Driving: the Speed Debate.

challengemaster

ohthebaby wrote: »

I just wish people would understand that speed kills.

Doesn't really. Stupidity and bad drivers do.

The whole speed kills thing is such tripe. If thats true, then how come in Germany, parts of the autobahn allow you to drive at 300km/h+ legally, and yet it's one of the safest roads in the world....

I seriously wish people would stop regurgitating the crap that the RSA/parents/etc feed them without thinking it through first.

Grindylow

challengemaster wrote: »

Doesn't really. Stupidity and bad drivers do.

The whole speed kills thing is such tripe. If thats true, then how come in Germany, parts of the autobahn allow you to drive at 300km/h+ legally, and yet it's one of the safest roads in the world....

I seriously wish people would stop regurgitating the crap that the RSA/parents/etc feed them without thinking it through first.

I'm sure she didn't technically mean speed ACTUALLY kills. Probably that speeding can kill!

almostnever

challengemaster wrote: »

Doesn't really. Stupidity and bad drivers do.

The whole speed kills thing is such tripe. If thats true, then how come in Germany, parts of the autobahn allow you to drive at 300km/h+ legally, and yet it's one of the safest roads in the world....

I seriously wish people would stop regurgitating the crap that the RSA/parents/etc feed them without thinking it through first.

While stupidity and bad driving/decisions obviously do lead to accidents, it's a sad fact that road traffic accidents can happen to the best of drivers and can be as a result of an unfortunate twist of fate. And if one of the vehicles involved is speeding, there is a massive increase in the chances that someone will die or sustain horrific and life altering injury.

So I really don't think that warning about speeding and its dangers is anything like "regurgitating crap" at all, I think it's something that a lot of people need to hear and understand. Anyway, perhaps speeding can be considered a form of "bad driving", in which case these terrible crashes should serve as a cautionary tale. What better way to curb bad driving and prevent accidents than effective education and warning?

MavisDavis

Lads, let's just go with "speeding does not help the situation" and not argue about it.

Those poor families.

ohthebaby

challengemaster wrote: »

Doesn't really. Stupidity and bad drivers do.

The whole speed kills thing is such tripe. If thats true, then how come in Germany, parts of the autobahn allow you to drive at 300km/h+ legally, and yet it's one of the safest roads in the world....

I seriously wish people would stop regurgitating the crap that the RSA/parents/etc feed them without thinking it through first.

Going at 300km/hr on a German Autobahn, (which I assume in most parts would be a massive straight road somewhat equivalent to our motorways, void of extremely sharp bends, hidden pot holes, pedestrians, etc,) is a lot different to flying around the bendy backroads of Ireland at 80-100km/hr, something that happens all the time in my part of the country. If you meet a car at a bad bend, like the one on the road that I live on, driving at this speed of course it's the stupid driving of the other driver that's going to cause an accident but just like the post Insect Overlord referred us to, it's the impact from the speed that's going to cause a death.

I live on one of bendiest, smallest roads I have ever seen in my life. I imagine the carnage left from somebody leaving the road and hitting a wall or something at a ridiculous speed would be a damn sight worse than somebody travelling at a speed suitable for the tiny road. It was this kind of thing I was referring to when I said speed kills. It makes me both sad and angry that some young people in my parts, my friends and neighbours, do not have any sense with regards to speed or sensible driving on these roads. I just hope they cop on soon before anything bad happens to them. And may those poor people this morning rest in peace.

MavisDavis is right, let's just leave it. May they all RIP.

Midnight_EG

You'd be surprised at the quality of the Autobahn >.>

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

Doesn't really. Stupidity and bad drivers do.

The whole speed kills thing is such tripe. If thats true, then how come in Germany, parts of the autobahn allow you to drive at 300km/h+ legally, and yet it's one of the safest roads in the world....

I seriously wish people would stop regurgitating the crap that the RSA/parents/etc feed them without thinking it through first.

I remember them telling us in TY that a large proportion of accidents are one car accidents. People lose control and kill themselves and the other passengers, basically.

This is the reason why there's such a difference between the Autobahn and the bendy sort-of roads ohthebaby mentions.

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember them telling us in TY that a large proportion of accidents are one car accidents. People lose control and kill themselves and the other passengers, basically.

This is the reason why there's such a difference between the Autobahn and the bendy sort-of roads ohthebaby mentions.

As you say it, a rather large percentage of single car accidents are suicides believe it or not.

Midnight_EG

Midnight_EG wrote: »

As you say it, a rather large percentage of single car accidents are suicides believe it or not.

Not such a large percentage. Maybe larger than you'd think, but a comfortable majority aren't suicides.

Well, of crashes. 'Accidents' cannot be suicides, you see.

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

Not such a large percentage. Maybe larger than you'd think, but a comfortable majority aren't suicides.

Well, of crashes. 'Accidents' cannot be suicides, you see.

When the circumstances are near-perfect, where's the reason for crashing...as is like most of them tbh

Midnight_EG

Midnight_EG wrote: »

When the circumstances are near-perfect, where's the reason for crashing...as is like most of them tbh

Speed, tbh. That's kind of the point of what everybody's been saying. Conditions may have been near-perfect, but these people aren't rally drivers.

challengemaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Not such a large percentage. Maybe larger than you'd think, but a comfortable majority aren't suicides.

Well, of crashes. 'Accidents' cannot be suicides, you see.

Maybe someone should inform the RSA of that then, as they like to lump everything together to suit their stats and campaigns.

Deleted User wrote: »

Speed, tbh. That's kind of the point of what everybody's been saying. Conditions may have been near-perfect, but these people aren't rally drivers.

You're just assuming the cause was speed, because of...nothing, really. Why not assume the other way around? Someone wants to commit suicide, therefore they drive as fast as they can into a wall. Speed didn't cause them to lose control, to drive into the wall, anything. It just seems easier to believe the other option, that it was an 'accident' and they lost control or some such, especially due to preconceptions.

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

Maybe someone should inform the RSA of that then, as they like to lump everything together to suit their stats and campaigns.

If the RSA counted suicides as accidents, the road death statistics would be higher.

So as it happens, it does the opposite of suiting their campaigns. :pac:

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

Speed, tbh. That's kind of the point of what everybody's been saying. Conditions may have been near-perfect, but these people aren't rally drivers.

Speed itself doesn't kill, it's the impact and ultimately the driver who kills themselves. Speed is simply a factor in it. I could go out and crash at 20mph and I may die, whereas I may crash at 80mph and live. It's all too big a variable to simply say that speed is the common fault.

Deleted User wrote: »

If the RSA counted suicides as accidents, the road death statistics would be higher.

So as it happens, it does the opposite of suiting their campaigns. :pac:

The RSA do whatever they like to suit themselves, they count every single crash on the road as an 18 year old male in a boy racer car breaking the speed limit on a backroad with a female passenger who apparently dies.

Midnight_EG

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Speed itself doesn't kill, it's the impact and ultimately the driver who kills themselves. Speed is simply a factor in it. I could go out and crash at 20mph and I may die, whereas I may crash at 80mph and live. It's all too big a variable to simply say that speed is the common fault.

The main idea is that they go out of control because of speed, not because the extra momentum in the crash make it more likely they'll die - it doesn't, with the design of modern cars, in a lot of cases.

The RSA do whatever they like to suit themselves, they count every single crash on the road as an 18 year old male in a boy racer car breaking the speed limit on a backroad with a female passenger who apparently dies.

Funny, looking at rsa.ie I can't find any statistics on 18-year old boy racers breaking the speed limit on a backroad with a female passenger who apparently dies.

You may be confusing the RSA's statistics with the fact that invariably newspapers only make stories out of 18-year old boy racers, and not all the other crashes.


Now I'll just make the final point - speed is not the only killer on roads, maybe it's not even the biggest, but speed can make people lose control of their cars, it does lead to more road deaths in this way and (this is the most important point) it's the factor in the number of crashes per year that we can actually do the most about.

The defence rests >.>

challengemaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Funny, looking at rsa.ie I can't find any statistics on 18-year old boy racers breaking the speed limit on a backroad with a female passenger who apparently dies.

You may be confusing the RSA's statistics with the fact that invariably newspapers only make stories out of 18-year old boy racers, and not all the other crashes.

You may have overlooked this gem.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/He-drives-she-dies/

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

The main idea is that they go out of control because of speed, not because the extra momentum in the crash make it more likely they'll die - it doesn't, with the design of modern cars, in a lot of cases.

The sudden stop is what kills you, not the speed, speed is irrelevant in any single car crash IMO. Control is something any driver should have of their car, and if they don't take a day out where they basically lump the car sideways in a carpark to know their limits, well then they deserve to lose control sometime. You have to know how to react, whether it be at 20mph or 80mph, it's all about the reaction time. Some people panic, and speed can't be blamed on that. Some people just blank out, again speed can't be blamed on that. It's not knowing what to do that's the problem, not speed. All my opinion of course.

Deleted User wrote: »

Funny, looking at rsa.ie I can't find any statistics on 18-year old boy racers breaking the speed limit on a backroad with a female passenger who apparently dies.

You may be confusing the RSA's statistics with the fact that invariably newspapers only make stories out of 18-year old boy racers, and not all the other crashes.

You're not aware of the 'He Drives, She Dies' campaign...are you?

Watch all of the RSA's ad's, they're all about exactly what I've described.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now I'll just make the final point - speed is not the only killer on roads, maybe it's not even the biggest, but speed can make people lose control of their cars, it does lead to more road deaths in this way and (this is the most important point) it's the factor in the number of crashes per year that we can actually do the most about.

My first note will agree with this, and I agree in saying speed can make a driver lose control, but not all of the time.

Deleted User wrote: »

The defence rests >.>

Opposite of defendant alludes me atm, rests :P

ohthebaby

Ok this argument probably has gone a bit far for this thread but I'd just like to say there's no need to be driving at silly speeds on small Irish roads. That is all.

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

You may have overlooked this gem.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/He-drives-she-dies/

Fair enough.

Although, the stats are true - they just underhandedly preceded them with an article based on no evidence to trick people.
People should think about statistics for themselves anyway. If they try to imply causality with no evidence, or get taken in by subjective arguments, that's their business.

And I just saw your point about suicides there. Tbh, you're only conjecturing that people who die due to speed are deliberately trying to kill themselves. Some are, probably, but there's no evidence to suggest that anywhere near a majority do.

Midnight_EG

Midnight_EG wrote: »

The sudden stop is what kills you, not the speed, speed is irrelevant in any single car crash IMO. Control is something any driver should have of their car, and if they don't take a day out where they basically lump the car sideways in a carpark to know their limits, well then they deserve to lose control sometime.

This is the last point I'll come back to, lest we completely derail these argghs.
EDIT: Actually, since you said speed is irrelevant in your opinion, I'll just be slightly glib and say that I trust the opinions of psychologists and neuroscientists who researched human reaction times more.

People are tested and certified to drive at normal speed limits, and taught how to do so. Nobody who hasn't been trained to drive at higher speeds should be allowed to do so, because driving is about practice and experience.
Even professional drivers crash at high speeds tbh.

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the last point I'll come back to, lest we completely derail these argghs.
EDIT: Actually, since you said speed is irrelevant in your opinion, I'll just be slightly glib and say that I trust the opinions of psychologists and neuroscientists who researched human reaction times more.

People are tested and certified to drive at normal speed limits, and taught how to do so. Nobody who hasn't been trained to drive at higher speeds should be allowed to do so, because driving is about practice and experience.
Even professional drivers crash at high speeds tbh.

Single car crashes meaning just one car involved, if that validates your statement? :]


Don't think of me as an aggresive asshole btw, it's just a topic I feel strongly about... :P

Midnight_EG

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Single car crashes meaning just one car involved, if that validates your statement? :]


Don't think of me as an aggresive asshole btw, it's just a topic I feel strongly about... :P

Of course single car crashes meaning just one car involved. :pac: Can't think of any other kind of single-car crashes.

Midnight_EG

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course single car crashes meaning just one car involved. :pac: Can't think of any other kind of single-car crashes.

I didn't hyphenate :mad: :P

Insect Overlord

Just thought I'd start this thread to keep the topic separate from the Aaaaarrrghhh thread. It's something a lot of people feel passionately about, so I reckon it deserves its own thread.

highlydebased

I have many many gripes with the RSA and their "campaigns".

Speed does not kill. "Speeding" is classified as me driving at 80kph on a massive huge open road in Limerick that has a 50kph limit because its in a "built up" area, despite that there are no entrances etc onto said road. The road is of motorway standard.

I think that if you are going to drive in an unsuitable fashion (no respect for yourself, your car, other road users or the law) well then you probably deserve an accident. There is just as much chance of you having an accident in this case doing 30mph on a backroad as there is 80mph on a backroad.

There needs to be a clear line drawn between "Speed", "agressive driving" and merely pushing on. I've said it on the motoring forum and I'll say it here. Speed limits need to be assessed on a case by case basis. Some roads are designated a far too low limit and some an unsuitably high limit. Where users are forced to stick to a unrealistically low limit like glue, it causes frustration amongst others and makes drivers to stupid things and hence how accidents happen.

I think the whole stigma about "speed" needs to be changed to be honest.

As for this "he drives she dies" thing, I find it highly highly offensive. Do they not realise that he could probably well die too? If I have people in the car with me, girls or not, I drive with the same level of level-headedness as much as possible as if i were alone.

Neon-Circles

Neon-Circles wrote: »

I think the whole stigma about "speed" needs to be changed to be honest.

I think it's not unreasonable to ask people to go slower than they would like in the interest of safety in the case where something unexpected does happen where they would need more reaction time.

The rest of the arguments seem to be about the semantics of "speed kills". If I were to say "speed can lead to loss of control, particularly on bendy roads, and lowers the time in which a driver may react in case of a person or other car suddenly getting in the way, and thus leads to deaths in certain cases" would there be any arguments?

highlydebased

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's not unreasonable to ask people to go slower than they would like in the interest of safety in the case where something unexpected does happen where they would need more reaction time.

Yes, but thats not entirely practical. If thats the case we'd all be driving at 30kph. On every road.

Midnight_EG

I'll get into this again at a later time, I'd like to see how this fares between you two atm :]



Conor, just for the record, do you drive at all...?

QueenOfLeon

I think the "He drives she dies" campaign is the most sexist, ridiculous statement you could make! In my experience when younger guys are driving, whether or not they like to push it a bit, they have taken care when they have passengers in the car. That stupid campaign isn't going to do anything apart from worry parents that every young male driver is out there to take risks and injure their passengers.

I think someone speeding along a narrow, bendy country road is obviously extremely dangerous, when a lot of roads are barely wide enough for 1 car. Speed alone has the potential to do great damage on these roads with a head on collision around a bend, for example, but the driver should still be skilled enough to react as quickly as possible to avoid as much damage as possible. On a good standard national road or the motorway, it is of course possible to drive faster than the speed limit and safely at the same time. There are a lot of other things that cause accidents, car faults (as in potd), distractions like phones or passengers or just generally bad driving.

Midnight_EG

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I think someone speeding along a narrow, bendy country road is obviously extremely dangerous, when a lot of roads are barely wide enough for 1 car. Speed alone has the potential to do great damage on these roads with a head on collision around a bend, for example, but the driver should still be skilled enough to react as quickly as possible to avoid as much damage as possible. On a good standard national road or the motorway, it is of course possible to drive faster than the speed limit and safely at the same time. There are a lot of other things that cause accidents, car faults (as in potd), distractions like phones or passengers or just generally bad driving.

Should a certain 9 cars be left out of this part? :pac:

sock puppet

Deleted User wrote: »

And I just saw your point about suicides there. Tbh, you're only conjecturing that people who die due to speed are deliberately trying to kill themselves. Some are, probably, but there's no evidence to suggest that anywhere near a majority do.

There never will be any evidence though as it's difficult to prove without a suicide note.