As a Christian how do you feel about other religions.

caseyann

While i dont believe in other religions and i think theirs is in correct one.
I do not personally care what they believe or how they live.
So my question to you is do you want to see Christian faith all over the world?
Does it bother you either way?
And would you try to make them live our ways of life in Arab etc.. Muslim majority countries?
Because of the comments i seen made in the God the delusion program. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4321574955310561251#
Barr ofc the stoning women and suicide bombers.

strobe

Would be a bit heartless if you didn't want to see the Christian faith all over the world seeing as non christians will be tortured for eternity when they die, no?

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

Would be a bit heartless if you didn't want to see the Christian faith all over the world seeing as non christians will be tortured for eternity when they die, no?

Not all Christians believe this. For example, Abraham was a non-Christian and we believe he is saved.

raah!

Is there any officicial Christian stance towards the validity of the other religions?

Plebs

raah! wrote: »

Is there any officicial Christian stance towards the validity of the other religions?

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. While many Muslims, Buddhists and atheists live moral lives, they have been deceived by earthly forces and I'm confident that this would be a big mitigating factor when presenting themselves at the gates of St Peter.

All human persons should be treated with basic dignity and respect, no matter what their faith/belief system, no matter what their crime and no matter what heresy they preach.

Fanny Cradock

Abraham was a Roman Catholic, right?

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Not all Christians believe this. For example, Abraham was a non-Christian and we believe he is saved.

All non-Christians born after the death* of Jesus. Am I doin it right?

Edit: *and resurrection (See, I seen that coming) :pac:

The Smurf

I know they don't like copying and pasting here, so I will refer readers to sections 14-16 of the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH - LUMEN GENTIUM: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

As well as "DOMINUS IESUS" ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Of note from Lumen Gentium are these excerpts:

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [...]

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. [...] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Best read them in context.

raah!

Does 15 mean that because those other branches of christianity are linked with the catholic church, they are included in what is said in 14? Feel free to not answer this though, sometimes it is just easier to be told things by a person .

lmaopml

raah! wrote: »

Is there any officicial Christian stance towards the validity of the other religions?

Good question!

It can get complicated lol...

..but I would say there is a 'spirit' within true Christians that recognises the spirit in others of various denominations and even faiths...

Think of the 'good samaritan' and that's where we look to see what Jesus himself saw in the 'individual'...

..while we are called to 'proclaim' our truth in Christ and his Gospel, we are not fit to judge the individual properly in the sense of their salvation...

As regards, 'validity', I would imagine that most Christian denominations believe there is only 'one' way to the Father and that is through the Son..Jesus...and 'that' is what we are called to bring to all nations, and to proclaim the Gospel to all nations..

I am Catholic, I believe the 'fullness' of faith is found only within the Catholic faith for my own reasons...others disagree with me, and some others agree with me..... but being a 'Christian' as described in the broader way, is more than a faith - it is a way of life, tolerance, love, acceptance etc. We are called to try to imitate Christ..and this is what my own faith teaches, and recognises in the individual, even if some of us fail dreadfully sometimes..

We're not meant to 'judge' others but we are definitely not gagged as this forum demonstrates..lol...

The Smurf

raah! wrote: »

Does 15 mean that because those other branches of christianity are linked with the catholic church, they are included in what is said in 14? Feel free to not answer this though, sometimes it is just easier to be told things by a person .

15. Essentially refers to the Orthodox and the Protestants.

14. Refers exclusively to the Catholics, and the catechumens preparing for baptism. I didn't post the whole section, so you might like to read it all for yourself.

I'd recommend you also read Dominus Iesus in its entirety.

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

All non-Christians born after the death* of Jesus. Am I doin it right?

Edit: *and resurrection (See, I seen that coming) :pac:

Sorry, I don't follow.

Ush1

Thought it was "Thou shalt not worship false gods or prophets"?

caseyann

I am curious why no one has answered the original questions i asked lol and going around in circles

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Sorry, I don't follow.

Sorry Fanny. I was saying that, as far as I understand, people prior to the death and resurection of Jesus, such as Abraham and Noah, were afforded a kind of retrospective salvation, if not some other salvation, but after the fact, only Christians went to heaven.

So any non-Christians born after (circa)34AD went to Hell {or purgatory if you're a Catholic} when they died? If I'm wrong on this I'm going right back to the drawing board.

Am I right?{not a rhetorical question}

Plebs

caseyann wrote: »

So my question to you is do you want to see Christian faith all over the world?

Yes.

caseyann wrote: »

Does it bother you either way?

I wish for all of humanity to share in the love of Jesus Christ.

caseyann wrote: »

And would you try to make them live our ways of life in Arab etc.. Muslim majority countries?

If the faith becomes threatened/swamped, then I suppose the sensible thing is to retreat and reassemble a couple of years/decades later. Christianity does not rule by the sword. Countries like Saudi Arabia could take 100s or 1000s of years to convert.

lmaopml

Well, there were a number of questions op. I think they have been answered to be honest throughout the thread...

However, yes Christians believe in 'Christ' as the one and 'only' savior...

The real Christian way of life is to live peacefully with those who believe otherwise, but to proclaim the Gospel and the 'truth' ( for me the Catholic church) and fight for human dignity, while respecting same..

The answer is simple really, we are given free will and taught to respect others and not pass judgement...but to embrace a Christian way of life..

'Force' of our belief as regards the means and true motivations are always questionable to everybody of any denomintion or creed...but human actions never ever underscore the way of life....'It' speaks for itself and is an individual thing...

Do I believe in other 'gods'....as a Christian, other than the God who manifested in the form of Jesus Christ...?

..quite simply 'No' would be my answer. Do I 'hate' those others who believe in other gods or none, quite simply 'No'...would be the answer.

..but I will certainly fight for my human rights to practice my faith in a free society and lend my voice to it's political evolution....that is always justified imo if it's peaceful and democratic.

krudler

Plebs wrote: »

If the faith becomes threatened/swamped, then I suppose the sensible thing is to retreat and reassemble a couple of years/decades later. Christianity does not rule by the sword. Countries like Saudi Arabia could take 100s or 1000s of years to convert.

What about the Crusades?

Plebs

krudler wrote: »

What about the Crusades?

What about them? Sure if you cast your net wide enough and wait long enough, you'll be sure to find some human failings along the way. Just look at what's gone on in this country since we became a republic in 1949.

Christianity has experienced many different times in her long history. Many of the deaths druing that 200 year period were justified. The fact that we live in (relatively) peaceful times here in Europe should not be taken for granted.

krudler

Plebs wrote: »

What about them? Sure if you cast your net wide enough and wait long enough, you'll be sure to find some human failings along the way. Just look at what's gone on in this country since we became a republic in 1949.

Christianity has experienced many different times in her long history. Many of the deaths druing that 200 year period were justified. The fact that we live in (relatively) peaceful times here in Europe should not be taken for granted.

What on earth has us being a republic got to do with the crusades?

Seaneh

krudler wrote: »

What about the Crusades?

Were about politics and money. Like all wars. And used Religion as a justification, like a lot of wars.

Christianity never started a war. Men started wars and used Christianity (and other religions) as a smokescreen.

Find me one place in the new testament where it says to invade a country or start a war and I'll let ya away with your ignorance.

Plebs

krudler wrote: »

What on earth has us being a republic got to do with the crusades?

How many people have died as a result of State negligence do you think? And how does it make you feel as a tax payer?

krudler

Seaneh wrote: »

Were about politics and money. Like all wars. And used Religion as a justification, like a lot of wars.

Christianity never started a war. Men started wars and used Christianity (and other religions) as a smokescreen.

Find me one place in the new testament where it says to invade a country or start a war and I'll let ya away with your ignorance.

They were still heavily influenced by the idea of returning the holy land back to christian rule though, it was in the name of christianity that they were fought, wars sanctioned by the church.

Fanny Cradock

strobe wrote: »

Sorry Fanny. I was saying that, as far as I understand, people prior to the death and resurection of Jesus, such as Abraham and Noah, were afforded a kind of retrospective salvation, if not some other salvation, but after the fact, only Christians went to heaven.

So any non-Christians born after (circa)34AD went to Hell {or purgatory if you're a Catholic} when they died? If I'm wrong on this I'm going right back to the drawing board.

Am I right?{not a rhetorical question}

Back to the drawing board for you, my friend

philologos

caseyann: I want to see Christianity made available all over the world, so that people have the opportunity to find out more about it, and to receive the hope that I personally have experienced. It isn't out of spite that I wish this. I hope to see people come to know about the Gospel, because it is genuinely life-changing. I support spreading the Gospel through evangelism, and through holding events, distributing literature, preaching, debating and other forms, I don't support forcing it.

This would include all parts of the world from Saudi Arabia to Ireland.

The Smurf

krudler wrote: »

They were still heavily influenced by the idea of returning the holy land back to christian rule though, it was in the name of christianity that they were fought, wars sanctioned by the church.

The Muslims were giving Christians a hard time on their pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The Crusades, amongst other things, were an attempt to secure the area.

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Back to the drawing board for you, my friend

Seriously?

Man this stuff is weirder than quantum mechanics.

Where have I gone wrong in my understanding FC?

Do non-Christians born after the Jesus epic not go to Hell? If so I think I have been grossly misinformed during my forays into this forum.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Seriously?

Man this stuff is weirder than quantum mechanics.

Where have I gone wrong in my understanding FC?

Do non-Christians born after the Jesus epic not go to Hell? If so I think I have been grossly misinformed during my forays into this forum.

No, you just haven't bothered reading what a lot of us have been posting. However, I'll sum up the consensus of opinion from many previous threads.

Most posters here would believe that billions of children who died never having heard of Jesus will spend eternity with God.

There is a wide divergence of opinion about what happens to people who grow into adulthood but subsequently die without ever hearing the Gospel. A few posters think they are going to hell, others believe some of them will be saved. Many of us admit we don't know, and don't see that the Bible gives us much information one way or another, so we trust God to do what is just and righteous.

As for those who have heard the Gospel and choose to reject it, either in favor of another religion or being godless altogether? Some posters here hold out hope for their salvation - but a larger number of us think they're probably toast.

Then again, we have a few posters who think no-one goes to hell. So we're a bit of a mixed bag really.

strobe

PDN wrote: »

No, you just haven't bothered reading what a lot of us have been posting. However, I'll sum up the consensus of opinion from many previous threads.

Most posters here would believe that billions of children who died never having heard of Jesus will spend eternity with God.

There is a wide divergence of opinion about what happens to people who grow into adulthood but subsequently die without ever hearing the Gospel. A few posters think they are going to hell, others believe some of them will be saved. Many of us admit we don't know, and don't see that the Bible gives us much information one way or another, so we trust God to do what is just and righteous.

As for those who have heard the Gospel and choose to reject it, either in favor of another religion or being godless altogether? Some posters here hold out hope for their salvation - but a larger number of us think they're probably toast.

Then again, we have a few posters who think no-one goes to hell. So we're a bit of a mixed bag really.

I get the mixed bag thing PDN. But just to clarify things.... From your point of view, seeing as you responded and you do this professionally....

I understand from your post that.... If you have not heard the Gospel you have a free pass? No matter what? Or is it that if you have never sinned, you don't need to have heard of Jesus? (not much chance of a human having not sinned) If you have heard the Gospel and you don't go for Jesus you are going to hell? If you have heard the Gospel and you believe in Jesus and ask him to save your soul, not matter what you did you go to heaven?

I'm sure I'm wrong, but why?

PDN

strobe wrote: »

I get the mixed bag thing PDN. But just to clarify things.... From your point of view, seeing as you responded and you do this professionally....

I understand from your post that.... If you have not heard the Gospel you have a free pass? No matter what?

No, absolutely not. I don't see how you could have got that from my post.

I don't know what happens to those who have never heard the Gospel. I do know that God will be righteous and just in how He deals with them. A phrase often used by Christians is that "God will judge them according to the light they have received" - but the problem is that none of us as human beings live up to the light we have received.

Or is it that if you have never sinned, you don't need to have heard of Jesus? (not much chance of a human having not sinned)

This is why I mentioned children. A child that dies before they reach the age of knowing right from wrong can hardly be said to have sinned, so have no sin to be saved from. Sadly, based on historic rates of child mortality and current rates in the developing world, this category may comprise a majority of all human beings that have ever lived.

If you have heard the Gospel and you don't go for Jesus you are going to hell?

On that you're accurately summing up my feelings. Although I would stress that I am referring to hearing a genuine presentation of the Gospel. An Inca, for example, who only ever heard a conquistador saying, "Be baptised in the name of Jesus or I'll shove this sword through your throat" certainly never heard the Gospel.

If you have heard the Gospel and you believe in Jesus and ask him to save your soul, not matter what you did you go to heaven?

It's a bit more than 'believe in Jesus'. The biblical concept of faith is not just intellectual assent, but rather committing ourselves to trust Jesus and to live as His disciples and followers. A good example of this is the apostle Paul who used to be a murderer and a persecutor, but received forgiveness and was transformed.

philologos

The Smurf wrote: »

The Muslims were giving Christians a hard time on their pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The Crusades, amongst other things, were an attempt to secure the area.

Having read a good history of the First Crusade, I don't believe there was any justification for it. Most of it had to do with greed and wealth for individuals looking to set up kingdoms and find new opportunities where all were exhausted in Europe.

There was four inches of blood around the city of Jerusalem of Jews and Muslims there were that many killed. Jews throughout Europe were also heavily persecuted by the Crusaders on their way to the Holy Land.

That isn't the sum total of what happened either.

This is an act that all Christians rightfully should reject as any valid expression of their faith.

Plebs

Jakkass wrote: »

Having read a good history of the First Crusade, I don't believe there was any justification for it. Most of it had to do with greed and wealth for individuals looking to set up kingdoms and find new opportunities where all were exhausted in Europe.

There was four inches of blood around the city of Jerusalem of Jews and Muslims there were that many killed. Jews throughout Europe were also heavily persecuted by the Crusaders on their way to the Holy Land.

That isn't the sum total of what happened either.

This is an act that all Christians rightfully should reject as any valid expression of their faith.

Who are you to say what all Christians should or should not believe?

PDN

Plebs wrote: »

Who are you to say what all Christians should or should not believe?

As a Christian posting in a Christianity forum Jakkass is perfectly within his rights to offer his opinion that Christian faith should not include slaughtering Jews, desecrating Orthodox churches, or raping people. You are also free to disagree with him and to state your opinion if you feel that such activities are a valid expression of Christian faith.

I'm suggesting to you, as one of the moderators of this forum, that you try to be a bit less unpleasant to other posters. We get enough knuckleheads coming into here picking fights, so please don't add to their number.

Plebs

PDN wrote: »

As a Christian posting in a Christianity forum Jakkass is perfectly within his rights to offer his opinion that Christian faith should not include slaughtering Jews, desecrating Orthodox churches, or raping people. You are also free to disagree with him and to state your opinion if you feel that such activities are a valid expression of Christian faith.

I'm suggesting to you, as one of the moderators of this forum, that you try to be a bit less unpleasant to other posters. We get enough knuckleheads coming into here picking fights, so please don't add to their number.

I don't buy in to relativism, I don't like being told what I believe in and I don't compromise when it comes to faith. If you don't like that, perhaps you and your fellow moderators should reserve this zone for people of your liking.

philologos

Plebs wrote: »

I don't buy in to relativism, I don't like being told what I believe in and I don't compromise when it comes to faith. If you don't like that, perhaps you and your fellow moderators should reserve this zone for people of your liking.

It's not relativism. The First Crusade from what I have read was wholly immoral. I can't imagine Jesus endorsing it, indeed, I can't imagine any of the Apostles endorsing it either. The First Crusade is a typical result, of when power, greed, corruption, government, and religion mix themselves together.

Christian values are wholly and utterly in contradiction with the Crusades. The Gospel calls us to bring people to salvation, not to wholesale slaughter and indeed, some cases much more than wholesale slaughter in the name of Christianity.

It's a discussion forum, I'm just a little bit opinionated, we can discuss our point of view from a reasonable perspective. Indeed, if PDN or Fanny Craddock wish to split the thread and create a new thread on the Crusades, we can even discuss your reasons why the Crusade was or wasn't justified.

I don't have the authority to tell anyone what to believe, I do have the authority to say what I believe however.

As for Islam and Judaism, I believe both are grossly mistaken in respect to the Gospel, and in respect to Jesus Christ. I believe that Christianity is the universal truth about reality. However, that said, I do not endorse or support wholesale violence against any individual in our society. I believe our Gospel is about freedom from sin and slavery to righteousness.

Plebs

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not relativism. The First Crusade from what I have read was wholly immoral. I can't imagine Jesus endorsing it, indeed, I can't imagine any of the Apostles endorsing it either. The First Crusade is a typical result, of when power, greed, corruption, government, and religion mix themselves together.

Christian values are wholly and utterly in contradiction with the Crusades. The Gospel calls us to bring people to salvation, not to wholesale slaughter and indeed, some cases much more than wholesale slaughter in the name of Christianity.

It's a discussion forum, I'm just a little bit opinionated, we can discuss our point of view from a reasonable perspective. Indeed, if PDN or Fanny Craddock wish to split the thread and create a new thread on the Crusades, we can even discuss your reasons why the Crusade was or wasn't justified.

I don't have the authority to tell anyone what to believe, I do have the authority to say what I believe however.

As for Islam and Judaism, I believe both are grossly mistaken in respect to the Gospel, and in respect to Jesus Christ. I believe that Christianity is the universal truth about reality. However, that said, I do not endorse or support wholesale violence against any individual in our society. I believe our Gospel is about freedom from sin and slavery to righteousness.

A lot of what went on the Crusades was wrong. A lot of what is going on in Iraq is wrong. A lot of the wars waged by British monarchs was wrong. Thankfully good always wins out over evil and we have history to prevent us from falling into the same pitfalls again.

Fanny Cradock

Plebs wrote: »

I don't buy in to relativism, I don't like being told what I believe in and I don't compromise when it comes to faith. If you don't like that, perhaps you and your fellow moderators should reserve this zone for people of your liking.

Perhaps you should attempt to be a little less combative and a little more courteous when you address people.

Glenster

Let's not get caught up in the crusades. No one asks doctors to renounce the theory of the 5 humours.