Dole recipients Will have to work 19.5 hours

liammur

I would say this is an attempt to try and get some graduates to emigrate. There will be NO smart economy!

Welease

Sandvich wrote: »

Can you show these arguments are purely emotional and have no merit instead of just SAYING they do?

I contest that your argument is entirely emotional since you're not refuting anything that's been presented, showing your argument is not founded in reason.

A few of the arguements presented..

- Person worked for 30 years why should they have to demean themselves by doing forced labour? Demean themselves by working for money.. it's ok to take handouts.. but working in exchange is demeaning..Get a job then, or emigrate.. a job is not a right, and if you don't want to be in "forced" labour, then don't expect me to be "forced" to pay for you to do nothing..

- It will stop people hiring into positions - The list of jobs in the article were "school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities".. these were goverment type job where there is currently an embargo on recruitment. They are community/charity based projects which have minimal impact on private sector employment as a) they are not private projects and b) the government doesnt/wouldnt have the cash to pay for those projects in the current climate anyway.

- Is going to move loads of people from Unemployment benefit to disability benefit - It's going to expose those who don't want to work? Good.. this does seem to be one of the aims.. and if they can be tracked down then something can be done.

- Its free work for companies - I've only seem community and charities mentioned in reports.. this is not an attempt to create a free labour force for private enterprise.

- Community service has normally been a punishment, this is therefore a punishment for being on the dole.. - No! community service is primarily done by civic minded people who give a crap what their local community looks like, people who help out old folks, help charities, run football/.gaa/youth clubs for kids.. this is an extension of those projects.

- and the unsaid ones of.. I just can't be arsed... Well tough ****, I can't be arsed to continue paying rediculous taxes so you can sit on your arse..

Did I miss any?

Valmont

Sandvich wrote: »

The idea of replacing welfare with private charity that many libertarians have is laughable. If they want to prove a point, then stories like this should be more common because goodness knows there's plenty of room for charity in the world regardless of welfare.

How could that be possible in the welfare state? People, through taxation, are lead to believe that their responsiblities to people in need begin and end with their income tax receipts. The government is supposed to be taking care of it already. Typical though, the idea of punitive taxes to redistribute the wealth of the rich to those in need when you and other collectivists fail to completely address the issue of who is going to create all of the wealth if you steal it all from them*. I mean, for goodness sake, can you guys not get over that hurdle?

*Oh yeah, no need for wealth, money or any other elements of reality in a collectivist utopia.

Valmont

liammur wrote: »

I would say this is an attempt to try and get some graduates to emigrate. There will be NO smart economy!

There is no smart economy.

liammur

Valmont wrote: »

There is no smart economy.

Correct.

However, we've been told the future is the smart economy. Getting graduates out sweeping the roads must be what they have in mind.

Keep up the good work FF.

ntlbell

liammur wrote: »

Correct.

However, we've been told the future is the smart economy. Getting graduates out sweeping the roads must be what they have in mind.

Keep up the good work FF.

Because graduates sitting on their xboxes is more benificial?

liammur

Perhaps updating their skills is more beneficial.

Speeding up emigration is the name of this game. That should be quite clear to even the uninitiated amongst us.

AnnyHallsal

BarryDoodles wrote: »

I'm a university student surviving on next to nothing.. the opportunity cost of going to uni outweighs any benefits i gain from this education within the next five years.

I hope you picked an area that's in considerable demand. Imagine this waiting for you at the end of your course, as some of us are.

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

A few of the arguements presented..

- Person worked for 30 years why should they have to demean themselves by doing forced labour? Demean themselves by working for money.. it's ok to take handouts.. but working in exchange is demeaning..Get a job then, or emigrate.. a job is not a right, and if you don't want to be in "forced" labour, then don't expect me to be "forced" to pay for you to do nothing..

- It will stop people hiring into positions - The list of jobs in the article were "school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities".. these were goverment type job where there is currently an embargo on recruitment. They are community/charity based projects which have minimal impact on private sector employment as a) they are not private projects and b) the government doesnt/wouldnt have the cash to pay for those projects in the current climate anyway.

- Is going to move loads of people from Unemployment benefit to disability benefit - It's going to expose those who don't want to work? Good.. this does seem to be one of the aims.. and if they can be tracked down then something can be done.

- Its free work for companies - I've only seem community and charities mentioned in reports.. this is not an attempt to create a free labour force for private enterprise.

- Community service has normally been a punishment, this is therefore a punishment for being on the dole.. - No! community service is primarily done by civic minded people who give a crap what their local community looks like, people who help out old folks, help charities, run football/.gaa/youth clubs for kids.. this is an extension of those projects.

- and the unsaid ones of.. I just can't be arsed... Well tough ****, I can't be arsed to continue paying rediculous taxes so you can sit on your arse..

Did I miss any?

I think you've missed them all

Satanta

Obviously it is wrong to generalise everyone on the dole as this or that. There are casees of those unfortunates that have been laid off after loyal service to some large companies in the country. There are others who have been long term unemployed for the majority of their adult life. And there are those who are claiming the dole with all the other social benefits AND heading out to do a weeks work on the black economy. I have a cousin who is on the dole and also works this way... and earns a considerable amount of money in the process. Again... I am not trying to generalise here, I am giving one isolated example.

The arguements for this proposal would include that preasure is put on those in the black economy either to give up the dole or commit to the 20 hours per week in order to claim this entitlement. Also, there is a benefit to the people taking part in the scheme. When looking through a CV, a potential employer tends to notice large holes or gaps in the employment record. Here, the CV couls be filled with potentially a number of roles and therefore skills.

I dont really see to many feasable arguements against TBH:rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

I think you've missed them all

I'm sure if any existed, you would be the first to point us to them.

crouchingtiger

Sandvich wrote: »

Sorry, but whether or not they're devil spawn is not the issue here.

They're costing us a lot more than dole feens.

Also, you were the one calling someone "low economic value". he merely countered your point. People who do more harm than good to the economy are still in receipt of large sums of money.

The last time I checked, this thread was about the "dole feens", and not the banksters.

Please do not try to correct me on accuracy when you are being inaccurate.

I was trying to make the point that these people who get ore than 10 euro and hour for soft jobs, will be payed marginally better than people doing the most slavish, hard manual minimum wage jobs.

If you are unemployed, you are low economic value btw, you are like the bankers, ie. of negative economic value.

It is grossly unfair, they should do 30 hrs for the same sum of money.

McDougal

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Theft of the workers

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes

wiseguy

Sandvich wrote: »

Also, that's $5 million for doing nothing.

But of course, it's a crime to be on welfare in a recession. It's only when less well off people get money for nothing it concerns you.

Socialism, a form of organized begrudgery . Mind your own business maybe?
The irony of thinking that people and companies can not run their own affairs, yet a centrally controlled organisation run by bureaucrats and politicians can :rolleyes: Yeh that worked out great in the past

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

Socialism, a form of organized begrudgery

mind your own business maybe?

Spoken like a true Fianna Fáiler

Anyone who objects to the crooks, spivs, parasites and thieves flaunting their cash and they are labelled a begrudger

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

wiseguy

McDougal wrote: »

Spoken like a true Fianna Fáiler

Anyone who objects to the crooks, spivs, parasites and thieves flaunting their cash and they are labelled a begrudger

Please :rolleyes: I despise FF as much as the next person so quit throwing cheap shots, it makes you look silly.
Unlike you I recognize that socialism is a failed ideology. This very thread is a result of one of its failures.

Welease

Sandvich wrote: »

So, we should rely on the speculative generosity of the super rich rather than getting more of that money in the hands of those who need it to begin with?

This is nothing to do with the super rich... the vast majority of taxes paid in this country are paid by middle class working people, not the ultra rich, and certainly not the poor (50% of working people in this country don't pay tax)..

These hard working middle class have limited funds to continue to bankroll this country (hence the defecit), given a large percentage of those middle class would be PS (and therefore a tax take has to exist previously in order to employ those)..

The simple fact is, if this plan is implemented, then if med/long term unemployed don't want to contribute to society, they will be left with the choice to stop receiving welfare or gain employment elsewhere. I personally have no issue with that.

McDougal

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No one aqquires that much wealth without engaging in theft at some point. You don't become a billionaire through hard work, you become one by getting others to work hard for you. Not paying workers their full value is a form of theft. Profits are unpaid wages.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

No one aqquires that much wealth without engaging in theft at some point. You don't become a billionaire through hard work, you become one by getting others to work hard for you. Not paying workers their full value is a form of theft. Profits are unpaid wages.

Congrats on the most rediculous statement I have ever seen posted on these boards....

I'm guessing you have never stepped up to the mark and created any employment in this country yourself.. because that of course would make you an evil dictator...

Profits..
Profits allow a company to save money for the bad times
Profits allow a company to invest in R&D, Capital Expenditure and <gasp> long term development of staff
Profits allow a Irish companies to have flexibility to innovate in order to combat the threat of foreign companies who can and will do it cheaper
Profits in public traded companies are available via dividends which anyone who is an shareholder of the company can take.. Many companies nowadays have share schemes for employees..
Profits allow a company to grow and provide more secure employment for thier staff.
Profits allow companies leeway to invest in extra staff and take risks in order to try an create new business.
Profits allow the company to deal with unforseen issues/crisis..
Profits are the only form of credit that many business have access to nowadays..

Not making profits, means no investment and you run the serious risk of going bust.. Given your deep social concerns, how many non profitable companies have you decided to invest in? I'm guessing NONE...

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

Please :rolleyes: I despise FF as much as the next person so quit throwing cheap shots, it makes you look silly.
Unlike you I recognize that socialism is a failed ideology. This very thread is a result of one of its failures.

You have to know what socialism is before you can call it a failed ideology

wiseguy

McDougal wrote: »

You have to know what socialism is before you can call it a failed ideology

Tell us then, what is it

McDougal

wiseguy wrote: »

Tell us then, what is it

Quite simply it's the belief that the resources of the earth belong to the people and not to corporations and a small group of private individuals.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Quite simply it's the belief that the resources of the earth belong to the people and not to corporations and a small group of private individuals.

Thanks for the clarification..

Your earlier statements seemed to suggest I should continue to work 12 hour days and pay large taxes so a portion of society could continue to contribute nothing to the community..

I assume with this clarification of our social "oneness" that you now agree with the community schemes, and that everyone has a responsibility to help....

wiseguy

McDougal wrote: »

Quite simply it's the belief that the resources of the earth belong to the people and not to corporations and a small group of private individuals.

I see: Redistribution of wealth

So:
* If a {person or group of people or state} does not want "their" wealth you need to "force" them?
* If the {product of your work, savings, wealth} will be taken from you, then why bother working?

liammur

What we have here is:

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

furerer

I gotta be honest, I did not read all the pages leading up to this, so my apologies if my statements have already been aired.

I noticed the amount of threads relating to "unemployed" and the amount of threads relating to "the real crooks" on "Irish economy" are not consistent with the reality of Ireland today.

Working 19.5 hrs a week for an extra 200 p.w. sounds good....that's what c.e. schemes pay, is it not? But the unemployed are not the reason the country is crippled. That is solely the governments responsibility. It's all well and fine pointing the finger at those that have the least, but the finger should be pointing at those in power. The corruption in Irish governments is "in your face" and no-one does a thing about it, but blame those that have nothing to do with it. Bertie Ahern, "I dont have a bank account"........what a load of boll-cks. The country has to take drastic measures with pensions, child allowance, dole, etc. but we can give millions towards Greece's financial woes.......funny.....I thought we were broke. Ireland can still pay child allowance to children that are not even in this counry....and never were....but we're broke. The social security dept can find 20million to install cctv in dole offices.........but we're broke, and just to try and catch the odd dole cheat........which will not even touch the start of 20million. Ministers can still jet around the country in ministerial planes at the cost of 100,000 euro per day.........but we're broke. Scandals of misrepresented expenses by ministers are rife, but has any of them been sent to prison? New prisons being built at a cost of millions while our children are taught in portacabins in school.......why aren't the prisoners in portacabins, and new school rooms for our children being built?
This country is being run by a pack of charlatans that do not give a toss about the public........their motto is divide and conquer......let the natives argue amongst themselves while the govt. spend, spend, spend......on themselves.
One day the people will wake up......I hope......and see just how badly they are being treated by their own govt. I have only touched upon the waste of money this govt. seems intent on doing.......I haven't even mentioned the banks, nama, council spending, etc. in fact the list of waste by this govt. would go for pages if it were broken down...........but hey.......you carry on about working 19.5 hrs a week.........instead of paying dole at the rate of 200 it will now be 400.....that makes sense!
Noticed the comments about the Hiltons and their wealth.........and have to agree with one of the comments........to become extremely wealthy you have to be prepared to walk over people..........look at some of the "extremely wealthy" td's;)

Count Dooku

wiseguy wrote: »

I see: Redistribution of wealth

even worse
Redistribution of wealth under full control of few socialists, who will gain all benefits and everybody else will have what will be left after them and everything will be covered by left wing rhetoric

Welease

furerer wrote: »

I gotta be honest, I did not read all the pages leading up to this, so my apologies if my statements have already been aired.

I noticed the amount of threads relating to "unemployed" and the amount of threads relating to "the real crooks" on "Irish economy" are not consistent with the reality of Ireland today.

Working 19.5 hrs a week for an extra 200 p.w. sounds good....that's what c.e. schemes pay, is it not? But the unemployed are not the reason the country is crippled. That is solely the governments responsibility. It's all well and fine pointing the finger at those that have the least, but the finger should be pointing at those in power. The corruption in Irish governments is "in your face" and no-one does a thing about it, but blame those that have nothing to do with it. Bertie Ahern, "I dont have a bank account"........what a load of boll-cks. The country has to take drastic measures with pensions, child allowance, dole, etc. but we can give millions towards Greece's financial woes.......funny.....I thought we were broke. Ireland can still pay child allowance to children that are not even in this counry....and never were....but we're broke. The social security dept can find 20million to install cctv in dole offices.........but we're broke, and just to try and catch the odd dole cheat........which will not even touch the start of 20million. Ministers can still jet around the country in ministerial planes at the cost of 100,000 euro per day.........but we're broke. Scandals of misrepresented expenses by ministers are rife, but has any of them been sent to prison? New prisons being built at a cost of millions while our children are taught in portacabins in school.......why aren't the prisoners in portacabins, and new school rooms for our children being built?
This country is being run by a pack of charlatans that do not give a toss about the public........their motto is divide and conquer......let the natives argue amongst themselves while the govt. spend, spend, spend......on themselves.
One day the people will wake up......I hope......and see just how badly they are being treated by their own govt. I have only touched upon the waste of money this govt. seems intent on doing.......I haven't even mentioned the banks, nama, council spending, etc. in fact the list of waste by this govt. would go for pages if it were broken down...........but hey.......you carry on about working 19.5 hrs a week.........instead of paying dole at the rate of 200 it will now be 400.....that makes sense!
Noticed the comments about the Hiltons and their wealth.........and have to agree with one of the comments........to become extremely wealthy you have to be prepared to walk over people..........look at some of the "extremely wealthy" td's;)

So... no single issue should be tackled until all issues can be tackled?

(and it's not an issue.. many will be happy for the opportunity (as they currently can't volunteer), and those who believe they should have state handouts with no contribution will have those beliefs challenged).

(and its not an extra 200 )