Poor people shouldn't have more than two kids?

30H!3

It would make more sense to just get rid of childrens allowance or child benefit or whatever its called these days. Then the knackers having 5, 6, 7 kids would think twice about getting pregnant because it would mean they couldn't afford "de latest sky digital package" or "de bleedin new air max" etc.

flag123

Try telling that to them folk in Africa. Or any other third world area or country....at least then the less children they have the more attention(food, water etc) they get rather than doing the "zero for-sight option" of having loads of children and over populating the globe.

thanks

Owwmykneecap

King Felix wrote: »

Nobody should have more than two kids.

Two adults, two kids. Zero population growth.

Apart from all that curing of disease we're doing. We should stop that too yeah?

King Felix

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Apart from all that curing of disease we're doing. We should stop that too yeah?

Why would we stop that?

It should never be put into law but it is a good idea.

dvpower

King Felix wrote: »

Nobody should have more than two kids.

Two adults, two kids. Zero population growth.

Population decline actually.

King Felix

dvpower wrote: »

Population decline actually.

We've been through all that. 2.1 children.etc.

dvpower

http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/fertilityrate.htm

In developed countries, the necessary replacement rate is about 2.1. Since replacement can not occur if a child does not grow to maturity and have their own offspring, the need for the extra .1 child (a 5% buffer) per woman is due to the potential for death and those who choose or are unable to have children. In less developed countries, the replacement rate is around 2.3 due to higher childhood and adult death rates.

bnt

whiteman19 wrote: »

no one has mentioned bringing a child into the world for love.

I don't quite understand this mindset. Of course you will love your child when it's here, but that's a different issue.

But why would you conceive a child out of "love"? At that point in the process, what is there to "love"? I would call that love for the idea of a child, and I think that's part of the problem. It's easy enough to fall in love with an idea, but not so easy to deal with the practical results, and this is one difference that's under discussion here, I think. All people are capable of love - it's a human fundamental - but not all people are equally capable of supporting and nurturing a child to its full potential. "Love" is only the beginning, and it's not enough any more.

henryporter

Tordelback wrote: »

WTF?

ie if their parents gave a rats ar$e about where their kids were have the time they wouldn't be ending up dead is what I was saying - sorry of its above your level of thinking

coffee_cake

bnt wrote: »

But why would you conceive a child out of "love"? At that point in the process, what is there to "love"? I would call that love for the idea of a child,

I suppose you're right.
I think it's when you're so much in love, you think the world would be a better place with a mini-version of your partner running around.

RolandIRL

Septic Leper wrote: »

Anything under 50K would suffice in this environment!!!!

tell that to my parents. if that had been introduced, me and my 2 next youngest brothers would never have been born.
my parents didn't plan to have us just so they could claim child benefit. we were able to survive on much less than 50K, and my parents didn't claim the dole. try rearing 5 children (who when i was born were all under 11). we didn't have many luxuries (than say someone who only had 2 children) and all my clothes for most of my childhood were hand-me-downs.

yes there will be people who will exploit the system, but should everyone who claims the dole or whatever be punished for something a very small minority do? yes there will be people who will be dicks and spend the money on fags and booze but what about the single mother who works hard for her children to try and give them some type of a decent life? should she be punished for the sins of someone else?

OldNotWIse

starbelgrade wrote: »

Article 41.1.1˚ of the Constitution recognises the family as “the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law” and guarantees its protection by the State.

Equality before the law is also guaranteed by Article 40.1.

So yes, it is against the very founding principals of our state to limit the number of children people have, based on something as arbitrary as financial means.

On top of that, the right to found a family is protected under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

In addition to this, the International Conference on Population and Development's view is that it is the right of the individual, not the state, to determine the number of children people have.

If people think that this is a good road to go down, then we simply have to look at China where their one-child policy is both in principle and in practice, a violation of human rights & where it's enforcement has led to bribery, coercion, compulsory sterilization, forced abortion, and infanticide.

Anyone who voted "yes" in this poll should be f*cking ashamed of themselves.

I voted yes, and I am not ashamed of myself (nor should I be) because I do not expect the taxpayer to pay for my children's upbringing.

Your reference cites no automatic right to HAVE a family, only rights assigned to families ALREADY in existance.

OldNotWIse

starbelgrade wrote: »

So - tell me this... who paid for your education? Did you ever use public transport before you started working? Who subsidised that? When you were born, who paid for the hospital costs?

Funding education is a far better system than funding scumbags who cant keep their legs together. If someone is funded to go to college then chances are they will become working professionals and will earn high wages and pay high tax. In their working lives, they will give back a lot more than they recieved.

Throwing money and free housing at people who dont work and simply procreate does NOT yield as good a return.

starbelgrade

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I voted yes, and I am not ashamed of myself (nor should I be) because I do not expect the taxpayer to pay for my children's upbringing.

Your reference cites no automatic right to HAVE a family, only rights assigned to families ALREADY in existance.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Funding education is a far better system than funding scumbags who cant keep their legs together. If someone is funded to go to college then chances are they will become working professionals and will earn high wages and pay high tax. In their working lives, they will give back a lot more than they recieved.

Throwing money and free housing at people who dont work and simply procreate does NOT yield as good a return.

You seem to be of the opinion that you will never have any problems paying for your children's upbringing. That means paying for the full cost of their education, health care & all other expenses. The chances are however, that if you do have children - like most people, their education & health care will be subsidised in some way by other tax payers who earn more, have no children or both.

You are also presuming that either you or your partner, or both, will be high earners until your children are able to look after themselves (mid 20's if they go to college) & that none of your children ever suffer a long term illness.

Also, a college education is no guarantee of high earnings - if it were, there wouldn't be graduates emmigrating from Ireland in their droves.

There is nothing black & white in life and nothing is ever guaranteed - you would do well to remember this.

eimearcmh

I don't know if shes been mentioned already but Nadya Suleman and her 14 kids come to mind when reading this! She is currently without a partner or job.

Under our laws we can't prevent anyone from reproducing either.

dvpower

eimearcmh wrote: »

I don't know if shes been mentioned already but Nadya Suleman and her 14 kids come to mind when reading this! She is currently without a partner or job.

Is she poor? She was offered lucrative employment.

In February 2009, Vivid Entertainment offered Suleman one million dollars to star in a pornographic movie.[34] Suleman has declined their offer.[35]

eimearcmh

dvpower wrote: »

Is she poor? She was offered lucrative employment.

Its may be for the best that she declined to accept that role;). Obviously with the octuplets and her other 6 kids she needed/needs a lot of financial assistance from the state. While i don't know what her financial status is its clear that without the generous support of people she would have struggled. Dr Phil did a lot to help her too. Imagine the amount of nappies that those babies are going through:eek:. Thankfully the babies are all well (as far as i know anyways).

jonsnow

I find this thread both hilarious and disturbing.

Amanda Craig is about as disconnected from working class people as it is possible to be in the UK.She was born into a wealthy family that could afford to send her to one of the most expensive schools in the UK and then onto Cambridge.She then married another wealthy Old Etonian Economist.She has been given every possible advantage in life and then chalks up her good fortune to the choices that shes made as opposed to being born into a life of immense privilege. If she had been born into a sink estate in liverpool we,d have never heard of her and she,d probably be one of the welfare claimants with 7 kids that she finds it so easy to malign.

Ireland is a deeply class ridden and unfair society-one of the most unfair in the western world.It has always been that way"ha penny look down on penny" as my gran says. The amount of hatred spewed at the Irish underclass has been sickening -"knackers" "scum" "skangers" "bums" "breeding like rabbits" etc etc etc.As if they weren,t fellow human beings and citizens but were vermin.

Rightwingers like to bang on and on about personal responsibility as if these people had a great plethora of options open to them.They were born into a part of our society which the vast majority of middle class irish people do not give a **** about..It is the Irish middle class which calls the shots and we have decided to let them rot in inner city hellholes and sprawling sink estates.Every promise that has ever been made to these people has been broken.The smug middle class posters on boards think that they have got to were they are in life because of their "hard work" never acknowledging the headstart that they have had in life and all the unfair advantages that they have accrued over the "skangers"Never conceding that they were lucky and that if fortunes scales had tipped another way then they would be one of the stella drinking proles that they hate so much.

I believe that if you swapped a doctors son with a gangsters son in the baby ward of a hospital the doctors biological son would turn out a gangsters son and vica versa because you are shaped by the choices you are given and personal responsibility in the end will have little to do with it.

Finally if having loads of kids and living off social welfare wasn,t a result of poor education, dysfunctional relationships and severely limited options but instead was some sort of glorious benefits bonanza then how come so many middleclass irish women aren't taking advantage of it but instead are flying over to the UK in such huge numbers to have abortions every year!!!.

Sticky_Fingers

Amanda Craig is about as disconnected from working class people as it is possible to be in the UK.She was born into a wealthy family that could afford to send her to one of the most expensive schools in the UK and then onto Cambridge.She then married another wealthy Old Etonian Economist.She has been given every possible advantage in life and then chalks up her good fortune to the choices that shes made as opposed to being born into a life of immense privilege. If she had been born into a sink estate in liverpool we,d have never heard of her and she,d probably be one of the welfare claimants with 7 kids that she finds it so easy to malign.

What exactly do you object to, the messenger or the message. Sure she has had a privileged upbringing, does that diminish the validity of her opinion just because you seem to have a problem with her background. Would you place more weight on her opinion if she had in fact been born on a Liverpudlian sink estate or would you chalk up her views as being ill-informed and a symptom of her poor education.

Ireland is a deeply class ridden and unfair society-one of the most unfair in the western world.It has always been that way"ha penny look down on penny" as my gran says. The amount of hatred spewed at the Irish underclass has been sickening -"knackers" "scum" "skangers" "bums" "breeding like rabbits" etc etc etc.As if they weren,t fellow human beings and citizens but were vermin.
Rightwingers like to bang on and on about personal responsibility as if these people had a great plethora of options open to them.They were born into a part of our society which the vast majority of middle class irish people do not give a **** about..It is the Irish middle class which calls the shots and we have decided to let them rot in inner city hellholes and sprawling sink estates.Every promise that has ever been made to these people has been broken.The smug middle class posters on boards think that they have got to were they are in life because of their "hard work" never acknowledging the headstart that they have had in life and all the unfair advantages that they have accrued over the "skangers"Never conceding that they were lucky and that if fortunes scales had tipped another way then they would be one of the stella drinking proles that they hate so much.

I believe that if you swapped a doctors son with a gangsters son in the baby ward of a hospital the doctors biological son would turn out a gangsters son and vica versa because you are shaped by the choices you are given and personal responsibility in the end will have little to do with it.

Finally if having loads of kids and living off social welfare wasn,t a result of poor education, dysfunctional relationships and severely limited options but instead was some sort of glorious benefits bonanza then how come so many middleclass irish women aren't taking advantage of it but instead are flying over to the UK in such huge numbers to have abortions every year!!!.

I agree that Ireland is divided along class lines, (btw I'm sure the poor of this country will really appreciate you referring to them as the underclass) and I believe everyone should be treated with respect, as long as they have the same respect for others in society. For example I am originally from Limerick City and my house is only 5 minutes walk from Moyross, what many in this country would classify as a sink estate. I know many people from the area and I have found that the vast majority are decent hardworking (if there was work available) people who would go out of their way to help you. I would not classify these people as vermin or knackers but there is a certain element that lives in this area that I would, scumbags, thugs and criminals that would take the eye out of your head as soon as look at you. I have no respect for turds like this because they do not deserve it.

Now I would speculate from your post that you perhaps have taken the other road open to the middle class, the right-on liberal, someone who blames "society" for the failings and the actions of others. In my opinion this is even more insulting to the underprivileged, you seem to tut tut and condescend them by saying "oh it's not your fault you poor dears, you never had chance, it's all someone else's fault".

Now if you have read through this thread and looked at the arguments presented without a typical knee-jerk defend the poor at any cost type response, you would have seen that all the majority of people are suggesting is that people accept personal responsibility for their actions and circumstances. If you are poor or unemployed, which to be honest could happen to anyone of us given the state of the country, you need to accept the fact that you cannot afford children. People (well most people anyway, this is AH after all) are not calling for a wholesale sterilization of the the poor but just that they show a bit of cop on and understand that it's unfair to bring any child into this world if you cannot provide for it yourself. I would suggest that this is showing the poor far more respect as people and acknowledging them as full, valued members of society rather than mollycoddling them as ignorant simpletons who need to be defended in shrill tones of righteous indignation.

scientific1982

People need to start realising that we dont have infinite resources on this planet. The next few decades are going to be dodgy as fook. The herd might need to be thinned.

jonsnow

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

What exactly do you object to, the messenger or the message

I object to both.Both her odious message and the fact that someone from her background sees fit to lecture the poor about what they can and cannot do and to pretend that she was in a comparable situation when she made choices about her families size.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Sure she has had a privileged upbringing, does that diminish the validity of her opinion just because you seem to have a problem with her background. Would you place more weight on her opinion if she had in fact been born on a Liverpudlian sink estate or would you chalk up her views as being ill-informed and a symptom of her poor education.

I,m sure a seven time mother on benefits could shed more light on why she found herself in that situation than the lady of the manor yes.If I want to find out about how to have a jolly hockey sticks time I,ll be sure to ask Mrs Craig.If you want to find out about something you should always ask the experts.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I agree that Ireland is divided along class lines, (btw I'm sure the poor of this country will really appreciate you referring to them as the underclass).

Who,s being all PC now.Their is nothing derogatory in that phrase and its an accepted sociological term.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

and I believe everyone should be treated with respect, as long as .

They are not a single mother on benefits

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

For example I am originally from Limerick City and my house is only 5 minutes walk from Moyross, what many in this country would classify as a sink estate.

So what is this supposed to give you street cred.That you know the lay of the land or something.I lived 5 mins from a similar neighborhood myself for a time and my neighbor was a drug dealer who was executed in broad daylight.But I was still effectively insulated from the world of Irelands underclass and I was still secure in my middle class bubble.I imagine you were too.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I know many people from the area and I have found that the vast majority are decent hardworking (if there was work available) people who would go out of their way to help you. I would not classify these people as vermin or knackers but there is a certain element that lives in this area that I would, scumbags, thugs and criminals that would take the eye out of your head as soon as look at you. I have no respect for turds like this because they do not deserve it.

Well why is it that all of these really serious thugs and scumbags and untermensch all come from the same few postcodes.I,m not saying people don,t have choices.Most people living in ghettos chose not to take part in crime.But for impressionable kids raised in a nihilistic drug soaked dump where they are treated with contempt by wider society the allure of being a big player can be overwhelming.Its still a choice but lets give that kid better choices.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Now I would speculate from your post that you perhaps have taken the other road open to the middle class, the right-on liberal, someone who blames "society" for the failings and the actions of others.

And I would speculate that you,re one of those self-righteous middleclass laissez faire types who believes that theirs no such thing as society.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

In my opinion this is even more insulting to the underprivileged, you seem to tut tut and condescend them by saying "oh it's not your fault you poor dears, you never had chance, it's all someone else's fault".

Well in my opinion I,m sure they,d appreciate my trying to understand that we live in an unfair society where the playing pitch is not level and that I,m going to take that into account more than someone implying that their being at the bottom of the heap is entirely their own fault.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Now if you have read through this thread and looked at the arguments presented without a typical knee-jerk defend the poor at any cost type response, you would have seen that all the majority of people are suggesting is that people accept personal responsibility for their actions and circumstances. If you are poor or unemployed, which to be honest could happen to anyone of us given the state of the country, you need to accept the fact that you cannot afford children. People (well most people anyway, this is AH after all) are not calling for a wholesale sterilization of the the poor but just that they show a bit of cop on and understand that it's unfair to bring any child into this world if you cannot provide for it yourself. I would suggest that this is showing the poor far more respect as people and acknowledging them as full, valued members of society rather than mollycoddling them as ignorant simpletons who need to be defended in shrill tones of righteous indignation.

Yeah except that these people were not personally responsible for being born into the worst neighborhoods in our country with all the attentive ills and problems that go with that.Your shrill hectoring will not change that plain fact.Would it be so terrible to structure our country to be more like the Nordic countries where nearly everyone is a full valued member of society in reality instead of rhetoric.

Right on liberal rant over.Man.

jonsnow

scientific1982 wrote: »

People need to start realising that we dont have infinite resources on this planet. The next few decades are going to be dodgy as fook. The herd might need to be thinned.

People on this thread need to start realising that Ireland is underpopulated and has the highest emigration rate in the EU and needs as many sprogs as it can get

flag123

jonsnow wrote: »

People on this thread need to start realising that Ireland is underpopulated and has the highest emigration rate in the EU and needs as many sprogs as it can get

Sorry but we have enough. Majority of people i know are on the dole and saving up everything they got for a flight out of here.

Why should they have to move when the non-nationals down the road are staying.

Do we want another England....were they now feel threatened by the gang land and crime factors related to the amount of immigrants let in over the years...were people with full decedentcy of the country are now moving to places like Australia were they are less of a threat and just generally less of them?

All i know is i don't.

scientific1982

We already have one of the highest birth rates in Europe actually.

ash23

Define poor?

Is there a cut off point?

Some would say it's when you can't provide for those 2 kids yourself. But provide what? Basics? More than basics?

Others would look at my child and think she was deprived. No foreign holidays, small house, bare essentials, rare days out, no extra curricular activities......
And some kids would think she's living in luxury. Food on the table, a warm, dry house, her own room, toys etc.

So who defines poor. And who defines what is "essential" to a child.


A multi millionaire might think her teen having highlights and manicures and the latest fashions and gadgets is "essential". A poverty stricken person would class essentials as something else entirely.

eimearcmh

Isn't there a baby boom now too?

Greyfox

jonsnow wrote: »

The amount of hatred spewed at the Irish underclass has been sickening -"knackers" "scum" "skangers" "bums" "breeding like rabbits" etc etc etc.As if they weren,t fellow human beings and citizens but were vermin.

Rightwingers like to bang on and on about personal responsibility as if these people had a great plethora of options open to them.They were born into a part of our society which the vast majority of middle class irish people do not give a **** about..

The problem is their is loads of scum and dirty skangers in this country and the hatred aimed towards these people is 100% deserved as these people are ruining the country, they are vermin. The biggest problem with this country is idiots who keep on banging on about how as Johny came from a disadvantaged area and theirfor he has the perfect excuse for living a life of crime and never getting a job. Surely the easiest way to cut down on the amount of disadvantaged kids that are coming into the world is to put something in place that puts parents off having kids they can't afford instead of offering some people a free house if they have kids they can't afford. We all want future children to have oppertunities in life theirfor it makes sence to try to do something to limit the amount of babies that will be born without proper oppertunities

jonsnow wrote: »

People on this thread need to start realising that Ireland is underpopulated and has the highest emigration rate in the EU and needs as many sprogs as it can get

What dreamworld are you living in? we have high emigration because theirs feck all jobs available in this counrty, and it looks like their will be feck all jobs available for the baby boom were currently experiencing as well