New grading system from cycling Ireland

fondriest

Personally i think the a4 cat was a success this year even though it needs some changes, for example one of my club mates got 8 top 6 places before he was upgraded because of the 3,2,1 points and this guy wanted to earn his way to a3 rather than self promotion. People are saying on here that a4 was easy this year and yes in some races it was but in other races when avg speed was compared to a3 events it was very similar all though the a3 races were obviously longer. Next year if somebody like Damian Shaw starts racing in sport with no points to upgrade him he would win every race for the season and no doubt put other riders off racing. So i will definatly be emailing cycling ireland and i think anyone who has a strong opinion about the changes should do the same.

DirkVoodoo

Would a very strong rider really want to sit in a sport category with no hopes of promotion from winning? Like Fondriest said, cyclists are a proud bunch and a lot of A4s who should be higher up wanted to gain promotion through results and points. Removing this option means that sport becomes an actual beginners category

Maybe the way to go is just to fast track promotions from A4:

(a) In road races, up to 60km, points to be awarded 3-2-1
(b) In road races over 60km and up to 100km, points to be awarded: 6-5-4-3-2-1

Maybe bring 6-5-4-3-2-1 into the less than 60 km races too?

Current 3rd cats without any CI ranking points
Vets just in it for a bit of fun
New Women riders still finding their feet as deemed by the Women’s Commission
“Underdeveloped” juniors as deemed by the Youth Commission
Club Competition license upgrades
It is expected this group will be approximated 450 riders

The listing of A4 riders is also bizarre: vets in it "for fun", women "finding their feet" and "underdeveloped juniors" are lumped in with guys who have possibly been racing for a while at a decent level but haven't picked up points.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

The listing of A4 riders is also bizarre: vets in it "for fun", women "finding their feet" and "underdeveloped juniors" are lumped in with guys who have possibly been racing for a while at a decent level but haven't picked up points.

You cannot be in A4 and have been "racing for a while at decent level", since A4 is by definition not "a decent level" in competitive cycling terms.

Hence "underdeveloped juniors". From what I have been told, juniors with any ambition do not want to be racing in A4 at all. It looks bad on their palmarès.

RobFowl

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Would a very strong rider really want to sit in a sport category with no hopes of promotion from winning?

I know quite a few who'd happily turn up week in week out to whup ass with no shame whatsoever

Quigs Snr

Anyone who remembers the previous combined category will tell you tales of respected Vets and Juniors winning A races one weekend and taking it easy by winning the Combined / C race the following weekend... so don't think for a second that pride or ability will push all strong riders to voluntarily upgrade !

A4 was easy to hang into this year compared to the C races of previous years as already stated, nonetheless it is still difficult enough to win one, so I would not totally rubbish the category, I have ridden with A4 race winners and runners up this year who have been dropping RAS riders on the hills in training. Nonetheless there are not enough of them to dominate and in general the races are fair and open. I think it is just right as a beginners category and the turnouts this year would support this view.

I think that if newbies want to test themselves they should do leisure rides / competitive sportifs and train with a club, which in my club essentially means every spin degenerates into a race at certain times of the year.

If they are seriously proposing a race for complete newbies, so people who don't want to train with a group/club as suggested by a previous poster can turn up and compete then I have a couple of issues:

1. No prize Money - never could understand this, would prefer a trophy myself or medals. But if there are no prizes then there better not be full price licences and race entries then.

2. Safety. Although the world is all about correctness and inclusiveness these days, I do not want to be in a race with a bunch of riders who have not done their time with a club learning how to handle themselves in a bunch and just as importantly having the fitness to maintain concentration whilst under pressure and tired. Simply it will be a demolition derby and I would not like my expensive bikes and priceless limbs to be jeopardised.

Send your feedback to that email address folks. If anything I reckon their big issue is to reduce the size of the A3 category or maybe do something about the fact that the A1 category ceases to exist after the RAS more or less (notice how few A1 races have happen in the last month or two ? For the ones that have, did you spot how low the attendances were ?).

velo.2010

Tres Bizarre No?

My idea was to give A4 a crack next year with the hope that my long miles in the mountains would give me the stamina over 60 odd kms to do a decent job.

Now this sport category will be less than 50 kms with probably a whole load of 'gallopers' used to doing well in shorter club league races carving up the races. Preumably they'll be over a flat and easy course as well.

I'll have no choice but to upgrade because the only routes tough and long enough will be in A3. Probably still get blown away but hey-ho.

fondriest

If this change goes ahead, a large number of a4 riders will take the option to ride a3 next year rather than sport which in fairness would be the way to go,but this will lead to huge a3 fields for the early season races in particular and as Quigs mentioned safety is supposed to be a prime concern and 150 a3s sqeezing around the circuit in bohermeen for example would be carnage.

DirkVoodoo

velo.2010 wrote: »

Tres Bizarre No?

My idea was to give A4 a crack next year with the hope that my long miles in the mountains would give me the stamina over 60 odd kms to do a decent job.

Now this sport category will be less than 50 kms with probably a whole load of 'gallopers' used to doing well in shorter club league races carving up the races. Preumably they'll be over a flat and easy course as well.

I'll have no choice but to upgrade because the only routes tough and long enough will be in A3. Probably still get blown away but hey-ho.

Have you got Joe Friel's training bible? I bought it on Aidan's recommendation and it's a bit of an eye opener. If you want to compete in the open races it can be done but it's worth developing a training regime for next year tailored to the actual races.

You can get it off amazon quite cheap, well worth it.

velo.2010

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Have you got Joe Friel's training bible? I bought it on Aidan's recommendation and it's a bit of an eye opener. If you want to compete in the open races it can be done but it's worth developing a training regime for next year tailored to the actual races.

You can get it off amazon quite cheap, well worth it.

Wot, dont you trust my ability Dirk. Didn't you say yesterday I should do the Gorey 3 day? Together the 'Boards Brothers of Destruction' will lay the Smack'd Down'd on all those A3 gibrone's.:D

Ryaner

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Would a very strong rider really want to sit in a sport category with no hopes of promotion from winning? Like Fondriest said, cyclists are a proud bunch and a lot of A4s who should be higher up wanted to gain promotion through results and points. Removing this option means that sport becomes an actual beginners category

Maybe the way to go is just to fast track promotions from A4:



Maybe bring 6-5-4-3-2-1 into the less than 60 km races too?



The listing of A4 riders is also bizarre: vets in it "for fun", women "finding their feet" and "underdeveloped juniors" are lumped in with guys who have possibly been racing for a while at a decent level but haven't picked up points.

I like this idea, but if they are really after forcing the stronger riders to upgrade, then maybe take it a step further.

8 to 1 points for all A4 races. Then lower it that 9 points are needed to upgrade. Strong guy wins, next race places, bang, upgraded. Gets the upgrades pretty quickly and also stops the lucky one-offs being upgraded.

High Nellie

"Race for fun" as opposed to "race for what?" How patronising. What do A3s race for? No cash prizes - will that mean reduced entry fees for the 'sports'? I bet not - the race organisers will see it as a way of making a quick buck from what they will see as naive wannabees.

fondriest

Just a suggestion but maybe one of the mods could email a link to this tread to cycling ireland . Or maybe not?

Beasty

fondriest wrote: »

Just a suggestion but maybe one of the mods could email a link to this tread to cycling ireland . Or maybe not?

No reason why you can't e-mail a link yourself;)

High Nellie

Yea, well if they do read it maybe they'll tell us why they have requested feedback AFTER the decision has been made - they tell us the changes will be "enforced" after a "workshop". What is the point of feedback from the plebs then? So much for consultation with the clubs and membership.

Inquitus

High Nellie wrote: »

"Race for fun" as opposed to "race for what?" How patronising. What do A3s race for? No cash prizes - will that mean reduced entry fees for the 'sports'? I bet not - the race organisers will see it as a way of making a quick buck from what they will see as naive wannabees.

As a naive wannabee, and from a very naive POV, it would be nice to have a low level of organised racing that would be achieveable from a low fitness base within the first 6 months or so of effort. I realise I am looking at this from the bottom, and have no idea at all what the impact of these changes will have to established riders, but if I work from where I am at, it would be nice to be able to ride with similar incompetents early next season. It would be both motivational and providing of some satisfaction. I am 34 next month, and may well fall into the MAMILS acronym, but for a sport to flourish it has to try to cater to as many people who have interest in it as it can.

I have made great strides so far and may myself regret making these comments before the clocks go forward next March, but this thread does in places smack of elitism and sound potentially off-putting for someone in my position.

Most sports do cater for low level competition for those who have recently joined and possess low levels of fitness and skill, and that is what motivates them to progress further up the chain.

Inq

Quigs Snr

I understand your position Inquitus and we were/are all in it at some stage/ Triathlon in particular is excellent at catering to newcomers, but the individual nature of the event lends itself well to that. On the other hand cycling in large bunches is dangerous even for elite riders (see Tour De France). If you put in a half decent 6 months and get a few group rides in an A4 race will be no trouble to you. From that point, the racing itself will bring you on to the next level. All I want is for riders to put an initial and pretty small investment in for their own enjoyment and the safety of themselves and others. Much like I'd like new drivers to learn how to drive before they potentially turn their 1.3l Honda Civic with "lexus" lights into a missile that can kill me.

Between now and March you can easily develop the skills and fitness to be competitive in A4 racing, particularly if you have been in any way active in a sport at any point in your life, but you have to put the work in. Much like if I decided to take up Mixed Martial arts I would prefer to do a little training and sparring beforehand to reduce the chances of having my head twisted off like a bottlecap in my first fight. This is not being eliteist.

I have seen guys get off a sofa and struggle to finish the 50k Sean Kelly last August who have won in April of this year at A4 and others who have been able to hang in there. There are no excuses for anyone wanting to get into racing at the current levels and failing to do so.

ROK ON

@Quigs. Your points are valid and common sense, and apply to all sports. Only issue I see is that for some people you can get race fit, but if you live in the sticks with only very small clubs nearby (and no club league?), then other than sportives, you wont ever get to train in a large group prior to your first race. This in particular will be an issue that I face next year. Not a lot I can do about it other than get in as much training in terms of the fitness required and riding with whatever type of group I can manage (even if it is a very small group).
Lots of folk here are lucky by dint of the fact that they are members of organised clubs, large clubs, lots of club choice in their area, or an area with a strong club tradition. There are parts of the country where the clubs are very small from what I can see, and not well organised.

On that basis, the Sports category may suit me better until I find my feet than me being a mobile chicance in a mixed A3/A4 race.

Inquitus

@Quigs

From my naive POV, with no idea about competitive racing, I cannot argue against your points especially with regard to safety. I will continue working away and see come the new season if that puts me in a place to be able to compete safely and reasonably competively at the lowest level. I would merely caution that elitism can be off putting and discourage participation in any sport.

Diarmuid

High Nellie wrote: »

"Race for fun" as opposed to "race for what?" How patronising. What do A3s race for? No cash prizes - will that mean reduced entry fees for the 'sports'? I bet not - the race organisers will see it as a way of making a quick buck from what they will see as naive wannabees.

From what I've seen of bike racing, if you want to make a quick buck, bike racing is the wrong business

showry

I think A4 was working exactly as it was meant to. For its initial season it drew in lots of newbies/club comp upgrades as well as a few experienced vets etc. who found themselves in the category. Despite the ludicrous points on offer the wheat was split from the chaff (and trust me I was in the middle of the chaff). By the end of the season we had a bunch who were riding much safer than they were at the start of the year, more riders with the confidence to try an escape (more often than not unsuccessful but..), all at pretty much the same level. And I'm sure everyone else was the same as me; knowing what was needed in winter's training to solo away to a win in Broadford in the first race next year.
Quigs is right, A4 was easy to hang in to this year but a lot harder to escape from. With the best will in the world most of us won't have a hope of getting anything out of A3 next season so it will be an exercise in wheelsucking; albeit with dangerously big bunches.

fondriest

Beasty wrote: »

No reason why you can't e-mail a link yourself;)

Will give it a go so. Be warned it took five attempts to stick a picture of the bike up on images of beauty (would'nt exactly be a computer wiz)

jimbo28

Maybe somebody already suggested this but why not have both. As a guy who was off the bike for ten years plus, the A4 cat was great this year, i did a couple of races under A3 last year ( when i was dabbling and wondering should i or could i come back to cycling) and it nearly turned me right off again.......the demand on me was too much and the levels of fitness required in my opionion were huge. this year i have a power of cycling done.......maybe 6000 miles since feb and am enjoying putting up the miles, but i dont know if i will be able to devote as much time next year. A4 was perfect for me this year although i would argue at this stage that i am capable of riding A3........................come feb i wont. so i ask again why not have both?

rubs

Sorry, just dipping late into this thread so had a chance to read it through from the start. Its quiet evident that the solution put forward by most contributors is progression from A4 to A3 should be a lot quicker. Plain and simple!!

No need to re-invent the wheel and introduce new gradings....madness after just one year.

As for..

........people off to the gentle bosom of triathlon and other "participation oriented" sports....

anybody that has endured the first 100m of a triathlon swim, particularly in open water, could never describe it as gentle:eek:

only stirring....I know you meant it in a more general context....;)

Beasty

Looks like I'm straight in as an A2. Time to retire unbeaten in an open race I think:D

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

Looks like I'm straight in as an A2. Time to retire unbeaten in an open race I think:D

Same here I'll go from an A4 to an A2 next year....

Didn't even have to score any points :rolleyes:

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

Same here I'll go from an A4 to an A2 next year....

Didn't even have to score any points :rolleyes:

I think if you keep your CI licence you would not automatically fall into A2. It seems to be only those racing on an IVCA licence that are affected, and fall automatically into A2 (or presumably A1 if they are already there)

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

I think if you keep your CI licence you would not automatically fall into A2. It seems to be only those racing on an IVCA licence that are affected, and fall automatically into A2 (or presumably A1 if they are already there)

Seeing as how I took the CI licence to race in the A4 cats I'll just be getting an IVCA one next year. Covers the league and the VET's.
If I do want to race open races I'll do the A3 with a one day licence.
If I did an A2 it'd be a fairly short event :rolleyes:

GP4

Quigs sr is right in relation to the safety aspect of "introductory" cycle racing, sitting in a bunch of 40+ cyclists for a beginner for the first time is not great for anyone concerned and the bike handling in a lot of the open races has been poor... Should non-club members or non Cycling Ireland members be allowed to just turn up and compete on the day with the use of a one day licence? Would it be better to ensure that those racing were club members and had experienced some degree of training in a group etc?
The introduction of the A4 group had helped to reduce the size of the A3 group as cycling has really undergone a resurgence and the size of the fields has been increasing. At what stage will field numbers have to be restricted especially in the early season with one large A3 group to cater for the lower tier of racing? The introduction of the A4 was a good move by Cycling Ireland, the points allocation for placings and events in this category need to be re-examined to allow for fair upgrading as previous posters have mentioned and this should be sufficient to ensure that the category works as it was intended.

The Crunch

I've been following this thread with great interest but didn't get around to posting my tuppence worth until now.
When A4 was introduced at the start of the season I was in two minds about whether to upgrade to A3 or go with where they put me. This was my fourth season back racing after a 17-year layoff. I raced a good bit as Junior and young Senior without any notable results before packing it in to get drunk and chase women. Not surprisingly it took me a few years to get up to speed in Open racing when I came back and by the end of '09 the most I could expect was a comfortable bunch finish in combined Vet/3rd Cat/Junior/Women races.
Work prevented me from doing the Gorey this year so I threw myself into A4 racing, half hoping/half expecting that I'd be able to get upgraded without too much difficulty. However, and it had occurred to me that it might be the case, it was only when some of the really talented guys raced through their promotion that I became competitive in the races. Even when the top tier moved up I had to rely on experience to hang onto the coat tails of some really talented novice athletes who tend to scamper up hills like startled Ibex but are a little less savvy when the road flattens out.
Still, I managed to get lots of prizes in races, usually unplaced handicap prizes in the early season races and often fourth to sixth place prizes after that in races less than 60km in length.
That was the most frustrating thing for me: The organisers were very willing to run A4 races but they were too short to get full ranking points and it seemed like a bit of a glass ceiling for a while. I finally got my promotion in the very last race I could do this year, the Betty D'Arcy Memorial in Gorey yesterday. Of course, the whole promotion chasing thing could be a bit irrelevant as they're planning to introduce the Sport Category next year which I think would be a backward step.
Part of the thinking seems to be to remove the novice racers from the experienced guys so they can race on their own but that, I believe would be a big mistake. It's incredible how much smoother and safer the A4 races became as the season progressed and riders got the hang of it. Part of that was because they were encountering the quicker bunches as the groups caught A4 in the handicaps. Seeing how it works in the bigger and faster bunches is a great benefit to new riders. There were some crashes early in the season in A4 but they tended to be solo spills, not the mass pileups we saw with greater frequency in the A3 bunch. A4 riders are, as a bunch, a little more timid and less aggressive and I can state categorically after a crash free season that A4 races are definitely safer than A3. If I had the legs, I'd go straight to A2.
I understand that organisers want to get the A4 race done and dusted before they deal with the bigger races but it's a shame that so many of the races are so short. I'd be willing to bet that lots of the people who took out racing licences for the first time this year were encouraged to do so by their experience in sportives and randonees. To suddenly ask riders used to doing 100 mile epics to do a 22 mile road race seems a little silly. Two to two and half hours of racing is about right.
Either way I think they should ditch the 60km rule for upgrade points. The same strong lads tend to hoover up the prizes regardless of the race length. I know Lumen was talking about me when he mentioned a few riders that didn't self-upgrade because they wanted to earn promotion acording to the rules. I'd love to have moved up earlier, to be honest but I'm happy I stuck it out and earned it. I know Shaungil feels the same way. A little tweaking of the points rules is all that's needed.
Oh, and why not give money prizes for A4/Sport races? Frankly it was fun picking up a bit of petrol money this year and I'm well aware I won't get as many envelopes next year but why treat the lowest category as if they're second class citizens? Divvy up the race entry after expenses. It doesn't have to be a fortune.
I believe that the Sport Category proposal is not yet set in stone. Hopefully they keep the A4 experiment running next year. It's been one of the best developments of a young and go ahead group of officials in Cycling Ireland who working hard to create a bedrock for the future of the sport. Fair play to them.

mickmcl09

One season down with the current A4s and some of the stronger riders have been up-graded, albeit not enough of them and at too slow a rate. As a result the grade is finding its own level, as are the safety levels

More points to speed up the upgrade.

So why are CI trying to mend something thats not broken. If they're that keen on creating a new grade could they not have created A5?

A3 is already at a point where entries are going to have to be limited and on a first come basis/pre entry only. The A4 group is fine as it is in terms of the volume of participants.

This new proposal is moving the goal posts for the A4, someone said something like treating the participants of this new classification like '2nd class citizens'.

If CI see this new proposal as a way of broadening their base, A5 would have put that to bed straight away, and let us A4 earn our way into A3 even if it happens sooner rather than later with more points being put on offer at races.

The Crunch

News from the Road Commission:- http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_5207.shtml
Personally I'm delighted to see that they've taken on the views expressed by the majority here.

niceonetom

CI wrote:

A4
Consisting of current A4 riders and new members to competitive racing. Former International Riders are not eligible for A4. Organizers are encouraged to promote A4 only races. Such races will not be in excess of 80km. A4s may race with other categories in a handicap situation only subject to the 80km distance restriction. A4s will not be allowed to compete in ANY stage race with any of the other categories.
A4s who scored points in 2010 will carry forward 100% of the points scored into 2011. The maximum number of prizes to be presented will not exceed the first 6 places.

A4 to A3 = 10 points

Good stuff. I'd say the current A3s are relieved that the flood of A4s self- promoting will be smaller now. Glad to see CI listening and responding so well.

Chips Lovell

Great news. Just goes to show how worthwhile it was everyone writing in

mumfordandsons

Yeah well done to cycling ireland for taken our points on board, look forward to racing A4 next season again now. great news.

fondriest

As said above its nice to see that CI actually listened and avoided taking a huge step backwards. And should lead to safer racing next year.

ajk24

www.cyclingireland.ie

High Nellie

It's good to see that they were not so thick as to dig in their heels when they realised it was wrong. The changes proposed are good too.
The problem is there are going to be even bigger numbers competing next year ....

billy.fish

High Nellie wrote: »

The problem is there are going to be even bigger numbers competing next year ....

Thats not a problem, thats a net gain for cycling as a whole. Hopefully it will get people to move out of A4 and up to A3.

GlennaMaddy

A4 Riders cannot participate in a stage race with other categories.

Looks like TainTeamTour.com format will have to change, pity :-(

Lumen

GlennaMaddy wrote: »

A4 Riders cannot participate in a stage race with other categories.

Looks like TainTeamTour.com format will have to change, pity :-(

I thought that was the same rule as this year?

GlennaMaddy

Lumen wrote: »

I thought that was the same rule as this year?

It could be, if somebody would Google that for me and quote the old rules that'd clarify things:D

Toblerone1978

I think it is, without being too sure.

If it's the same as last year, is it possible to take out a one-day licence to participate at A3 level?

Chips Lovell

Mod Note: Threads merged

Slideshowbob

Toblerone1978 wrote: »

I think it is, without being too sure.

If it's the same as last year, is it possible to take out a one-day licence to participate at A3 level?

Surely not. That's akin to having two licences. Then you could keep riding lower grade races and never get upgraded

Toblerone1978

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Surely not. That's akin to having two licences. Then you could keep riding lower grade races and never get upgraded

Where I was coming from was for the stage races, such as the Gorey etc. If you have an A4 licence but decide to contest some A3 races (simply because there isn't A4 races available) by taking out a one-day licence, I don't see how that impact on the A4 races. If you're strong enough and good enough to win races in A4 when you participate in them, and presuming you do win them, you'll be upgraded to an A3 permanently.

RobFowl

Toblerone1978 wrote: »

Where I was coming from was for the stage races, such as the Gorey etc. If you have an A4 licence but decide to contest some A3 races (simply because there isn't A4 races available) by taking out a one-day licence, I don't see how that impact on the A4 races. If you're strong enough and good enough to win races in A4 when you participate in them, and presuming you do win them, you'll be upgraded to an A3 permanently.

Bob is right here. If you already have a licence you are in breach of the regulations by taking out a one day licence to ride at a different level. You are free to apply for an A3 licence automatically.

I can see where they are coming form not letting A4's ride stage races. Realisically if you are strong enough to ride one then you are too strong for the A4 cat.

Also I don't think you can take out 1 day licences to ride stage races.

Ps fair play to CI for listening to the feedback.

mtbireland

here here.... if you're thinking about riding stage races then A4 is not the place for you... step up and get an A3 licence....

Chips Lovell

Tend to agree with RobFowl and mtbireland, even though I'm an A4 who'd like to ride the Gorey. The race is oversubscribed as it is. If you're good enough to ride it, you really should be taking out an A3 licence.

Quigs Snr

Some 3 days races did have A4's in them e.g. Corkman and Charleville as well as Balinrobe, but Gorey no. For other A3 races, one day races that it, you could always apply for a one day using your name in Irish. Not that I condone that sort of thing or know any who did so. The characters in this post are totally fictional and bear no resemblance to actual events or persons.

Slideshowbob

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Some 3 days races did have A4's in them e.g. Corkman and Charleville as well as Balinrobe, but Gorey no. For other A3 races, one day races that it, you could always apply for a one day using your name in Irish. Not that I condone that sort of thing or know any who did so. The characters in this post are totally fictional and bear no resemblance to actual events or persons.

That's terrible