Bio Dad suddenly seeking guardianship of daughter.

Daragh86

Hi all,

Sorry to jump into the middle of all this and change the subject somewhat - hope this is ok? I'm completely new to this forum and this subject.

Before I get into the whole situation I'll explain my situation as it stands. I am living with my girlfriend in a house we bought together almost a year ago now, we've been together almost 3 years. She has a daughter (nearly 5) from a previous relationship, she lives with us. Myself and my girlfriend work full time at the moment, we had to completely renovate the new house and still have a lot of upgrading to do although my girlfriend will be either working part time or not working at all shortly to be full time with her daughter.

Her daughter's father hasn't paid too much attention to his daughter up until we moved in to the new house together and all of a sudden he upped his game which is understandable. Before this he rarely handed up money for his daughter or spent much time with her (maybe, if lucky 3 or 4 hours a week). He has had a couple jobs on and off and even in the good times couldn't hold down a job. He is currently unemployed, claiming welfare and also working on the side so unfortunately he has more money than we do. He lives at home with his parents. He takes his daughter two nights a week, she doesn't have her own bedroom in his parents house - she sleeps on a blow up bed on his bedroom floor. When she is there he rarely is there, his parents mind her most of the time. All my girlfriend accepts from him now is half of her school costs which is very little with government grants for pre school now.

With all that background out of the way now I can get down to the problem. He has contacted my girlfriend in relation to signing a legal guardianship document which would make him joint guardian of his daughter, which in most cases I completely agree with.

There are so many reasons why we wouldn't want him to be joint guardian - all of the above and also we are planning to start a family shortly and in the case that something may happen to my girlfriend in the future he would have sole guardianship of her then and would remove her from what would be her family home with half brothers or sisters and a stable home. Coupled with him being an idiot, having no bed for her, no job, no home for her, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts of the situation or what might be the outcome of it all if it does end up going to court?

Sorry about the long post and hope I didn't bore anyone too much. Thanks for any help or advice in advance!

Nevyn

Daragh86 I've moved this to a thread of it's own rather then have it in the middle of the rights and awareness thread.

It could be the fact it looks like you will be having kids with your partner and maybe looking to adopt her daugther or being refused access if anything happens to her mother which has him looking for guardianship.

If he is commiting dole fraud then report him and let the system sort it out.

He is her Dad and while you may be acting as the man of the household and as a defacto parent and love her and want what is best for her, she is still should have the right to know her Dad and his family.

If her mother refuses to sign the guradianship papers then he can take her to court and chances are it will be granted.

Daragh86

Thaedydal wrote: »

Daragh86 I've moved this to a thread of it's own rather then have it in the middle of the rights and awareness thread.

Thank you.

Thaedydal wrote: »

He is her Dad and while you may be acting as the man of the household and as a defacto parent and love her and want what is best for her, she is still should have the right to know her Dad and his family.

I completely understand what your saying and I more than anyone insists that her dad is her dad and I'm definately not trying to take that place or stop that from happening. It would just be a shame for all involved if this was to happen, decision making would be a nightmare, he's a complete idiot. If things stayed the same as they are now without formal guardianship nobody would stop him from seeing her, that's definately not what it is about.

Anyhow I do see your point and in some ways agree, thanks for your advice.

Wantobe

Thaedyal is right. If you say no and he goes to court it is almost inevitable that he will be granted joint guardianship. So you would be much better off to consent with good grace. It would be much better for this little girl if both her parents and you got on well together.

Saying things like when she stays at his house, his parents mind her as he is never there is not helpful and is indicative of how you feel about him. I completely understand that you feel this way but if you could be the bigger person and try to develop a friendly relationship for the little girls sake that would be best for all.

Daragh86

Wantobe wrote: »

Thaedyal is right. If you say no and he goes to court it is almost inevitable that he will be granted joint guardianship. So you would be much better off to consent with good grace. It would be much better for this little girl if both her parents and you got on well together.

Saying things like when she stays at his house, his parents mind her as he is never there is not helpful and is indicative of how you feel about him. I completely understand that you feel this way but if you could be the bigger person and try to develop a friendly relationship for the little girls sake that would be best for all.

We have a friendly relationship and tend to look kindly on his idiotic actions letting them slip most of the time.

I understand how people feel about situations of single fathers and guardianship but in this case it really would not be for the better and for people to just suggest laying down and letting this girls life go downhill which is definately what will happen is disappointing.

Children do need both their mother and father and I'm not saying different, I agree completely. He has as much say about his daughter's life as any other father single or not but at the end of the day having completely 50/50 say is not going to work, it will only cause arguements.

Not all cases of potential joint guardianship are workable, honest and better for the child.

My apologies for being rude but I didn't come here to be told that having an absolute idiot having a 50% say on the upbringing of a 4 year old is better than a full time, hard working, caring mother having 65% of a say on the matter.

If anybody has any suggestions of how we might put a case together for him not to get joint guardianship of his daughter I'd appreciate it greatly.

Nevyn

If you are going to fight it then you are going to need to talk to a family lawyer.

I can understand that he's not a wonderful example of a parent or an adult and it's not fair that any child should have to deal with less then optimal parenting but sometimes life is just not ideal or fair and all you can do it minimise it and support them the best you can.

Wantobe

I'd say- genuinely- forget fighting this.

Joint guardianship is different to joint custody- and it is, in practical terms, the person with custody who makes most decisions.

But at the end of the day, he is her father and he is entitled to be involved in the decision making process of her upbringing.

ash23

I suggest you leave this to your partner and the childs father to sort out without getting overly involved.
You don't actually have any say-so in this matter so venting about him is futile.

Daragh86

Wantobe wrote: »

As someone with a good deal of experience in family law ( practicing solicitor) I'd say- genuinely- forget fighting this.

Joint guardianship is different to joint custody- and it is, in practical terms, the person with custody who makes most decisions.

But at the end of the day, he is her father and he is entitled to be involved in the decision making process of her upbringing.

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Thanks for all the help and advice all, I appreciate it.

ash23

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Thanks for all the help and advice all, I appreciate it.

From http://www.dad.ie/details.aspx?id=61

Guardianship rights allow you to make the major decisions in a child’s life – what religion she has, what school she goes to, where she lives, consenting to her medical treatment, adoption, allowing her to travel.

Basically if you both decide to change religion, or move abroad, or send her to boarding school etc he can contest this. If an agreement can't be reached it would go to court and a decision made for the child.

metrovelvet

ash23 wrote: »

From http://www.dad.ie/details.aspx?id=61



Basically if you both decide to change religion, or move abroad, or send her to boarding school etc he can contest this. If an agreement can't be reached it would go to court and a decision made for the child.

And he will get the child in the case of the mother's death unless he agrees to an alternative arrangement.

Since you are not married to your gilrfriend the law will see you as superflous in all this. As you are not a father, and not even a step father.

Cat Melodeon

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Guardianship is a separate issue to custody. What custody agreement is in place at the moment? Is it in writing? Does he violate it at will? If there is no formal custody arrangement in place, get one sorted so that all access issues are transparent.

Daragh86

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Guardianship is a separate issue to custody. What custody agreement is in place at the moment? Is it in writing? Does he violate it at will? If there is no formal custody arrangement in place, get one sorted so that all access issues are transparent.

There are no formal arrangements put in place in relation to maintenance, custody, etc. We have been very accomodating with his lack of a brain and so has his daughter, being let down by him constantly. It is far from ideal but we have tried to put everything in place we can to minimise the effect this has on the child - the most important part of all this.

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

In this situation nobody, especially me, is trying to take his daughter away from him, I in fact try my best to accomodate him but for him to seek joint guardianship for a child he has not actively shown an interest in or made an effort to do the right thing with is extremely frustrating, not just for me but more so for my girlfriend. She tries so hard to raise her daughter honestly and properly and this will all be for nothing if he gets joint guardianship. This isn't just an issue because of my presence, if I wasn't around my girlfriend would not want him having joint guardianship and he probably wouldn't be interested in her upbringing nevermind her guardianship - as I said previsouly he has only pulled his socks up since we moved into our house together, even at this he only takes her one day a week and most of that time she spends with his sister/mother/father.

I'm going to wrap this up now because it will only get out of hand and I think we've come to the conclusion that there is not much point in chasing this up in court but in ten years time when it matters we can always say we tried our best.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice.

ash23

Daragh86 wrote: »

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

My daughters dad has never met her. My daughters step dad acts the bollix. Having seen the damage the lack of contact with her biological father has done to her, I can assure you, my viewpoint is only pro-child. And no matter what a father is like, the child has the right to see them and the right to be legally tied to them.

In this situation nobody, especially me, is trying to take his daughter away from him, I in fact try my best to accomodate him but for him to seek joint guardianship for a child he has not actively shown an interest in or made an effort to do the right thing with is extremely frustrating, not just for me but more so for my girlfriend. She tries so hard to raise her daughter honestly and properly and this will all be for nothing if he gets joint guardianship.

Not true at all. Him having joint guardianship is a good thing. Unless you and your girlfriend try to do something drastic, joint guardianship will not have any impact on her daughters upbringing. You have stated that this man is making more of an effort as of late. He saw his daughter weekly, he now has her 2 nights a week and is looking for more responsibility towards her. This is a GOOD thing for the child. Some men just need time. And to be honest, the way you speak about him on this thread is offensive. No matter what, this man is that childs father and she will love him for that reason alone. And having you put him down is not right. You have been very insulting while referring to him. Beware that the child doesn't pick up on this attitude as I would imagine she will not appreciate it.

This isn't just an issue because of my presence, if I wasn't around my girlfriend would not want him having joint guardianship and he probably wouldn't be interested in her upbringing nevermind her guardianship - as I said previsouly he has only pulled his socks up since we moved into our house together, even at this he only takes her one day a week and most of that time she spends with his sister/mother/father.

Thats not her decision to make. She made choices and she got pregnant by this man and the result of that is that she is stuck with him now in terms of parenting with him.
She hasn't a hope of him not getting guardianship imo. Most men are granted it if it goes to court. By fighting it she will be creating bad feeling and the only person who will be affected by that is the child.

I would think that the pair of you should try and see him wanting to be involved as a good thing rather than a bad thing. Encourage it rather than fighting it. And stop talking dissing the childs father. If you can't say anything nice then say nothing.

Just to add

My apologies for being rude but I didn't come here to be told that having an absolute idiot having a 50% say on the upbringing of a 4 year old is better than a full time, hard working, caring mother having 65% of a say on the matter.

At the moment, the way things stand, he has 0% of a say. And you have 0% of a say. And the mother has 100%. There is no way of splitting it other than 50/50. Just the way it is.

PS are you planning on marrying her before you have children? If not will you be so eager for her to have 100% say if she refuses joint guardianship with you because she decides you are an idiot down the line?

Khannie

ash23 wrote: »

I suggest you leave this to your partner and the childs father to sort out without getting overly involved.
You don't actually have any say-so in this matter so venting about him is futile.

He has committed himself to a relationship with both the mother and the child. He obviously cares very much for the welfare of that child. Any decision between the mother and father will impact him directly. Why should he have no say in it? It sounds like he's more of a father than her biological one.

ash23 wrote: »

And to be honest, the way you speak about him on this thread is offensive. No matter what, this man is that childs father and she will love him for that reason alone. And having you put him down is not right. You have been very insulting while referring to him. Beware that the child doesn't pick up on this attitude as I would imagine she will not appreciate it.

What if the guy's a total asshat? He shouldn't be berated for it? I don't get what the problem with calling a poor father a poor father is.

ash23

Khannie wrote: »

He has committed himself to a relationship with both the mother and the child. He obviously cares very much for the welfare of that child. Any decision between the mother and father will impact him directly. Why should he have no say in it? It sounds like he's more of a father than her biological one.

He can have an input (as far as the mother is concerned) but the ultimate issue is between the mother and father and nothing to do with him.

The child has two parents and it's up to them to decide what way the child is raised. This man wants the father having no say in how the child is raised. Why should he have a say if the biological father doesn't? Makes no sense.

Maybe the father is a total asshat. But he is the childs father. And as any separated parent knows, one of the main things is to bite your tongue and not speak ill of the other parent.

Difficult to do but they basically want to go to court and say the bio father is useless. He will probably be granted guardianship and when the child grows up, her biological father will have ammo, that her mother and step father tried to stop him from having a say in her life.

Khannie

ash23 wrote: »

He can have an input (as far as the mother is concerned) but the ultimate issue is between the mother and father and nothing to do with him.

Well....I take your point, but I think the level of input that he gets should be high since it will directly affect him.

ash23 wrote: »

The child has two parents

See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.

ash23 wrote: »

Why should he have a say if the biological father doesn't? Makes no sense.

I'm not saying that he should / that the bio dad shouldn't. I don't know enough about the situation tbh. We're only hearing one side here after all.

Wantobe

Daragh86 wrote: »

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

That's one of the drawbacks of a public internet forum- you don't always hear what you want to hear.

You initially asked advice about fighting an application for guardianship- you've been advised that it is probably futile and that in doing so you may be jeopardising any chance of friendly relations with this little girl's father. That's good advice, whether you choose to take it is up to you.

Cavehill Red

Just want to object to the term 'bio dad' which has been used by the OP and others in this thread.
There is no mention of adoption in this case.
The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.
The OP is not the father. He is at best stepfather. And he needs to leave matters of parenting up to the actual parents in this case.
Reading between the lines (snide comments about the father 'lacking a brain' and so on), the OP could be as much of a problem in this situation as anything else.

The Corinthian

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give?

Not a lot. I believe the legal origin of guardianship was in the case of a child becoming the ward of a relative or someone else in the event of the parents' deaths, so is not exactly designed for modern scenarios.

Another important point is that even with guardianship, this does not mean he'll keep it. Guardianship obtained through the courts or agreement can be lost if the father is shown to have shirked his responsibilities.

What it affords, in theory, is the following:

1. It gives the guardian a legal say over the religious and educational upbringing of the child.
2. The consent of all guardians is required for an adoption.
3. The permission of all guardians is required to take the child outside of the state. This naturally can be overruled in court, especially if there is little or no contact between the child and non-custodial guardian.
4. The non-custodial guardian will inherit custody of the child upon the death or incapacitation of the custodial parent.

Could the bio-father cause trouble for the sake of it with guardianship? Yes, but it's limited as to what he could do. He could refuse to give permission to let you bring the child on holiday, for example, but if a court saw that he was just acting the mick, they'd not only find against him but block his right to object legally again (this is already something that happens with custodial parents who repeatedly bring the non-custodial parent to court for maintenance for no good reason).

Where it comes to the religious and educational upbringing of the child, in practice, these rights are either unenforceable or unenforced and courts will generally side with the custodial parent. Possibly he could if the custodial parent join a cult or decided to 'home-school' the child, but even then I'd have my doubts.

Overall, all of these would be, at worst, temporary forms of harassment that would go down on his file and before long he would be unable to exercise any of them.

Adoption and custody upon the death or incapacitation of the custodial parent are the only two rights left. TBH, if the guy is a complete disaster, as you've made him out to be, he is unlikely to seek custody in the event of the latter. It would make little sense unless it were to qualify as a lone parent under social welfare, and TBH if you think that's a valid reason then you could say that of any lone parent on social welfare - so best we don't go there.

From what you're describing, your main objection to him is that he's an "idiot". I appreciate this, but if we judged who was fit to have (custody of) a child on their IQ or social competence, a good portion of the parents out there, single and otherwise, would not have custody.

I also appreciate that you would not want your future children to be deprived of their half-sister, but ultimately she's not your daughter, she's his.

Had you considered speaking with him about this? To explain your concerns about future siblings? If he had considered the scenario whereby he gets custody and if he would really be capable of this?

It's quite likely, with your girlfriend and you moving in together, planning a family and all the rest, that he's concerned that you may end up adopting his daughter, thus airbrushing him out of her life forever. That he recently 'upped his ante' in connection to you moving in together seems to point at this for me.

All that guardianship may mean to him is a means to block this very real eventuality - and I'm saying this because you've already thought about custody in the event of your girlfriend's death - and that beyond this he has no other intentions, ulterior or otherwise.

ash23 wrote: »

And as any separated parent knows, one of the main things is to bite your tongue and not speak ill of the other parent.

If only that was the case in practice.

Khannie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.

I get called dad and have done for nigh on 8 years now. While I'm in the middle of the adoption process, I don't think it's a pre-requisite for the use of the word dad (certainly wasn't in my case). Maybe it is required in the legal sense, but I don't live in a legal world really.

I think "bio dad" is just being used as a term to differentiate. You have no idea how involved the OP is in the childs life. Maybe she does call him dad.

Cavehill Red

Khannie wrote: »

I get called dad and have done for nigh on 8 years now. While I'm in the middle of the adoption process, I don't think it's a pre-requisite for the use of the word dad (certainly wasn't in my case). Maybe it is required in the legal sense, but I don't live in a legal world really.

I think "bio dad" is just being used as a term to differentiate. You have no idea how involved the OP is in the childs life. Maybe she does call him dad.

If you want to differentiate between the child's father and the man living with the child's mother, father and stepfather work just fine.
Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.
Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

metrovelvet

Khannie wrote: »

Well....I take your point, but I think the level of input that he gets should be high since it will directly affect him.



See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.



I'm not saying that he should / that the bio dad shouldn't. I don't know enough about the situation tbh. We're only hearing one side here after all.

People are always going to dispute the blood bond. Blood is thicker than water and all that. But then love can be thicker than blood.

I think in this case the father, even if he is a noob, is still a presence and that cant be discounted.

Khannie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.

I disagree. I think you're reading too much into it. Just my 2c. I used the term and meant no harm by it.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

It is only recent. I'd been called dad for many years before we even started it.

metrovelvet wrote: »

even if he is a noob

metrovelvet

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If you want to differentiate between the child's father and the man living with the child's mother, father and stepfather work just fine.
Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.
Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

I don't know why you are getting so touchy about the lingo. In blended families, there are bio moms, step moms, bio dads and step dads, same with siblings.

Cavehill Red

Khannie wrote: »

I disagree. I think you're reading too much into it. Just my 2c. I used the term and meant no harm by it.

I've an elderly relative refers affectionately to 'darkies'. I'm not sure black people would be impressed. Your intention to cause harm or not is irrelevant to whether it does cause offence. It does.

Khannie wrote: »

It is only recent. I'd been called dad for many years before we even started it.

By the child. And that's sweet. As you said, you don't consider legality overly and that's fair enough. But legally, you're not dad. You're stepdad until you adopt the child.
I'm not responding to Metrovelvet's trolling, as this is not the first thread they have come on to post offensively about fathers.

ash23

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Just want to object to the term 'bio dad' which has been used by the OP and others in this thread.
There is no mention of adoption in this case.
The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.
The OP is not the father. He is at best stepfather. And he needs to leave matters of parenting up to the actual parents in this case.
Reading between the lines (snide comments about the father 'lacking a brain' and so on), the OP could be as much of a problem in this situation as anything else.

Apologies for that. it's a habit I picked up myself. I refer to my daughters dad as her bio dad as I haven't seen him since I told him I was pregnant. I raised her with my (now ex) partner and call him step dad. Not really an apt description in this case as the father is involved.

Khannie wrote:

See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.

I disagree. I think that primarily a child has 2 parents and while other people can be involved/heavily involved, the child has 2 parents. End of.
My daughter has me, her father (who she has never met) and her step father (who raised her, who she calls dad, who she still sees). However since we live apart her step father no longer has responsibilities towards her. He sees her but he doesn't play the father role. And therefore the decisions are all mine.
The OP wouldn't want to pay maintenance, have strict access and have the "downside" of parenting this child if they split up. He may still want to see her but he would not want to parent her.

Cavehill Red

Children can have loads of caregivers. Parents, stepparents, grandparents, blood relatives, relatives by marriage or other relationships, all sorts.
I'd consider my child to have four or five 'parent-type' relationships.
But only two are designated father and mother, and they are the genetic parents unless one or other or both has given up that responsibility via permitting the adoption of the child (and parental responsibility) by someone else.

Khannie

ash23 wrote: »

He may still want to see her but he would not want to parent her.

You have no idea what he would or would not want to be fair.

Khannie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not responding to Metrovelvet's trolling, as this is not the first thread they have come on to post offensively about fathers.

Yes you are. If you have a problem with a post, please report it.

Cavehill Red

Khannie wrote: »

Yes you are. If you have a problem with a post, please report it.

I prefer to ignore them, thanks.