Midlands range

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

The DOJ have chosen to use/adapt the Canadian Range Design and Construction Guidelines (PDF 6.28MB), which details all this stuff.

To the best of my knowledge (very much open to correction), that's still what they're working with.

AFAIK, it's been heavily adapted and in fact augmented with some new ideas such as having a combination of danger area and no danger area templates. I know one range that's adopted that template.

There are other ways of avoiding ricochets off the range floor. Lowering the level between the firing point and target line is one that anyone who's been to Stickledown range in Bisley will be familiar with.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Except that a club with an authorisation, by default gives anyone who's a member a licence to use club guns. So a temporary membership would allow anyone use any club firearm without actually having a licence, by just paying a small 'temporary' membership fee.

Well, yes, but; according to 2(4)(d), anyone can use a firearm on an authorised range. Membership and the firearm being a club firearm aren't mentioned in 2(4)(d). So unless it's a specific condition in the authorisation (and granted, it is in many, but not in all), the SI doesn't do what it was intended to do. (and there's the question of what the paying of a range fee does to visitor status, if someone was to look into that can for worms...)

But then, the SI was only ever a first slash at the problem; fine-tuning it can and should happen. It's just a question of manpower and political will.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, yes, but; according to 2(4)(d), anyone can use a firearm on an authorised range. Membership and the firearm being a club firearm aren't mentioned in 2(4)(d). So unless it's a specific condition in the authorisation (and granted, it is in many, but not in all), the SI doesn't do what it was intended to do. (and there's the question of what the paying of a range fee does to visitor status, if someone was to look into that can for worms...)

Easily circumvented by issuing the authorisation under section 4A and thus making it subject to the clubs SI. Payment is a different proposition, but if you take entry fees for a compeition...

pedroeibar1

mrhd wrote: »

Another ill concieved piece of legislation. I can understand DOJ wanting to stop guys without a FAC walking in off the street and renting club rifles etc.

But I for example have a rifle FAC and NARGC insurance, which implies DOJ/GS think I am safe and trustworthy. I would occasionally use a range on a pay as you go basis, if it were allowed, to zero scopes rather than having to find a safe location locally.

That section of the SI would allow for pay-as-you-go for FAC holders using their own rifles, if we lived in a country with logical thinking politico's. And because it is an SI it can as I understand it be amended by the minister without having to go back to the Dail.

I can only hope.

I know times are tough and it is difficult to fork out an entry fee BUT Midland's fees are very reasonable (I’m not a member).
Put them in perspective- golf and yacht/sailing clubs run at minimum €1500 PA with a similar amount as a once-off joining fee. Most of them have a reduced level of fee for Country Members (those living more than 100kms away) but that is about €400 - €600 PA which is about double what Midlands charges for ordinary membership.
Most golf& sailing clubs have haemorrhaged members over the last couple of years and have not increased fees – some of the new golf clubs have dropped entry fees just to survive.
FWIW, I cannot see how Section (4) of SI 308/2009 [A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes.] could prevent the creation of “Country Member” status if a club wanted to do so. The purpose of the legislation would appear to be to prevent casual callers from being instructed in firearms use/training. It could be an earner, country member status @€;120 and allowing 12 visits p.a. could entice those who would not be happy to pay full whack - but club would have to do the sums on existing members dropping in status.
P.

kildare.17hmr

tac foley wrote: »

But it's NOT a long range - it's only 300m it says on the gweth about the range.

1200 yards is a long range. Stickledown Range at bisley is this long, and has no ground baffles.

2500m is a pretty long range. The one I shoot on in the north of England has no ground baffles.

...and 5000-15000m IS a long range. The one I shoot on in the USA is called Idaho and that has no ground baffles either.

Sorry, I KNOW I said I'd shut-up, but it notes above that it is based on regulations governing the construction of ranges in Canada. I shoot in Canada and I've never seen a range like that there.

However, in charity, I've asked a friend of mine in Quebec - a fellow Swiss rifle shooter -who is big on ranges, to offer me a crumb of comfort.

tac
www.swissrifles.com

eh midlands has a 1200 yard range tac
http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

But it's NOT a long range - it's only 300m it says on the gweth about the range.

1200 yards is a long range. Stickledown Range at bisley is this long, and has no ground baffles.

I think you'll find that I mentioned that a couple of posts above your reply. Stickledown has a lowered range floor to prevent ricochets, it also has a danger area of 1.5 miles (I think) beyond the stop butts.

There are many different ways of handling the problem on ranges, ground baffles are just one of them. Different ranges depending on where they are or what calibres are used on them take different approaches. I don't know of any that don't engineer some solution to the problem.

poulo6.5

Rovi wrote: »

They can't, and neither can any other Authorised Club or Range; 'day or temporary membership' is specifically prohibited in legislation:
S.I. No. 308 of 2009

I understand that it is the law and all that but I can not for the life of me understand why.
Can anyone here tell me why it would be illegal for a club to allow new shooters the chance to zero their rifle in a safe environment with people around to help and give pointers and advise.
Or am I just mad for thinking like that.
Maybe there is something I am missing here. But that seems to me to be counter productive.

Think of it this way. A lad has gone out and gotten permission from farmers and walked the land and has done all the the nesseserry things needed to buy a rifle ".22" for instance. Licence is issued and he picks up the rifle and 100 rounds. It could have bin the first time he ever layed a hand on a gun.

Now what do we expect him to do.
First of all asuming it needs a scope tie person has to for a scope
Then load the rifle and shoot something. But what. Hay look there is a stone over there I'll shoot that.
Now where did the bullet go.
Remember this lad never had a gun never heard about zeroing and for all the world the round could have gone anywhere. Anyway you can see where I'm going with this.

Now let's assume that it is allowed (or even a requirement ) to do a day at a range. What do you think is the best option.

shedd7

poulo6.5 wrote: »

I understand that it is the law and all that but I can not for the life of me understand why.
Can anyone here tell me why it would be illegal for a club to allow new shooters the chance to zero their rifle in a safe environment with people around to help and give pointers and advise.
Or am I just mad for thinking like that.
Maybe there is something I am missing here. But that seems to me to be counter productive.

Think of it this way. A lad has gone out and gotten permission from farmers and walked the land and has done all the the nesseserry things needed to buy a rifle ".22" for instance. Licence is issued and he picks up the rifle and 100 rounds. It could have bin the first time he ever layed a hand on a gun.

Now what do we expect him to do.
First of all asuming it needs a scope tie person has to for a scope
Then load the rifle and shoot something. But what. Hay look there is a stone over there I'll shoot that.
Now where did the bullet go.
Remember this lad never had a gun never heard about zeroing and for all the world the round could have gone anywhere. Anyway you can see where I'm going with this.

Now let's assume that it is allowed (or even a requirement ) to do a day at a range. What do you think is the best option.

You have obviously missed a lot of what has happened in the last year. First applicants are required to have successfully completed a firearms safety course, so what you are talking about should not be an issue anymore. Personal experience tells me that your situation as described can and does happen (I was that soldier but in my case it was a tin oil can not a stone and I wasn't even aware of the guy on the other side of the ditch, until I heard some flowery language as the .22 bullets whizzing around made the guy a little nervous):o

kildare.17hmr

the FSC can be done anytime so long as you have it done before applying for the licence, so before you buy or after it does not really matter once you do it

kildare.17hmr

shedd7 wrote: »

You have obviously missed a lot of what has happened in the last year. First applicants are required to have successfully completed a firearms safety course, so what you are talking about should not be an issue anymore. Personal experience tells me that your situation as described can and does happen (I was that soldier but in my case it was a tin oil can not a stone and I wasn't even aware of the guy on the other side of the ditch, until I heard some flowery language as the .22 bullets whizzing around made the guy a little nervous):o

Just because you do the course does not mean you wont need help setting up your rifle fist time, the course covers safe handling and shooting ect, not how to zero a rifle

mrbrianj

I suppose you have to look at the traditional "shooter" in Ireland, there are still only a small number of ranges and Midlands being the only ( I think) real long range club. In the past most guys would have started out hunting with fathers/uncles/older brothers using shotguns and .22 rifles - everything else was heavily restricted. Other countries had wider ranges of guns available and different places to shot them. The Gaurds may not have been too receptive if you were looking of a gun not for hunting.

So I imagine it was assumed that you had a bit if experience, some people would have got a licence without any but usually the informal interview with the Gaurds to make them happy you werent an eejit was enough

Times have changed and it seems you can shot whatever you want with reasonable cause and I suspose thats why we are running in the new licence system- its a bit of a mess but should sort itself out over time

Mr.Flibble

tac foley wrote: »

Certainly, having just received a response from my RCO pal in Canada, there are no ranges THERE that bear the slightest resemblance to that one at Tullaghmore.

Why am I so unsurprised to read that.

I don't believe for a second Stickledown was designed to prevent ricochets in the way RRPC infers. I'm sure it's just an accident of the topography, the desire for level firing points on sloping ground, drainage and the need for each firing point to be able to see over all those in front of it. There are no such elevated firing points on Century.

The irony is that, if I understand it correctly, the old practice of firing "blow-off" shots in Match Rifle shooting was guaranteed to put a lot of shots into this "ricochet-danger" area. But Stickledown has been in use for about 120 years and not that many people have been killed by ricochets. Maybe once our country has been in existence that long the PTB will have gained sufficient maturity to allow more common sense in range and firearms regulation.

Sadly I don't expect to survive long enough to see it.

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Why am I so unsurprised to read that.

I don't believe for a second Stickledown was designed to prevent ricochets in the way RRPC infers. I'm sure it's just an accident of the topography, the desire for level firing points on sloping ground, drainage and the need for each firing point to be able to see over all those in front of it. There are no such elevated firing points on Century.

The 300m and 600m firing points on Century range are elevated above the flat plane of the range. The ranges in Bisley are designed according to the MOD range design criteria JSP403 which does in fact specify raised firing positions. Again, this is somewhat irrelevant given the very extensive danger area behind the stop butts on both ranges.

Midlands ranges are deigned primarily as 'limited danger area' ranges. The main criterion for these types of ranges is that no shot can escape the boundary of the range or the limited danger area specified.

The difficulty with designing full danger area ranges (like Stickledown) is that you have to have control of a significant portion of land beyond the stop butts and radiating out in a cone from the firing points. It's a very expensive proposition which is usually cheaper and simpler to achieve using an engineered solution like ground and overhead baffles.

Edit: Just looking at the safety templates in the original Canadian specs and it specifies a 2.8Km safety distance for the .308 Winchester, 4.2Km for .338 Lapua Magnum and a whopping 6.6Km for the Browning .50 :eek:

That's a lot of land even if your max calibre is .308 Win.

Mr.Flibble

rrpc wrote: »

The 300m and 600m firing points on Century range are elevated above the flat plane of the range. The ranges in Bisley are designed according to the MOD range design criteria JSP403 which does in fact specify raised firing positions. Again, this is somewhat irrelevant given the very extensive danger area behind the stop butts on both ranges.

The 300m firing point is elevated to get it closer to the level of the targets, to conform with ISSF rules. There is no 600m firing point. The 600yds one is raised a few inches to provide a better surface to shoot off.

You brought up Bisley; now you say it's irrelevant. You need to make up your mind.

Mr.Flibble

rrpc wrote: »

That's a lot of land even if your max calibre is .308 Win.

Canada's a big country.

Sparks

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Canada's a big country.

And here's not; so standards in one place get adapted for the other. Which is one reason why we have things like ground baffles.

tac foley wrote: »

if your Midlands range has a clientele who habitually hit the ground whilst shooting at 300m, who am I to point out that they would appear to be unique in the shooting world?

They are very unique in the shooting world in that they have to deal with the DoJ; and if the price for a 1200yd range is a few ugly-looking and functionally superflous boards on the range, well, small price.

tac foley

I have been PM'd by a member of this board and asked to remove certain words from one of my posts in this thread which are seen, by him, as insulting and demeaning.

Not wishing to embarrass, offend, insult or imply anything else other than respect for anybody here by further postings on this subject, I have deleted all my posts prior to this one.

You will all appreciate that I can do nothing about those posts that have quoted my words.

Thank you.

tac

Mr.Flibble

Sparks wrote: »

They are very unique in the shooting world in that they have to deal with the DoJ; and if the price for a 1200yd range is a few ugly-looking and functionally superflous boards on the range, well, small price.

Did they have to put them on the 1200yd (& presumably 600yd) range(s) as well? It won't have been that small a price

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

The 300m firing point is elevated to get it closer to the level of the targets, to conform with ISSF rules. There is no 600m firing point. The 600yds one is raised a few inches to provide a better surface to shoot off.

You brought up Bisley; now you say it's irrelevant. You need to make up your mind.

I didn't say Bisley is irrelevant. I pointed out that different ranges use different templates to maintain safety, Bisley was an example of a danger area range and Stickledown was an example of a depressed range floor that wouldn't present the same ricochet hazard as Tullamore as well as having a substantial danger area. You then brought up Century range as if it was in some way the same as Tullamore and I've pointed to the fact that it also has a large danger area. What's irrelevant is the height of the firing point on a danger area range because the ricochet hazard is already engineered out.

You can pick any range you like and you'll find that it has used whatever is the most cost effective solution. In Canada it might be that land is cheaper, so a danger area template is probably the best alternative. In Ireland, land is expensive or just impossible to acquire so other solutions have to be found.

There's no right or wrong way, just the optimum way for the circumstances. They could have raised the firing points in Midlands, but that would have also meant raising the stop butts. Alternatively they could have dug out the range floor but that would have affected drainage and have been a massive undertaking over such a large area. Creating a danger area would have been prohibitively expensive in land costs.

Kryten

tac foley wrote: »

I have been PM'd by a member of this board and asked to remove certain words from one of my posts in this thread which are seen, by him, as insulting and demeaning.

Not wishing to embarrass, offend, insult or imply anything else other than respect for anybody here by further postings on this subject, I have deleted all my posts prior to this one.

You will all appreciate that I can do nothing about those posts that have quoted my words.

Thank you.

tac

Seen your quotes in other peoples posts and wondered have you been moderated out of the scene

You have a unique perspective as a well travelled and internationally experienced shooter and if I may say, you speak a lot of sense. My late father would have liked you

Mr.Flibble

rrpc wrote: »

I didn't say Bisley is irrelevant. .....

Well, you said it was "somewhat irrelevant"

I agree Bisley is a danger area range.

I strongly believe you are wrong if you think the topography of Stickledown is designed to prevent ricochets, a) because of Match Rifle practices in the past and b) because Century, which I presume is designed and run to the same regs, is very substantially without raised firing points. (That's the only reason I mentioned Century; I didn't say it was the same as Tullamore.)

Whether Bisley is relevant or not depends on whether Tullamore is a danger area range or not. I don't know - maybe you do. I'd imagined with a big area of uninhabited bog beyond it that it might be, but the imposition of baffles would seem to imply otherwise. You've been there recently; have they really been made to put ground baffles on the 1200 & 600yd ranges? I agree with Sparks that they're ugly. I doubt they're cheap. Functionally superflous (sic)? - what do you say?

Didn't I hear the ISSF has taken over Summer Biathlon? Maybe we can have a special Irish variation - hurdles & shooting. Or should that be jumping through hoops and shooting?

It wasn't me!

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Didn't I hear the ISSF has taken over Summer Biathlon? Maybe we can have a special Irish variation - hurdles & shooting. Or should that be jumping through hoops and shooting?

"Bending over backwards and shooting" would be my own suggestion.

tac foley

Kryten wrote: »

My late father would have liked you

That's prolly because we are about the same age. ;=)

tac

rrpc

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Well, you said it was "somewhat irrelevant"

I agree Bisley is a danger area range.

I strongly believe you are wrong if you think the topography of Stickledown is designed to prevent ricochets, a) because of Match Rifle practices in the past and b) because Century, which I presume is designed and run to the same regs, is very substantially without raised firing points. (That's the only reason I mentioned Century; I didn't say it was the same as Tullamore.)

I have some old photos of Stickledown somewhere and it seemed to be a flat range from them, which is why I suspected it had been engineered to the format it now is. But it could just as well not have been. I just used it as an example of how you could have a ricochet pit on a range. Century is a different case obviously.

Whether Bisley is relevant or not depends on whether Tullamore is a danger area range or not. I don't know - maybe you do. I'd imagined with a big area of uninhabited bog beyond it that it might be, but the imposition of baffles would seem to imply otherwise. You've been there recently; have they really been made to put ground baffles on the 1200 & 600yd ranges? I agree with Sparks that they're ugly. I doubt they're cheap. Functionally superflous (sic)? - what do you say?

I asked the question a couple of years ago and was told it would be too expensive to buy out the land beyond the stop butts, You can infer if it is a danger area or not from its construction; the ground baffles would be unnecessary if it were. I was also told that there were 3500 planks used at €3 a pop. I didn't get to see the 1200 yard range, I just didn't get time, and from where I was it was impossible to see.

bullets

Love midlands, Would love to see the website updated on an ongoing basis though and maybe even a forum on the website where people can ask questions or chat etc.

The baffles dont bother me in the slightest, as long as
I can shoot I am happy. Better chairs would be great though, Its the one thing I find awquard when going there,
I feel the seats are too low, and the tables are too high for
me as a shorter person.

I'm lucky to get up there a few times a year though nowadays. Since I dont drive I relied on travelling with a m8 who decided it was cheaper for him to Pay Range fees than pay a years membership for the amount of times we travelled per year, then he was told he could only come 3 times as my guest when he did not renew his membership.
(even though there is nothing about such restrictions in the club rulebook that I can recall). Same lad lost interst in the Rifle now so does not travel.

It really really pisses me off that I can bring a bunch of my friends Clay pigeon shooting when they dont have licences for firearms and its accepted and advertised by places around the country
and advertised for tourists even! and I cant do the same thing for friends that have never fired a rifle and would love to try it!

My Girlfriend wanted to Try shoot the rifle to see if she liked it. To do so legally (Before she knows if she would even like it or not) She would have to go on one of these new proficiency courses, then pay 580 Euros to join a club, then have to pay 80 Euros to get her a licence to use my
rifle (and probably have more house inspections from the gardai since she would be applying for a licence)
It makes no logical sense. As thats a lot of cash to blow if she decides she does not like it after a few shots either that or she gets to sit beside me bored to tears watching me shoot.

~B

tac foley

bullets wrote: »

Love midlands, Would love to see the website updated on an ongoing basis though and maybe even a forum on the website where people can ask questions or chat etc.

The baffles dont bother me in the slightest, as long as
I can shoot I am happy. Better chairs would be great though, Its the one thing I find awquard when going there,
I feel the seats are too low, and the tables are too high for
me as a shorter person.

I'm lucky to get up there a few times a year though nowadays. Since I dont drive I relied on travelling with a m8 who decided it was cheaper for him to Pay Range fees than pay a years membership for the amount of times we travelled per year, then he was told he could only come 3 times as my guest when he did not renew his membership.
(even though there is nothing about such restrictions in the club rulebook that I can recall). Same lad lost interst in the Rifle now so does not travel.

It really really pisses me off that I can bring a bunch of my friends Clay pigeon shooting when they dont have licences for firearms and its accepted and advertised by places around the country
and advertised for tourists even! and I cant do the same thing for friends that have never fired a rifle and would love to try it!

My Girlfriend wanted to Try shoot the rifle to see if she liked it. To do so legally (Before she knows if she would even like it or not) She would have to go on one of these new proficiency courses, then pay 580 Euros to join a club, then have to pay 80 Euros to get her a licence to use my
rifle (and probably have more house inspections from the gardai since she would be applying for a licence)
It makes no logical sense. As thats a lot of cash to blow if she decides she does not like it after a few shots either that or she gets to sit beside me bored to tears watching me shoot.

~B

That's a great pity that your GF is missing out, big time.

Over here in UK ALL clubs are permitted by the Home Office to hold at least twelve 'guest days' every calendar year.

Basically, full members of the club [not probies] can invite up to two guests - friends, relatives, whatever - to come along and spend the day shooting under the special provisions of a day membership, including insurance by the club. The club member is responsible for them while they are on the club premises, but of course, they are taken under the wing of any other member as well, especially while they are shooting that member's firearm - whatever it might be. The sole exception is that the guest cannot shoot any long-barrelled revolver, although they CAN shoot any BP handgun and long arm - might even get the chance to learn how to load it as well.

This costs the guest absolutely nothing.

Zero.

The club member provides the ammunition for whatever gun he is letting the guest shoot - that is part of passing on the fun, after all. I usually take between six to eight different guns along, and so do others - so the guest might end up having shot twenty or thirty different firearms in the course of the day - maybe more.

Whatever else happens, they will have had a chance to do legally what is prohibited at any other time, under close and expert supervision, and at no cost to themselves.

The very same would apply to any of you who came over here to visit my club as my guest, on a suitable day, of course.

Who's going to be first?

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

That's a great pity that your GF is missing out, big time.

Over here in UK ALL clubs are permitted by the Home Office to hold at least twelve 'guest days' every calendar year.

Basically, full members of the club [not probies] can invite up to two guests - friends, relatives, whatever - to come along and spend the day shooting under the special provisions of a day membership, including insurance by the club. The club member is responsible for them while they are on the club premises, but of course, they are taken under the wing of any other member as well, especially while they are shooting that member's firearm - whatever it might be. The sole exception is that the guest cannot shoot any long-barrelled revolver, although they CAN shoot any BP handgun and long arm - might even get the chance to learn how to load it as well.

This costs the guest absolutely nothing.

Zero.

The club member provides the ammunition for whatever gun he is letting the guest shoot - that is part of passing on the fun, after all. I usually take between six to eight different guns along, and so do others - so the guest might end up having shot twenty or thirty different firearms in the course of the day - maybe more.

Whatever else happens, they will have had a chance to do legally what is prohibited at any other time, under close and expert supervision, and at no cost to themselves.

The very same would apply to any of you who came over here to visit my club as my guest, on a suitable day, of course.

Who's going to be first?

tac

I've no holidays left before Christmas Tac or I might take you up on that offer!
Regards
Tackleberrywho

P.S
Anyone know is it possible to change your name without getting a nre account?
I'd like to change my login to Remington
as there are currently 3 derrivitives of Tac : = )
Tackleberry.
Tackleberrywho
Tac Foley

Sparks

According the PTB, visitors are fine on Irish ranges. And if your authorisation will permit it, the visitor can "try before they buy", so to speak.

rrpc

bullets wrote: »

My Girlfriend wanted to Try shoot the rifle to see if she liked it. To do so legally (Before she knows if she would even like it or not) She would have to go on one of these new proficiency courses, then pay 580 Euros to join a club, then have to pay 80 Euros to get her a licence to use my
rifle (and probably have more house inspections from the gardai since she would be applying for a licence)
It makes no logical sense. As thats a lot of cash to blow if she decides she does not like it after a few shots either that or she gets to sit beside me bored to tears watching me shoot.
~B

It's not quite like that bullets. You're describing two different things. On the one hand, you can't have someone paying 'green fees' all the time without joining a club, but a club member can bring a visitor to most ranges (ones that have authorisations) and they can use club firearms under supervision.

In Rathdrum we limit it to airguns or .22 rifles (which is really all we've got as club firearms anyway) and it's usually enough for somenone to decide if they really want to join or not. I just had two lads in on Saturday night to try it out and we may get one junior member out of the exercise at least. But if not, maybe they'll tell some of their mates and we might get someone to take up the sport in the long run.

So take this as an invitation for your GF to come to Rathdrum. You can feck off though

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

According the PTB, visitors are fine on Irish ranges. And if your authorisation will permit it, the visitor can "try before they buy", so to speak.

Ah.

Here no authorisation is necessary - the Minister for Home affairs has granted it as a blanket permission by allowing the guest day to take place.

Six saturdays and six sundays - the next one here in my club is September 5th.

I'll be in Wales, playing trains.

tac