/banking crisis/housing bubble has taught us nothing else, surely it is the benefit of long term thinking.

Trotter

Fair points really and I can see where you're coming from. I'd still hope that something like this would be close enough to the city and be of a distinct type to benefit the city. As it stands, shopping in the city hasnt much to offer some people. I'd hope this would be a catalyst for business in the city. I agree that the core of the city shopping has to be good and protected. Im just not sure that the Kildare Village type setup close to the RSC would be overall detrimental to the city. Having said that, without good transport links, it would be. Im trying to keep an open mind on this one and learn a bit from the other opinions in the thread. I still think though that theres a home for both city centre shopping and an outlet village close to the city if its set up properly. Interestingly 85% in favour on the poll so far.

Bards

personally I would love to see all shopping in the city centre. but I don;t think we can wait 10 more years while the deckchairs get shuffled around again. The last 10 years has been a lost oppurtunity due to serial objectors.

the questions to ask are

1.) will the City benefit from extra footfall that this regional centre will create

2.) will the increased tax take help the City Council fulfil their ambition as reagrds to tourist attractions and become a tourist destination.

3.) will it hold off competition from neighbouring jurisdictions who would just love to allow this type of development and thus rape waterford of the extra revenue it needs

4.) with the extra footfall will other retailers who are offering "New Season" stock sit up and take notice

Just look at Kildare - Did Kildare Village kill off kildare town centre & Newbridge - the answer is No it did not - In fact it helped to cement their town centers and make them stronger.

at some stage, we are going to have to take a leap of faith and look at the bigger economic picture and see how such a destination can literaly put "Waterford" on the map

wmpdd3

South Kilkenny is still at the end of the Waterford-Dublin motorway. If Waterford says no, will you be so happy if the outlet located in Slieve Rue?

Silverado

wmpdd3 wrote: »

South Kilkenny is still at the end of the Waterford-Dublin motorway. If Waterford says no, will you be so happy if the outlet located in Slieve Rue?

Would it not be wiser to take over one (or both) of the two empty shopping centres in Ferrybank? At least they might get some use at last.

what recession?

Everyone seems to be talking about the 'strengths' of the city. I'm sorry, I must have missed all of these supposed strengths every time i've been in the city! As far as I know, every other city in Ireland has a Golden Disc, Tesco, Xtra Vision, Dunnes, McDonalds, etc. If I didn't live here I wouldn't even THINK of going anywhere near the city. There is nothing of interest to me, and nothing you can't find in other cities.

As far as 'luxury' goods go, the only ones who might be put out of business by this are Heroes and Fitzgeralds, and as far as I'm concerned if they charged half decent prices they'd be fine. Some people are saying that we'll have less disposable income because of it, if that's the case then it's because we WANT the items there. Are you going to tell Auto Bolands to stop selling Range Rovers because we want more disposable income? No, it doesn't work like that.

I've been to Kildare 3 or 4 times and spent thousands in total, why shouldn't that money be coming to Waterford? Obviously the profits aren't staying, but the jobs they provide will definitely be worth more than the business lost to Fitzgeralds and Heroes, I can tell you that much. Any time I've gone to Kildare Village, I have went back into Kildare for food and to look around - sure, not everybody will but some will for sure.

That Pitch and Putt course is hardly the centre of life in Waterford. A handful of people use it, I don't know who even owns it at this stage, but an Outlet Village would be a lot more useful than what it is now. If any of you have actually been in Kildare Village, you'll understand why they don't want to just shove them in the middle of town. It's supposed to be somewhat quiet/relaxed. I don't know what would be quiet or relaxing about walking around O Connell St., I'd barely walk down that Street now - why would I want to go there, or why would any desirable shop set up there? Eventually all those buildings will be needed again, as will all the warehouses in the industrial estates and the unfinished shopping centres - in the long run, if you fill up all the vacant places we have now, you'll just end up having to build more anyway.

dayshah

Bertie Ahern is in on this.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahernlink-firm-aims-to-build-white-elephant-retail-outlet-2341210.html

comeraghs

I appreciate the concerns about the city centre
BUT
lets be honest ...if this doesn´t go ahead in Waterford it´ll just go to Cork, Clonmel, Limerick or Kilkenny. If it is built in Waterford it´ll bring people down here for a day of shopping and 95% of those who come will then go into the city centre too. One of the conditions should be that Waterford tourism be given a unit in the centre to promote the city & county to shoppers.

The money this will bring for the city corp should be put towards providing events & attractions in the city centre .....smaller units should be rented to artists/sculpters etc .... Street entertainment should be provided everyday and more festivals should be funded ...

In a perfect world it would be built in the city centre .... but these guys have a site on the Cork Road & if it is to be in Waterford it will be here

comeraghs

When is a decision due to be made on this?

Yes Boss

No decision to be made - the application was invalid because the applicant did not supply an "Environmental Impact Statement". Therefore, the file was returned to the applicant!!!