Dole recipients Will have to work 19.5 hours

wiseguy

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

Why on earth would an Irish business owner create a new job and pay an extra worker a full time wage if he could get his hands on two dole workers for free? In fact, why would he continue to employ his existing workforce if he could maybe swop them out for dole workers? I don't know how good for employment this would be. Stuff like increased Enterprise Incubation schemes etc would be better. There are many experienced and skilled business people who are unemployed but extremely qualified to act as mentors. Help the unemployed to start their own businesses, employ one another and reduce the numbers unemployed as well as creating new exchequer revenue. I know there's a small amount of this in place already, but IMO this is what it should be all about. The Irish have always had a good entrepreneurial spirit and if we dared to foster that then who knows what might happen! The next Richard Branson or Sir Alan could be on the dole right now!

Why would anyone in their right mind want to open a business in this country?
Only for your hard earned money to be taken away from you and wasted by a reckless government.
There is no respect for entrepreneurs in this country, unless you are a builder "entrepreneur" that is :rolleyes:
So why bother.

WhodahWoodah

That's why I said we need to foster the entrepreneurial spirit. I'm aware this would be a departure from the current system. That was my point. We need to promote capitalism not communism here! I would suggest that businesses in the incubation system would get reduced taxes etc, lots of mentoring and hey here's an idea-let them set up shop in some of the Nama white elephants and then we might even see something good come out of Nama. That said, even rent out the Nama buildings cheaply to existing struggling businesses and give them a dig out! Do an automatic employment grant of €10k for creating a new job, no matter what type of business you have or whether you export-that's only only a year's dole. Less if you count in stuff like rent allowance and medical cards. There's tons of far more constructive things they could be doing. Promote cooperative business groups like the Dunhill Eco Park thing.

But sure I suppose at least we'll have shiny clean streets. Sigh.

Sand

I think this is the stupid idea Ive ever had the misfortune of reading. It shows the government has zero understanding of economics. This will actually make it harder for people to find work. Think about it, the government is removing demand for labour by essentially making it "free". Say your a teacher and you chip in your 20hrs a week helping out at a local school, you think that school is going to hire more staff if they can get it for free? In fact why keep the staff youve got? fire your "handsomely paid" workforce and get some dolers in for nothing!

+1

Its one of the stupidest, playing to the crowd policies I have ever heard of. It will only squeeze out employment at or near the minimum wage.

The dole is there to be a safety net, not as an alternative career.

Chinasea

promises promises

The UK are whipping the duvets offa the Vicki Pollards, the Waynes and the luvely Waynettas. As usual Ireland is looking on and is pretending that it might do something about the Irish couisants. I doubt it will ever happen - totally should though and I speak as redundanite desperdo in search of a job.

WhodahWoodah

Oh dear Chinasea-do you think everyone on he dole is a Vicky Pollard? I know there's a certain element of that around in the terminal dolers, but I'd like to think that the vast vast vast majority of people on the dole aren't happy about it already and streetsweeping is all they need.

On a related note, who does the governmen plan to have pay for the 19.5 hours a week childcare that many would need now having taken kids out of creches or gotten rid of the childminder (another dole casualty) when they lost their job? Apparently the average cost of childcare is about €800 per month so you're probably looking at an average of €400 for the 19.5 hours. Who's going to pay for their petrol or travel to get to work each time? Who's going to buy their lunch? The dole is only enough for sustenance really, so if someone incurred costs as a result of being sent to do some stupid job that also keeps someone else unemployed then they now won't have enough for sustenance. The silly government really haven't thought this one through to the end.

Also does this mean all the existing paid streetsweepers are going to lose their jobs?

flutered

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

That's why I said we need to foster the entrepreneurial spirit. I'm aware this would be a departure from the current system. That was my point. We need to promote capitalism not communism here! I would suggest that businesses in the incubation system would get reduced taxes etc, lots of mentoring and hey here's an idea-let them set up shop in some of the Nama white elephants and then we might even see something good come out of Nama. That said, even rent out the Nama buildings cheaply to existing struggling businesses and give them a dig out! Do an automatic employment grant of €10k for creating a new job, no matter what type of business you have or whether you export-that's only only a year's dole. Less if you count in stuff like rent allowance and medical cards. There's tons of far more constructive things they could be doing. Promote cooperative business groups like the Dunhill Eco Park thing.
But sure I suppose at least we'll have shiny clean streets. Sigh.

but that may work, the problem is there does not seem to be any need for brown envelopes.

WhodahWoodah

Lol flutered we'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it!

crouchingtiger

D-Generate wrote: »

Would it not be beneficial for someone working a 40 hour week on minimum wage to sign on and work the 19.5 hours plus work their previous job part time for 19.5 hours. Seems to me that there would be a monetary gain plus medical card and other benefits.
It is a positive step as I know that if I was unfortunate enough to be unemployed I would be seriously worried of losing my mind from not being productive, however it could lead to abuse as per above. Perhaps have it only available to those unemployed 6 months or longer? Stops someone doing an immediate switch to reap the rewards.

It certainly doesnt take a degree in economics to figure out that this vote spinner is essentially a load of bull****.

No unemployed adult will ever want to work for the minimum wage ever again.

mrsdewinter

TheReverend wrote: »

It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities.

It's a good idea on paper but what about health & safety/children's welfare/Garda reference issues re creches and after-school services? Re the services for older people, does this mean that the live-in carer will find their payments cut because some 21-year-old randomer with no experience of handling older people will be foisted on their father/mother?
It just sounds like a concept that will fall apart in the execution...

McDougal

crouchingtiger wrote: »

It certainly doesnt take a degree in economics to figure out that this vote spinner is essentially a load of bull****.

No unemployed adult will ever want to work for the minimum wage ever again.

No adult should be on minimum wage anyway. The minimum wage is for spotty teenagers not people trying to raise a family or buy a house.

deelite

I've just scanned through most of the posts here but I may have missed out on one or two - I'd have no problem working for "dole" but what about those people on temporary (yellow) casual dockets - this would not work for them.

Secondly I could be mistaken here but if I offered my services freely to lets say the local social welfare office to answer the phones (as they're never answered) or to say open another hatch on signing on day - I would guess my offer would not be appreciated by the unions or staff.

I recall when some people (I can't find the article) offered to work in the passport office for free to help with the back log - that offer was rejected. Also some unemployed people offered to work in the polling offices a while back - but as far as I can recall this was not taken up.

McDougal

deelite wrote: »

Secondly I could be mistaken here but if I offered my services freely to lets say the local social welfare office to answer the phones (as they're never answered) or to say open another hatch on signing on day - I would guess my offer would not be appreciated by the unions or staff.

If people are prepared to do that job for free then why would anyone get paid to do it?

crouchingtiger

McDougal wrote: »

No adult should be on minimum wage anyway. The minimum wage is for spotty teenagers not people trying to raise a family or buy a house.

Aforementioned "spotty teenagers", in many cases will not qualify for minimum wage.

If you are an ill-experienced, unskilled and unqualified adult, you should be earning the minimum wage because of your low economic value.

Just because one has children and a mortgage, doesn't entitle you to an attractive wage.

WhodahWoodah

I think we should start a collection immediately for a full set of Economics books for each and every member of our government. Secondary now, not university, we have to walk before we run!!! Wonder how they'd all score if they were given the economics Leaving Cert exam tomorrow???

McDougal

crouchingtiger wrote: »

If you are an ill-experienced, unskilled and unqualified adult, you should be earning the minimum wage because of your low economic value.

And I suppose bankers, politicians, developers and speculators are all of high economic value according to you?

deelite

McDougal wrote: »

If people are prepared to do that job for free then why would anyone get paid to do it?

I'm working on the assumption that as the phones are never answered in the social welfare office - that maybe because they aren't paying somebody to do that job.

And secondly the queue in the office on signing on days is about an hour and a half long (only one hatch open) - so imo the office realistically could take somebody from the dole to work on those days.

McDougal

deelite wrote: »

I'm working on the assumption that as the phones are never answered in the social welfare office - that maybe because they aren't paying somebody to do that job.

And secondly the queue in the office on signing on days is about an hour and a half long (only one hatch open) - so imo the office realistically could take somebody from the dole to work on those days.

I'm all for hiring more staff but they should be paid the same as the other workers. The same pay for the same work.

crouchingtiger

McDougal wrote: »

And I suppose bankers, politicians, developers and speculators are all of high economic value according to you?

Yes each and every one is devil spawn just as all dole recipients are poor unfortunates, members of the proletariat, victims in the face of dog capitalism.

GET REAL!

Sir Graball

Has to be one of the worst ideas yet this shower has found in a lucky bag!! There is so much wrong with this in terms of personal choice and human rights despite the obvious issues ( and cost) of health and safety training, skills training, cost of travel, induction training, Garda vetting blah blah.
This is not even populist it's just wrong as was Anglo, E voting, Decentralisation etc etc. Might get a few volunteers to run the country they'd be a lot better than this shower of wasters Joe!!!!

Cat Melodeon

"It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities".

I was employed as an SNA, made redundant in the first round of Special Needs cuts 2 years ago. A further 2,000 SNAs have lost their jobs in the past 18 months. Now it would seem they are re-hiring us for even less than we were paid before (starting salary of €19K p.a.) to do the exact same job as before. What a pile of manure.

McDougal

crouchingtiger wrote: »

Yes each and every one is devil spawn just as all dole recipients are poor unfortunates, members of the proletariat, victims in the face of dog capitalism.

GET REAL!

You're the expert on the economic value of workers. I'm just asking why the economic value of bankers is higher than a cleaner or bus driver. If anything the bankers should be on a negative salary.

McDougal

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

"It is envisaged that the new participants will be involved in areas like after school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities".

I was employed as an SNA, made redundant in the first round of Special Needs cuts 2 years ago. A further 2,000 SNAs have lost their jobs in the past 18 months. Now it would seem they are re-hiring us for even less than we were paid before (starting salary of €19K p.a.) to do the exact same job as before. What a pile of manure.

Sounds a bit like Cameron's "big society", which is essentially firing public workers and replacing them with unpaid volunteers. Instead of volunteers though we will have the unemployed working where the state commands them to in exchange for what they already get.

deelite

McDougal wrote: »

I'm all for hiring more staff but they should be paid the same as the other workers. The same pay for the same work.

Totally agree with you they should be paid the same - they could take people directly from the dole to fill certain vacancies within government run departments be it temporary full-time or part-time - that could work. You have to register with FAS to be able to sign on the dole so they would be able to directly check for suitable candidates - but they might be too "joined up thinking"....:D

yermanoffthetv

deelite wrote: »

they could take people directly from the dole to fill certain vacancies within government run departments be it temporary full-time or part-time

There seems to be vacancies in leadership positions across all government departments at the moment, so it might work

jos22

my quess is that 18 -30 years old are the one that are gonna be targeted. under this scheme. the lazy sods who go from dole to state pension will be largely unaffected. best part of the scheme is that they pay you more to spend time not looking for work. great solution to the unemployment problem. next scheme the gov will come up with is paying college grads to leave the country just give grads there dole for year and 1 way ticket out of the country.

revie

What about Health & Safety, Insurance, Travel Expences!
Would you be expected to pay your fare out of your dole?
Who'd be liable if you have an accident?
Traning would have to be provided.
People with a criminal record would have to be excluded.
Theirs a lot of issues to be sorted out before this could go ahead!

drunkmonkey

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

That's why I said we need to foster the entrepreneurial spirit. I'm aware this would be a departure from the current system. That was my point. We need to promote capitalism not communism here! I would suggest that businesses in the incubation system would get reduced taxes etc, lots of mentoring and hey here's an idea-let them set up shop in some of the Nama white elephants and then we might even see something good come out of Nama. That said, even rent out the Nama buildings cheaply to existing struggling businesses and give them a dig out! Do an automatic employment grant of €10k for creating a new job, no matter what type of business you have or whether you export-that's only only a year's dole. Less if you count in stuff like rent allowance and medical cards. There's tons of far more constructive things they could be doing. Promote cooperative business groups like the Dunhill Eco Park thing.

But sure I suppose at least we'll have shiny clean streets. Sigh.

There are a lot of schemes and bodys already in place to help starting business. If you have an idea go make it happen don't wait around for someone to do it for you.
As for giving 10k for taking on an employee it's a crazy suggestion, why should one business get 10k for taking on someone while it's competitor who is not in a position to get nothing. It's completely unfair.

Nijmegen

As usual, it sounds like an interesting idea of a scheme, but not one we could wear coming from the current shower of eejits; and anyway, it sounds like it could be a paper tiger.

I think the idea of sending out our unemployed to help fix some of the country up - for example, there's been voluntary groups labouring for years to make the Royal Canal a usable recreation spot; or groups working with kids afterschool; etc etc) - would be a good idea.

How and ever, the idea of replacing workers with the unemployed is a no-go. These must be jobs, like the terms and conditions for the FAS WPP scheme, that are in areas where there have been no redundances in the past XX months and so forth.

If they had a real works programme it would be a great idea. As it is, I would rather find my own voluntary work than do something mandated by that shower, if I was on the dole.

They have no moral authority to issue such instructions to the citizens.

Tazz T

I actually don't think this is a bad idea, as long as the 'dolers' are not taking real jobs that would otherwise be offered to the unemployed.

It will go someway to taking fraudsters working full time or near to full time off the dole.

To be honest, right now for me, €196 a week for a part time 'easy' job doesn't sound bad.

Working freelance, my wages have dropped massively. Some weeks I'm lucky to make €196, yet being self-employed I can't sign on.

If I could sign up for this the weeks I'm not working, I would.

spoonface

TheReverend wrote: »

Could be a good idea, however people should have some choice in where they work.

If they had some choice, they would already have a job. So why should choice come into it? It will give people back self-worth and perhaps confidence to get a job, they might get some usable skills and the country gets something back for the money it pays them. Everybody wins.