Brakeless riding

Chips Lovell

I see The Guardian has a piece on the growing phenomenon of brakeless muppetry. Interesting point at the end:

The real problem for brakeless riders in the UK could come after an accident. If your bike is not legally roadworthy then any insurance you have could be invalidated, and you could possibly be left open to legal action by any injured parties.

DirkVoodoo

Never understood it, I wonder do fighter pilots opt not to have an ejection seat so they can have a greater affinity with the enemy MIGs and a heightened sense of awareness?

I don't think I have ever had to use my brake in a genuine emergency situation, as in a full on squeeze of the lever that saved my bacon, but it's nice to know it's there if it ever pops up.

niceonetom

The legal issue is one that I've raised before in the face of overweening self-confidence. Even if you are the most adept and skilled brakeless rider in the world and you've been bombing the streets since back in the day etc. you are a moron to admit culpability for every and all traffic incidents you might get into advance- which is exactly what you're doing if you ride with no brakes. Every other fact of the incident will be totally irrleevant if the other party can point at your bike and shout "but he's got no brakes, m'lud."

Caroline_ie

:pac: 'Wreckless riding'

Gophur

Reckless riding!

Wreck-full riding!

irishmotorist

Being legally roadworthy is an interesting point. Could not having a front and rear reflector give the same cause of concern? It could have nothing to do with an incident, but could be a loophole used to prosecute.

It reminds me of hearing of people getting off speeding offences because of loopholes with things problems with the road - e.g. the street lights are too far apart or some such nonsense. It's nothing to do with them breaking the speed limit, but is an argument that can be used to suit a position.

seamus

irishmotorist wrote: »

Being legally roadworthy is an interesting point. Could not having a front and rear reflector give the same cause of concern? It could have nothing to do with an incident, but could be a loophole used to prosecute.

Smaller things like that may depend on the circumstances. If the accident occured at night, then the lack of reflectors (even if you have lights) could certainly be cited as partial fault on the rider's part. During daylight hours reflectors are immaterial, so couldn't be considered. Brakes are material no matter when the crash occured.

It's always best to bring it back to a comparison with a car. If a car was in a crash, where it had no brakes, who's at fault? The car with no brakes. But what if its lights weren't working? Well that depends on whether or not it was dark.

Bikes "adapted or constructed for racing" are exempt from most inconsequential roadworthiness requirements of bikes - including bells and reflectors - so for anyone riding a road bike or MTB worth over €500, a reflector's not really a concern.

Jawgap

This is bringing back nice memories:-

"There are BMXs, often fitted with a freewheel and stopped with a trainer to the tyre....."

I think my brakeless riding days were terminated when I shredded one pair of school shoes too many stopping on my old Raleigh........

tomasrojo

irishmotorist wrote: »

Being legally roadworthy is an interesting point. Could not having a front and rear reflector give the same cause of concern? It could have nothing to do with an incident, but could be a loophole used to prosecute.

It reminds me of hearing of people getting off speeding offences because of loopholes with things problems with the road - e.g. the street lights are too far apart or some such nonsense. It's nothing to do with them breaking the speed limit, but is an argument that can be used to suit a position.

Well, there's no requirement for a front reflector, but I suppose lack of a rear reflector could be adduced against you, but probably only in nthe event of a collision at night.

A few years back, the press in the UK did keep bringing up that a very expensive bike involved in a fatal collision with a pedestrian was not legally fit to be used on the streets, because it did not have pedal reflectors. It was a very dear road bike and, of course, had clipless pedals.

cdaly_

Jawgap wrote: »

This is bringing back nice memories:-

"There are BMXs, often fitted with a freewheel and stopped with a trainer to the tyre....."

I think my brakeless riding days were terminated when I shredded one pair of school shoes too many stopping on my old Raleigh........

ISTR that the preferred method in my schooldays was to drag the tops of both shoes on the road.

Adjusting / replacing brake shoes was always optional...

Rob A. Bank

“… riding brakeless provides a heightened sense of awareness and demands a great deal of foresight and affinity with traffic.“

LOL.. and probably affinity with a tombstone too !!!

happytramp

Just curious, since I don't know any brakeless riders but see many of them around. Is there any (even remote) advantage to riding a fixed gear bike with no brake? I can't imagine there is but I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind it.

Chips Lovell

happytramp wrote: »

Just curious, since I don't know any brakeless riders but see many of them around. Is there any (even remote) advantage to riding a fixed gear bike with no brake? I can't imagine there is but I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind it.

Other than fashion, no.

petethedrummer

what if you're going to a track race by bike?

kumate_champ07

petethedrummer wrote: »

what if you're going to a track race by bike?

why would you risk a puncture? I would imagine race tyres wouldnt have much puncture protection

kumate_champ07

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

“… riding brakeless provides a heightened sense of awareness and demands a great deal of foresight and affinity with traffic.“

LOL.. and probably affinity with a tombstone too !!!

makes me laugh too, that should be the case with multi gear and dual brake cycling! anyone who is dozy on the road is gonna run into trouble.

without brakes you cant really pick up too much speed in the city, I see people just break the rules of the road because they cant stop in time, maybe it gives them a thrill but its dangerous for other road users

billy.fish

petethedrummer wrote: »

what if you're going to a track race by bike?

You take it off when you get there or run a Kierin brake if you have non drilled forks

Well thats what i do anyway

Chips Lovell

petethedrummer wrote: »

what if you're going to a track race by bike?

Just take the brake off when you get there. That's what I do and a good few people I know who ride to the track.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

why would you risk a puncture? I would imagine race tyres wouldnt have much puncture protection

On an outdoor track, everybody uses road tyres. It's not an issue.

petethedrummer

Sound, i was only stirring. I'm braked up to the gills.

abcdggs

happytramp wrote: »

Just curious, since I don't know any brakeless riders but see many of them around. Is there any (even remote) advantage to riding a fixed gear bike with no brake? I can't imagine there is but I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind it.

Barspinz!

kenmc

happytramp wrote: »

Just curious, since I don't know any brakeless riders but see many of them around. Is there any (even remote) advantage to riding a fixed gear bike with no brake? I can't imagine there is but I'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind it.

Speed.

Nietzschean

kenmc wrote: »

Speed.

speed? how can you go faster?

Lumen

Nietzschean wrote: »

speed? how can you go faster?

Because it's impossible to stop.

Chips Lovell

Nietzschean wrote: »

speed? how can you go faster?

It stops you from slowing down.

Lumen

Also, you can't get brake rub if you don't have any brakes.

manwithaplan

You can fit even narrower handlebars.;)

Any you can more easily hang your shabby chic shopping bags off them.

kenmc

el tonto wrote: »

It stops you from slowing down.

AND it's lighter - no calipers, no cable and no brake lever - gotta be at least 150gms there

niceonetom

What's more aero than internal cable routing?

No cable routing.

amazingemmet

There's also a new trend in london among the fashionable set to ride single speed bikes, not fixed, with no breaks or only a front break. Over the last while I've been seeing of people faceplanting/ bailing off the bike to stop.

Lumen

amazingemmet wrote: »

There's also a new trend in london among the fashionable set to ride single speed bikes, not fixed, with no breaks or only a front break.

I thought that stuff only happened on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH5W1Z23wPg

Moflojo

amazingemmet wrote: »

There's also a new trend in london among the fashionable set to ride single speed bikes, not fixed, with no breaks or only a front break. Over the last while I've been seeing of people faceplanting/ bailing off the bike to stop.

Lemmings?

monkeypants

This reminds of a very near miss that I had a long time ago, over twenty years ago now. Funny thing is that I was just thinking about this incident last night.

I cycle up to a friend's house and park my bike. He comes out, we chat and muck about for a bit, his brother joins us for a short while, then they both go in and I hop on my bike to head home.

Their house was on a hill with a short, very steep driveway leading out at 90 degrees onto a busy straight main road just past the crest of a hill. Brakes are needed. However, one of the two lads decided that it would be funny to lift the front brake cable out of the anchor (illustration below was the best that I could find).



So off I go, but when the time comes to brake, I don't have any worth mentioning. Both feet go down, back brake is pulled and I manage to turn/skid the bike around just before coming on to the road and continue down the grass verge for about twenty feet before coming to a stop. An artic comes past. I'm shaking with fear and rage and there was a huge row to follow. We ceased to be friends shortly afterward. He didn't mean anything by it, he's just one of those challenged people who doesn't understand consequences.

billy.fish

This is about the only form of brakeless riding that makes me smile:

http://vimeo.com/2924815

Akrigg is a god

happytramp

billy.fish wrote: »

This is about the only form of brakeless riding that makes me smile:

http://vimeo.com/2924815

Akrigg is a god

Okay, that was pretty cool. But you could do that with brakes right?

billy.fish

happytramp wrote: »

Okay, that was pretty cool. But you could do that with brakes right?

Me. No.

But i think you are missing the point, its taking something that is exceptionally hard and making it harder.

Rather than taking something safe and making it very stupid.

Long time fixie rider (well before most of ye knew what one was) and have always rode with at least a front brake unless i'm on the track.

petethedrummer

billy.fish wrote: »

This is about the only form of brakeless riding that makes me smile: http://vimeo.com/2924815 Akrigg is a god

Judging by that video, the only way to stop with a freewheel and no brakes is to jump up, spin yourself and the bike 180 degrees and start pedalling. Then you should hit the ground at a dead stop.

Or there is of course the childhood heel between the seat tube and back tyre method.... until your mother sees the groove in your shoe.

seamus

billy.fish wrote: »

But i think you are missing the point, its taking something that is exceptionally hard and making it harder.

Exactly. Not only do you have to jump onto the object, but you also have to hit it at exactly the correct speed so that your momentum doesn't cause you to overshoot. If you're going to talk about zen, then brakeless singlespeed trials is proper zen stuff - being intimately connected with your bike and the laws of physics. Brakeless riding on the streets is for posers.

fishfoodie

Is it possible to get a fixie with a back pedal brake rear hub ?

Used to enjoy riding these occasionally when I was a kid; it only takes a few minutes before you get used to them, & then you start to test just how big a skid you can pull on them

You'd lose the ability to reverse, but you can do a decent enough track stand using the brake.

amjon.

Ok so I ventured out on the mean streets of Dublin City this evening on my fixie. It's been a while since I rode a fixie in proper traffic and even longer since I rode a fixie drunk. So I spun in from my gaff, felt alot more "connected" to the road beneath me. After about four pints I felt the dissociation from the beer was partially nullified by this increased awareness of the road beneath due to the fixed gear. I went on to have about 5 more pints and then rode home, went ok - I mean I didn't end up in A and E this time. In my inebriated state I can testify that a fixed gear certainly does make one more aware of ones surroundings but I'm not sure does this increased awareness make a proper braking system redundant.

Bluefoam

amjon. wrote: »

Ok so I ventured out on the mean streets of Dublin City this evening on my fixie. It's been a while since I rode a fixie in proper traffic and even longer since I rode a fixie drunk. So I spun in from my gaff, felt alot more "connected" to the road beneath me. After about four pints I felt the dissociation from the beer was partially nullified by this increased awareness of the road beneath due to the fixed gear. I went on to have about 5 more pints and then rode home, went ok - I mean I didn't end up in A and E this time. In my inebriated state I can testify that a fixed gear certainly does make one more aware of ones surroundings but I'm not sure does this increased awareness make a proper braking system redundant.

• it is illegal to be in control of a vehicle while under the influence - imagine the stress a taxi driver might suffer if he had to clean your brains off his windscreen...
• please don't type in black, it doesn't show on some versions of boards

-Chris-

Lumen wrote: »

I thought that stuff only happened on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH5W1Z23wPg

Jesus, this guy is a plonker of the highest order! I can't believe I just watched that all the way to the end.

Arrrrrrrrgh!

billy.fish

fishfoodie wrote: »

Is it possible to get a fixie with a back pedal brake rear hub ?

Used to enjoy riding these occasionally when I was a kid; it only takes a few minutes before you get used to them, & then you start to test just how big a skid you can pull on them

You'd lose the ability to reverse, but you can do a decent enough track stand using the brake.

THink about what you said....

inherently a fixed wheel bike has a back pedal brake.

Moflojo

billy.fish wrote: »

THink about what you said....

inherently a fixed wheel bike has a back pedal brake.

No I think I understand what he meant.
I had a similar bike when I was a kid, it had one gear, you could freewheel on it but when you backpedalled it would lock the back wheel.
Not sure what the official name for this set up is.

-Chris-

If you can freewheel or backpedal while going forward then it's not a fixie.

Moflojo

-Chris- wrote: »

If you can freewheel or backpedal while going forward then it's not a fixie.

That's helpful...

-Chris-

What I'm saying is you're mixing up a fixed wheel bike (fixie) and a single speed.

Both only have one gear. A single speed has the ability to freewheel, whereas a fixie doesn't.
So if you want to slow down on a fixie, you pedal slower. To lock up the back wheel, you just stop pedalling (not as easy as it sounds). You can never stop pedalling on a fixie.
On a (non-fixie) single speed you can freewheel and backpedal while going forward.

You're talking about a back-pedal brake, where you can freewheel and if you pedal backwards it applies the back brake and if you back-pedal hard enough you'll do a skid.

This is the distinction billy.fish is alluding to.

CramCycle

fishfoodie wrote: »

Is it possible to get a fixie with a back pedal brake rear hub ?

Coaster brake (not a fixie, single speed), had one myself, hated it because I kept accidentally backpedaling when I freewheeled and it would lock up (as it's meant to).

amjon. wrote: »

I mean I didn't end up in A and E this time. In my inebriated state I can testify that a fixed gear certainly does make one more aware of ones surroundings but I'm not sure does this increased awareness make a proper braking system redundant.

I get what you mean. A guy I work with tried this and said his skull felt more intimately connected to the road.

Honestly though, how does it make you more aware of your surroundings? Do you notice red lights better, does your sight and hearing become heightened to identify other road users, unexpected situations? In fact the question should be asked, does riding a fixie drunk make you superman?

On both my fixed and freewheel, I am equally connected to the road

By two wheels, nothing else, unless I crash, then it's two wheels and a large patch of skin and innards

happytramp

Maybe being more 'aware' of your surroundings is actually like being more 'afraid' of your surroundings?

JayEnnis

What Chris akrigg is doing there isn't trials, its a gay version of bmx.

I ride road with two brakes, downhill with two brakes and bmx with no brakes.

Why do I ride bmx with no brakes? Well I was sick of session being ended if I buckled my wheel in the slightest. I could only barspin once and then had to spin it back the opposite way which I'm not comfortable with (Don't even mention a gyro). It doesn't give you the ''pussy out'' option when your hitting something and I feel you flow better. As long as you don't ride in traffic then I don't see the harm in it. I know for a fact that you maintain a better situational awareness when riding brakeless so thats also another factor to consider. And last but not least.

I can do it legally because I ride a kids bike.

Look at any video on this, the biggest site in bmx and you'll see that 99% of them are riding brakeless.

http://thecomeupbmx.net/

CramCycle

JayEnnis wrote: »

I can do it legally because I ride a kids bike.

Not being smart here, what can you do legally when on a kids bike that you can't do on an adults bike?

JayEnnis

CramCycle wrote: »

Not being smart here, what can you do legally when on a kids bike that you can't do on an adults bike?

I can ride on footpaths, without lights, reflectors, brakes etc..