Dole recipients Will have to work 19.5 hours

RichardAnd

feelingstressed wrote: »

If I was temporary staff working for the county council I'd be extremely worried about my job about now.

Or working in a creche which is pretty much a minimum wage job and a demanding one.
Creche owners have a source of free labour here if the new staff have the qualifications

This is my big concern about this idea. It's like the FAS WPP, it gives someone the option of getting free staff courtesy of the state which keeps someone out of work. Other countries have laws about unpaid work, yet we seem to facilitate it.

However, it's early days so I won't judge this until I see a little more.

flutered

Long Term Louth wrote: »

People can volunteer through the existing CE schemes.

there is no vacencys on ce schemes they are all full

WhodahWoodah

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

Long Term Louth

flutered wrote: »

there is no vacencys on ce schemes they are all full

I dont think so see FAS website.

goat2

hopefully the first candidates will bethe ones drawing this money the longest, say five ten yrs, as there was work for all up to 2 yrs ago, and see how they will try to squirm their way out of having to get up for work for a changespongers

Long Term Louth

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

I am unemployed and would have no problem offering my services to such a scheme.

AlekSmart

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTÉ News View Post:

The Government has confirmed that it is to introduce new measures which could see some dole claimants work in the community in return for their benefits.
The proposals could be introduced as early as next month, recipients could be denied dole if they refuse to work.
The aim of the changes is to give opportunities to people who are out of work to maintain and develop their existing skills.
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It is also expected that the changes will reduce welfare fraud by people who are not genuinely unemployed and force them out of the black economy.
As a result, it is hoped that the measures can be implemented on a cost neutral basis, with any extra cost being offset by savings resulting from people who are not genuinely unemployed ceasing to claim because of the new requirements.
It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities.
The proposals would see participants work 19.5 hours a week and receive around €210 in return.
Unlike applicants for job seekers benefit they will not be means tested and they can work part-time outside of the scheme as well.
But if claimants do not turn up for the hours they are expected to work under the scheme, their dole will be stopped.

The changes are being implemented as part of the expansion and development of the Community Services Programme and the Rural Social Scheme.
It is expected that the changes will involve up to 10,000 new participants this year, rising to 40,000 over the course of two years.

Yet again,the timing and method of this announcement can be taken to reflect just how serious a measure it really is.

Dáil Eireann on holidays.

No senior Minister or Civil Servant on hand to handle the Media announcement (Eamonn O Cúiv in suitably vacation like apparel does not count).

But probably the most important aspect is the use of words.....the "somes",the "coulds" and at the very end the little bit about voluntary schemes and a relatively small numbers envisaged to take part in this scheme.

The intent is probably good but this measure still illustrates the vast gap of comprehension which exists between Government and Reality in modern Ireland.

flutered

when one workes one is in insurable employment, whe one is in recipt of social welfare one cannot be in insureable employment, also how many public servants will it take to oversee this scheme, who will be in charge of each particular unit, who will give the instructions, a local buisness person cannot tell someone on a ce scheme what to do, who will decide if a perticular person is doing enough, if i am shanghaied onto this lark and some day it is getting on my tits and i give whoever is in charge the finger and tell them go swivel what happens, if i get into a mad rage and start wrecking the joint what happens, if i get injured what happens.

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

Excellent

A lot of people are about to get a taste of real "socialism" , nothing like having a faceless government bureaucrat ordering you to work at the job selected by them

I propose in my first 5 year plant to direct the workers towards:

• Cleaning rivers and canals
• Digging holes in mountains and using them for hydro-storage
• Filling in potholes
• Toiling in the fields

Join me comrades in our bright new future :pac:

Under socialism all that type of work would be done by people who were promenent members in the PDs, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Libertas and IBEC. Mary Harney would be sent to work sweeping the streets while McDowell and Frank Fahey would shine the boots of workers.

flutered

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I dont think so see FAS website.

in my neck of the woods there is none, a lot of the jobs on that website are a figment of some ones imagination, ask around and you will find out.

MrDarcy

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Community service has traditionally been a punishment doled out by the courts to people convicted of offences. This scheme smacks a bit of punishing poor sods who have been guilty of nothing but being misfortunate enough to have lost their jobs and sending them outside to work clearing rubbish etc side by side with the country's convicted criminals. I doubt there are exactly thousands with childminding or carer qualifications so most will I'm sure end up doing the crap jobs that went under the remit of community service in the first place because nobody else wants to do them. Are there any unemployed people on this forum? I'd be interested to hear what they think???

Spot on. It's like everything else in this Godforsaken f*cking kip. Any chance we could maybe deal with the core problem which is unemployment??? Not a sausage... Let's not even go for solving the core oproblem here, any chance we could maybe even just try to understand the problem a little better before we try to go at it in a logical and rational way???

Nope, this is Ireland, we can't do that over here...

What'll we do then??? Our wisest and brightest in government will always come up with some plan that tries to make the core problem, which has not gone away, actually look like something else, so the optics of the problem appear to be completely different, while the core problem stays there.

Long Term Louth

flutered wrote: »

in my neck of the woods there is none, a lot of the jobs on that website are a figment of some ones imagination, ask around and you will find out.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods but there are some, I have inquired.

D-Generate

Would it not be beneficial for someone working a 40 hour week on minimum wage to sign on and work the 19.5 hours plus work their previous job part time for 19.5 hours. Seems to me that there would be a monetary gain plus medical card and other benefits.
It is a positive step as I know that if I was unfortunate enough to be unemployed I would be seriously worried of losing my mind from not being productive, however it could lead to abuse as per above. Perhaps have it only available to those unemployed 6 months or longer? Stops someone doing an immediate switch to reap the rewards.

katkin

O'Cuiv just came from Dept of Gaeltacht, and Rural Affairs. Unfortunately there is ****all money to give to these groups, FF don't want to isolate these communities, so O'Cuiv gives them this sop.

What a load of bull****. Tourism, creches, older people - our young people and older people aren't worth actually providing proper services for, this will fill the gap then. Tourism - hmm hotels, tourist offices, tourist sites - here's some free workers for ye.

I completely agree with whoever said there earlier that it better be the people on the dole for the last ten years that get put on this first because O'Cuiv and buddies can go **** themselves if they think I'm subsidising some half arsed community bull**** after they ****ed this country up!:mad:

wiseguy

McDougal wrote: »

Under socialism all that type of work would be done by people who were promenent members in the PDs, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Libertas and IBEC. Mary Harney would be sent to work sweeping the streets while McDowell and Frank Fahey would shine the boots of workers.

What no Labour members allowed to be sent to the Gulag

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

What no Labour members allowed to be sent to the Gulag

I'm sure we could find room on the collective farm for Ruairi Quinn

Jessibelle

As a recently unemployed person, I would jump at the chance to do this, but I'd like to think that if implemented, it would be in an area somewhat related to previous employment or in an area of interest to the individual, for example. I wouldn't be much use initially for physical labour, although I'd assume I'd strenghten up over time, but I am good for computer based/science based/community and people based tasks. The only problem I can see with the scheme though is that for the likes of community based projects involving older people and young children, Garda vetting is required, as well as specific training, the time and money involved to get them both may drive costs to the Exchequer up rather than down.

MrDarcy

This concept sounds dangerously close to the poor law union workhouses of the 18th and 19th century, you can imagine the social stigma that will be attached to people taking up these placements or whatever they actually are, to call them positions would imply that they are jobs which they very clearly are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Law_Union

wiseguy

katkin wrote: »

O'Cuiv just came from Dept of Gaeltacht, and Rural Affairs. Unfortunately there is ****all money to give to these groups, FF don't want to isolate these communities, so O'Cuiv gives them this sop.

What a load of bull****. Tourism, creches, older people - our young people and older people aren't worth actually providing proper services for, this will fill the gap then. Tourism - hmm hotels, tourist offices, tourist sites - here's some free workers for ye.

I completely agree with whoever said there earlier that it better be the people on the dole for the last ten years that get put on this first because O'Cuiv and buddies can go **** themselves if they think I'm subsidising some half arsed community bull**** after they ****ed this country up!:mad:

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy

katkin

Jessibelle wrote: »

As a recently unemployed person, I would jump at the chance to do this, but I'd like to think that if implemented, it would be in an area somewhat related to previous employment or in an area of interest to the individual, for example. I wouldn't be much use initially for physical labour, although I'd assume I'd strenghten up over time, but I am good for computer based/science based/community and people based tasks. The only problem I can see with the scheme though is that for the likes of community based projects involving older people and young children, Garda vetting is required, as well as specific training, the time and money involved to get them both may drive costs to the Exchequer up rather than down.

You want to work for a dole payment in an area you were previously employed in? Say goodbye then to any chance of ever getting employed in that area again if people will do it for dole. Makes no economic sense at all.

flutered

is it possible that this is just another dff (dispicable finna failure) smoke and mirrors to take some of the heat off ivor the canivour and company.

MrDarcy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDdrGaCSNLM

Jessibelle

katkin wrote: »

You want to work for a dole payment in an area you were previously employed in? Say goodbye then to any chance of ever getting employed in that area again if people will do it for dole. Makes no economic sense at all.

No, I'd want it to be in an area vaguely related to what I am qualified in. I have science based qualifications, so maybe I could tutor in science subjects outside of hours in schools, or help with computer skills development or similar. If I was put to a job repairing walls, I'd be more of a hindrance than someone who worked in construction taking the position as I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. I don't think the scheme should be taking jobs away from those employed, but nor do I think it should be placing people in areas they are ill qualified for.

McDougal

Instead of this working for dole crap why doesn't the state just hire unemployed people and give them meaningful jobs to do. It makes no sense to be firing public workers and then making them work for the dole doing useless nonsense.

MrDarcy

http://www.notechmagazine.com/2009/05/prison-treadmills.html

Maybe it's part of a wider Green Party initiative to get us up on prison threadmills and generating some Green electricity for the state...

Isnt it great that FF are bringing back the Workhouses, this will not reduce the welfare bill by 1 cent but add millions to it.



SCUM FF.

I look forward to the coming revolt.

davidschoolbag

Blackjack wrote: »

Fantastic idea - about time something like this was brought in.

Is it not already there in Community Employment Schemes? Same hours same terms... but less compulsion, if the extended the numbers on Comunity Employment surely they would have the same result only better.

Also who is it they are goign to work for the Goverment.. thought they wernt recruiting?????

WhodahWoodah

Why on earth would an Irish business owner create a new job and pay an extra worker a full time wage if he could get his hands on two dole workers for free? In fact, why would he continue to employ his existing workforce if he could maybe swop them out for dole workers? I don't know how good for employment this would be. Stuff like increased Enterprise Incubation schemes etc would be better. There are many experienced and skilled business people who are unemployed but extremely qualified to act as mentors. Help the unemployed to start their own businesses, employ one another and reduce the numbers unemployed as well as creating new exchequer revenue. I know there's a small amount of this in place already, but IMO this is what it should be all about. The Irish have always had a good entrepreneurial spirit and if we dared to foster that then who knows what might happen! The next Richard Branson or Sir Alan could be on the dole right now!

Chaotic_Forces

I don't really see the advantage at all with this, apart from free employment.

I mean i'm on the dole myself but ffs at least give us something useful to do. There's a reason people don't like the work placement programmes; they're free labour. Working 19.5 hours a week for the 210 is good; if it's work. If it's just something like sweeping the streets I can't really say "I didn't do good in the leaving cert, but when I was on the dole I got a job sweeping the streets so I think I'd be great working as an office admin".

As for the CE schemes, you need to be a certain age. So forget those for the younger folks.

I honestly don't see the point in this at all TBH. So we get to feel useful... doing what exactly? We can feel useful going to FÁS for a course can't we?

All this is going to do is have people being too sick to work or else claiming every excuse as to why they can't work/can't work on certain days.

I know people are thinking it'll catch the scammers out but... my money is on this scheme being in set hours, all the dole frauds do is ask for part time and they're fine.

yermanoffthetv

I think this is the stupid idea Ive ever had the misfortune of reading. It shows the government has zero understanding of economics. This will actually make it harder for people to find work. Think about it, the government is removing demand for labour by essentially making it "free". Say your a teacher and you chip in your 20hrs a week helping out at a local school, you think that school is going to hire more staff if they can get it for free? In fact why keep the staff youve got? fire your "handsomely paid" workforce and get some dolers in for nothing!

"this will to be great success!" sarcasm/

Maybe they should do what was needed to be done years ago and reform the payment system based on hours worked not days! This is where the bloody problem is. People wont work extra days because theyll face a cut in benifits. If it was a tiered system based on hours it would be in someones best interest to work MORE :rolleyes: In addition make PRSI contributions deductable for 1 year for new staff taken on(conditions attached, obviously) They seem to be doing everything except what needs to be done in case the public sector employees might have to do more work...and probably strike because of it!