Islam and the extremism?

caseyann

I dont want this to be heated or argumentative thread,just curious on what your take is on this.
I was watching a program about god last night.An atheist going around the world and asking questions to people in each religion.
He confronted a few Muslims.Asking them would they like to see the world taken over by Islam.The responses i heard were mind boggling.
One of which is control your women.And you let them dress like whores,and yes we want to take over the world and it will.Now to my knowledge these people who he interviewed are normal everyday people.
One of which was raised a Jew in new york.Now a Muslim living in Palestine.
Do you want Everyone to change to Islam and cover your women up from neck to toe and be in charge?
They want all westerners and non Muslims out of there.
Personally i would like to see that and leave those countries to their own.
Would you rather live in a all Muslim country.
Because Islam is never going to take over the world.
How do you feel about those people and their extremist views and threats? who appear to be normal every day people without extremist relations.

I was amazed by what i heard and quite shocked.

Tom Dunne

caseyann wrote: »

I was amazed by what i heard and quite shocked.

And that is exactly what the producers of the program want.

Boring TV doesn't get ratings. I remember a while back Sky News were interviewing somebody in the West of Ireland about a breaking story. Did they pick the average Joe/Joesephine on the street? No, they appear to have gone out of their way to pick the biggest pair of stereotypical gob****es in the West of Ireland.

Do you think a Muslim living in Palestine would in any way be, I dunno, angry? Do you think he/she would have any issues with the geopolitical situation in his part of the world? Of course he would. And of course his situation would reflect his views, that is quite understandable.

Did you see the Channel 4 program about radical redneck Christians in the Deep South in the US? You will see equally abhorrent comments from those "good Christian folk".

If I have learned one thing from living in the Middle East it is that we in the West get a very, very narrow viewpoint from the likes of the Sun, The Irish Independent and Sky News.

Don't take everything you watch on TV as representative of a particular viewpoint. Especially in this era of "shock and awe".

caseyann

Its not about what i think.I asked a question.
But what i think seen as you asked is.With them kind of views it will make western people who are of different faiths more against Muslim religion and the Arab society.
The ex Jew was raised in New York.
Now can you answer me thanks,what you think of the irrational extremist hatred view.
Imagine if we took that same ideology about Muslims.
And want to over run their country with Christianity.
And if i wanted to debate about what Christians think i would and will take it there eventually.
While i may not agree with certain aspects of majority Islamic countries and the Arab culture.I do not barr stoning women and alot of views agree with.I however hold criticism and Arab bashing off.As i dont view they should change to my religion and my clothes.But they seem to think they are right and only law.And have the audacity to say we should change to their ways.

I do not take things literally on tv.And i asked a question.But i dont see you saying you dont agree with them or what you would wish about Islam.Or whether you would like it to over run the world as only religion?

Tom Dunne

caseyann wrote: »

Its not about what i think.I asked a question.
But what i think seen as you asked is.With them kind of views it will make western people who are of different faiths more against Muslim religion and the Arab society.

For the record, I am not Muslim, so no, I do not wish to Islam to "over run the world as the only religion".

I notice that you refer to Arabs. You do know that there are over 1 Billion Muslims in the world and not all of them are in the Middle East? Therefore, could you say that the viewpoint of Muslim in Palestine is representative of a Muslim in, say, Malaysia?

caseyann wrote: »

Imagine if we took that same ideology about Muslims.

Take a trip over the After Hours forum. Do a search for Islam, or Mohammed. Then tell me there are no people in Ireland with some blissfully ignorant contempt for Islam.

caseyann wrote: »

.But they seem to think they are right and only law.And have the audacity to say we should change to their ways.

Again, see above. Can you honestly say these views are representative of all Muslims? Or are they handpicked to give TV shows an air of controversy?

I work with Muslims every day and I can tell you the vast majority of them would be embarrassed by views such as that.

caseyann wrote: »

I do not take things literally on tv.And i asked a question.But i dont see you saying you dont agree with them or what you would wish about Islam.Or whether you would like it to over run the world as only religion?

Of course I disagree with them. But you are only seeing it from one side. Google Rush Limbaugh for a few choice quotes on Islam and Muslims.

There are extremists on both sides, a point which a lot of people in the West badly need to accept.

caseyann

Tom Dunne wrote: »

For the record, I am not Muslim, so no, I do not wish to Islam to "over run the world as the only religion".

I notice that you refer to Arabs. You do know that there are over 1 Billion Muslims in the world and not all of them are in the Middle East? Therefore, could you say that the viewpoint of Muslim in Palestine is representative of a Muslim in, say, Malaysia?

Ok i thought you were sorry.
I refer to Arab as an example only.
I am married to a muslim so i am well aware of differences in muslim via home land culture.



Take a trip over the After Hours forum. Do a search for Islam, or Mohammed. Then tell me there are no people in Ireland with some blissfully ignorant contempt for Islam.

I am well aware of how they are in AH.I take what they say there with a grain of salt.



Again, see above. Can you honestly say these views are representative of all Muslims? Or are they handpicked to give TV shows an air of controversy?

I work with Muslims every day and I can tell you the vast majority of them would be embarrassed by views such as that.



Of course I disagree with them. But you are only seeing it from one side. Google Rush Limbaugh for a few choice quotes on Islam and Muslims.

There are extremists on both sides, a point which a lot of people in the West badly need to accept.

I am not seeing it one side.Show me when religious leaders of a country call on catholics etc.. to take over the world with their religion.That is from dark ages.

I am well aware alot of people in other religions have a problem with Muslims,But i dont see them wanting to over run Muslim run countries and change them.I do see them wanting them out of western countries.While that is wrong its not the same.
They dont go there.

Tom Dunne

caseyann wrote: »

I am not seeing it one side.Show me when religious leaders of a country call on catholics etc.. to take over the world with their religion.That is from dark ages.

I am well aware alot of people in other religions have a problem with Muslims,But i dont see them wanting to over run Muslim run countries and change them.I do see them wanting them out of western countries.While that is wrong its not the same.
They dont go there.

Here's a classic quote from George Bush:

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq

The difference being, George Bush actually had the means and will to spread democracy and went ahead and did it.
And he would have invaded Iran, no doubt, if he was still in power.

So, who is more dangerous? Some religious nutjobs who have delusions of Islam all over the world?

Or some religious nutjob who has his finger on the button of nuclear weapons, has the worlds best-equipped army and invades countries under the most flimsy of evidence?

caseyann

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Here's a classic quote from George Bush:



The difference being, George Bush actually had the means and will to spread democracy and went ahead and did it.
And he would have invaded Iran, no doubt, if he was still in power.

So, who is more dangerous? Some religious nutjobs who have delusions of Islam all over the world?

Or some religious nutjob who has his finger on the button of nuclear weapons, has the worlds best-equipped army and invades countries under the most flimsy of evidence?

Again not what the thread is about.
Tom with respect if you have issues with that could you not ask in Christian threads about those comments.:)
I asked how Muslims feel about those people.And how they feel about the comments of westerners allow their women dress like whores,and Islam will take over the world.
And if they dont like our ways of living and dressing would it not be best to live away from it and not interact with it.

caseyann

Fast forward if you dont want to see it all,to 37:00 mins.This the the video i am talking about.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4321574955310561251#

af_thefragile

Let me first start by giving an overall background of the muslim world today.
There is a critical lack of education and knowledge of Islam among most muslims lately. And the large number of Islamic sects that have risen up lately hasn't been helping either. This had led to a lot of confusion among mostly young muslims who don't really know which direction to take to follow the Islamic way. Proper traditional Islamic scholars are few are far between. In the east most of them are repressed by the ruling governments of the states as these scholars usually speak against the actions of the government. In the west most of them are hard to be herd by the mainstream public due to the lack of airtime they're given by the media (they're too boring and uninteresting to make any news).

After the fall of the Ottoman caliphate due to the breakdown of the Islamic empires and with the coming of the age of enlightenment a lot of muslims started to take up new philosophies which were emerging among that time such as communism and socialism mainly to rebel against the new states that had formed after the fall of the Ottoman empire. They were mostly just communists and socialists rebelling against the governments of their states. Now after the fall of communism after Al-Qaeda was sent to Afghanistan under the backing of USA to fight off the Soviets, most of those communists and socialists became Islamists. They reformulated their ideologies to fit under a more Islamic label and so was the birth of Islamic extremism.

Now most of these "Islamists" who have no formal education in Islamic teachings started to take advantage of the prevalent confusion and ignorance among the muslim youth and have come forward as "scholars of Islam" who are only just propagating their own agenda. They dream of creating an utopic Islamic state which aims to bring back the formal glory from the hay day of the Islamic empire which is only wishful thinking. They're no different from Adolf Hitler with his dreams of the Third Reich.

Then 9/11 happens, there's Afghanistan and Iraq and this only makes matters worse. Suddenly there's this whole notion of the "West" (which is driven by America, Israel and to some extent UK) has attacked "Islamic lands" and there is the whole feeling of "lets fight these invaders for our lands and religion". This has only polarized the muslim communities and it has ended up in a whole "us vs. them" battle.

There are many elements on both sides of the spectrum which have resulted in this polarity of the communities. The most major element contributing to this in my opinion is the media which is on a constant search for the next hot and sensational story on "Islamic Extremists" and "how they're closer to our homes than we ever thought of". While giving zero airtime to the proper Islamic scholars who keep fighting this battle to try and get things straight about what Islam says and what muslims are meant to do.

The next major element is the rise of this extreme right factions in the west. It could be a result in itself of a reaction to the Islamic extremism and the media's portrayal of it and the polarity that it has created in the society. These factions are rapidly growing as well (if you notice how BNP has grown in popularity recently) and as a consequence there is a lot of violence, abuse and mistreatment towards muslims in the west. Like those articles posted about women who wear the niqab receiving constant abuse from people.

And it is this rise of extremism on both sides of the spectrum which is only complementing to the growing tensions between the two communities. On one side there are these fake "mullas" (scholars) who tell muslims to distrust, distant, be apathetic and even violent towards the non-muslims and say all problems would be solved if the non-muslims were removed from the Islamic lands and then they could enjoy once again the glory days of Islamic utopia. While on the other side you've got these BNPesque extreme right factions which driven by their racial and xenophobic intentions says all problems of the west would be solved if they have all muslims packed up and shipped out to somewhere away from the western world and then they could enjoy their victorian utopia.


This is fundamentally the problem we're facing today. Each factions believes their problems will be solved by simply eliminating or distancing themselves from the other faction and this couldn't be further from reality. Things are never as black and white.
The only way peace can be bought is not by burning bridges but by reaching out and trying to understand the other group and this is what we have fundamentally failed to do.

The muslims have failed to understand how hard the west has fought to gain its rights and freedom and how important it is to them, to their way of life. They cannot paint over the western world their colour of Islam and think it'll feature in the complex contours of the western society.

And the west on the other hand has failed to understand the deep innate unity among the muslim world as the west might see all these conflicts of Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kashmir as isolated individual events while the muslims view these as an attack on the themselves and they greatly feel for the pain and suffering of the people caught in these conflicts.
The west has failed to understand the deep respect and devotion muslims have towards their religion and the lost, disturbed and enraged state they have fallen into.

So can extremism go away?
I don't think so. There have always been people in this world who are just violent and bought up with extreme views. It doesn't take many matches to light a fire. Extreme groups and factions have always existed throughout history and will continue to exist till the end of time. Its just a nature of this world!

So what can we do about this?
We can try to seek the truth. Try to understand each other and try to promote the knowledge of the truth so that there are less ignorant people around who can fall prey to the evil and ungodly agendas of these violent people.

Trying to erase the differences between us will only lead to violence.
Peace can only be achieved by recognising the differences between us and respecting them.
Like the Quranic verse goes "we(God) have created you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another (not that your may despise each other)".

Just my 2c...

Fuhrer

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Or some religious nutjob who has his finger on the button of nuclear weapons, has the worlds best-equipped army and invades countries under the most flimsy of evidence?

You're absolutely right, those countries would have been so much better under a insane, tyrannical dictator and the completely insane Taliban.

Also, way to dodge the question. Did he invade those countries to spread Christianity?

wes

Fuhrer wrote: »

You're absolutely right, those countries would have been so much better under a insane, tyrannical dictator and the completely insane Taliban.

In the case of Iraq Women rights have actually gotten worse, and more people have died than Saddam killed since the war.

In the case of Afghanistan, the only difference between the war lords and the Taliban is that the war lords are willing to work with the West. With some exceptions, the rest of the country remains much the same.

So overall 2 war that didn't achieve a whole lot. One of them was most certainly a war of aggression.

Fuhrer wrote: »

Also, way to dodge the question. Did he invade those countries to spread Christianity?

Well, Bush did invoke God, as for reason, in the case of Afghanistan, it was 9/11, but in the case of Iraq, they changed there reason every few months.

demonspawn

I saw the documentary in question. The host was very hostile to all religion, this was quite evident throughout the film. He was basically a dumbed-down Christopher Hitchens with a massive chip on his shoulder. It was his aim to make Islam look like a refuge for lunatics and extremists, and he obviously succeeded.

I have never met an extremist Muslim, though I have met quite a few Muslims. I worked at a petrol station in the U.S. for two years. It was located between a predominantly black neighborhood and a predominantly Muslim/Asian neighborhood. I had many conversations with Muslim residents and every single one of them showed absolute abhorrence towards those that murdered in the name of Islam. They were adamant that it was not the will of Allah to kill in his name.

Edit: I'm agnostic by the way, just in case that came into question.

demonspawn

Fuhrer wrote: »

You're absolutely right, those countries would have been so much better under a insane, tyrannical dictator and the completely insane Taliban.

Also, way to dodge the question. Did he invade those countries to spread Christianity?

Ah yes, the "insane" Taliban. Did you know that in 2000, the leader of the Taliban Mullah Mohammed Omar, in cooperation with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, banned the cultivation of poppies and the production of opium and heroin? He said it was un-Islamic! What a nutter!! In 2001, no cultivation of poppies was recorded in Helmand province. It was the single most successful campaign in the "war on drugs" ever.

After the invasion of 2001, the U.S. were so grateful to Mullah Omar for his work that they bombed his house in Kandahar, killing his ten year-old son and his step-father.

Go U.S.A.!!!

Fuhrer

demonspawn wrote: »

Ah yes, the "insane" Taliban. Did you know that in 2000, the leader of the Taliban Mullah Mohammed Omar, in cooperation with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, banned the cultivation of poppies and the production of opium and heroin? He said it was un-Islamic! What a nutter!! In 2001, no cultivation of poppies was recorded in Helmand province. It was the single most successful campaign in the "war on drugs" ever.

After the invasion of 2001, the U.S. were so grateful to Mullah Omar for his work that they bombed his house in Kandahar, killing his ten year-old son and his step-father.

Go U.S.A.!!!

You're right, utterly collapsing the economy in Helmand Provence forcing everyone into either utter poverty or crime was such a great and humane act!

He wasn't so quick to ban the torture, murder and execution of innocent women.


But hey, what a guy!

demonspawn

Fuhrer wrote: »

You're right, utterly collapsing the economy in Helmand Provence forcing everyone into either utter poverty or crime was such a great and humane act!

He wasn't so quick to ban the torture, murder and execution of innocent women.


But hey, what a guy!

And I'm sure you have evidence of this? Surely it's not just pure speculation based on what you've seen on Fox News or some other highly reputable and unbiased news agency?

You seem to have difficulty distinguishing between ancient Afghani tribal customs and practices of the followers of Islam. You see, Muslims in Afghanistan are having a heck of a time trying to convince Afghanis that their thousands year-old tribal customs are just not compatible with Islam.

Perhaps you should try educating yourself on the subject a bit further before joining a discussion such as this.