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Dole recipients Will have to work 19.5 hours
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How do you objectively establish a worker's full 'value'?No one aqquires that much wealth without engaging in theft at some point. You don't become a billionaire through hard work, you become one by getting others to work hard for you. Not paying workers their full value is a form of theft. Profits are unpaid wages.0 -
Calm down.Enough with the barstool sociology and "defines us as human" guff.
Of course it's natural to want to provide for your children but the state also has a responsibility to provide for all the children. If Mrs. Murphy wants to pass on her Fruit and Veg shop to her son then fine. However why should the robber barons be able to pass on their ill gotten gains to their offspring for generations and generations? Do you believe the Gore-Booths' descendents had a right to own the Lisadell estate in Sligo because their forefathers robbed it in the 17th century? Do you believe Paris Hilton deserves to drink, do drugs, party, sleep around and shop all day while other children all over the world are born with no chance or opportunity? Does young Murdoch deserve to inherit a media empire worth billions?
And no where in Ireland has any land or property still been in the same family for millenia. There was always theft at some point or other. I bet you are not calling for Australia to be returned to the aboriginals, Peru to the Incas or Western America to native Americans?
And no, socialists have no desire to seize Granpa's pie shop despite what the Sunday Independent might tell you. We are more interested taking natural resources such as oil and gas into public ownership and throwing out the Shell robber barons. In a socialist state, small family business would do much better. They would receive preference for state contracts over transnationals and would be protected by regulation stopping massive chains like Wal-Mart/Tesco expanding. In fact it is capitalism that will mark the death knell for small family businesses. There will never be able to compete with the economies of scale from giant corporations. Look at any high street in Ireland and all you'll see are British chains. Don't give me this crap about your "Dad's small business".
So, in your system, some people would be allowed to pass on their legacies to their children, but other children would have their legacies removed from them and distributed to the masses. Where and how do you define the threshold? Sandvich talks about "old money" but surely someone who started say a company like Google or Facebook from a garage in California cannot be defined as coming from "old money" and they have received no "unfair advantage" through "property theft" as you call it. Should these people also be prevented from passing on their mega fortunes to their children, just because it's above your predefined threshold?0 -
SuperInfinity wrote: »Welease you are a troll and don't have a clue of what you're talking about. You're hypocritical and a very weak-minded thinker. You're adding smileys and winks just to annoy people. And I'm not being spiteful about calling you weak-minded, you genuinely obviously can not think things through.
I don't know why something isn't being done about his messages.
EDIT: Okay, I toned it down a bit.
Neither the original post nor this "toned down" version are remotely acceptable. Do not accuse other posters of trolling, and do not insult other posters. Infraction & (short) ban - I advise you to read the charter.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
My 2c, as someone who's been unemployed the last 10 months..
I've worked ever since I finished college - first in 2 of the IT multinationals, and the last 4 years in a public sector body as an IT Manager.
Because of this government's incompetence in running the country and managing the economy properly, my employer was forced to make me redundant late last year as a result of the recruitment embargo (despite appeals to the Department to retain me, and despite my workload becoming busier than ever - not EVERYONE in the PS is a waster by the way).
Anyway, as a result of all this I've been looking every day for a job since and while I've had a few interviews, I've had no luck beyond that yet. But, I've also been keeping busy as best I can helping out at home, trying to study on my own, and constantly worrying about where this month's rent is coming from (because contrary to popular belief here, your commitments - bills, loans etc - don't just disappear when you are made unemployed).
But I'll be DAMNED if I'll be forced by the same government that made me redundant as a result of its incompetence to sweep the streets or something to "earn" money I've been paying towards since I started working. I feel bad enough and stressed enough about my situation as it is without being made to feel like some sort of criminal doing a community service sentence as well! It's bad enough that you're treated like one of those stereotypical "scumbag druggie wasters" if you NEED to ask the "system" for assistance!
Don't get me wrong.. I WANT to work, and I'm doing my upmost to get something, but I'm not going to work for nothing doing something that will be of absolutely no benefit to me (career wise or financially)... I'll just pack up and leave before that.. I'm seriously considering it anyway!0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »My 2c, as someone who's been unemployed the last 10 months..
I've worked ever since I finished college - first in 2 of the IT multinationals, and the last 4 years in a public sector body as an IT Manager.
Because of this government's incompetence in running the country and managing the economy properly, my employer was forced to make me redundant late last year as a result of the recruitment embargo (despite appeals to the Department to retain me, and despite my workload becoming busier than ever - not EVERYONE in the PS is a waster by the way).
Anyway, as a result of all this I've been looking every day for a job since and while I've had a few interviews, I've had no luck beyond that yet. But, I've also been keeping busy as best I can helping out at home, trying to study on my own, and constantly worrying about where this month's rent is coming from (because contrary to popular belief here, your commitments - bills, loans etc - don't just disappear when you are made unemployed).
But I'll be DAMNED if I'll be forced by the same government that made me redundant as a result of its incompetence to sweep the streets or something to "earn" money I've been paying towards since I started working. I feel bad enough and stressed enough about my situation as it is without being made to feel like some sort of criminal doing a community service sentence as well! It's bad enough that you're treated like one of those stereotypical "scumbag druggie wasters" if you NEED to ask the "system" for assistance!
Don't get me wrong.. I WANT to work, and I'm doing my upmost to get something, but I'm not going to work for nothing doing something that will be of absolutely no benefit to me (career wise or financially)... I'll just pack up and leave before that.. I'm seriously considering it anyway!
its about time the goverment started segregating the unemployed by classes . i mean how terrible is it that people with masters degree should have to sigh on in the same office as the great unwashed , and to think they would have to sweep streets , unthinkable !0 -
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its about time the goverment started segregating the unemployed by classes . i mean how terrible is it that people with masters degree should have to sigh on in the same office as the great unwashed , and to think they would have to sweep streets , unthinkable !
Lame response DanBohan. Where has Kaiser mentioned having a Masters or the belief that he/she should be segretated from those without a third level qualification, if that is who you are referring to as the "great unwashed". And just by the way, sweeping streets is a job carried out by local authorities, would you like someone on the dole to come along and start doing your job?0 -
No one ever suggested it was street sweeping- I'm glad that if I become unemployed and no longer have to commute 4 hours a day I can say that I won't be told what to work at to earn my benefits, this tax and PRSI sure does go along way with 12 months UB Schools hospitals SW Payments and third level education!
When I lost my job before I worked cutting grass in a graveyard, I should have realised it was beneath a person with a degree and just gone on my stamps instead- I've paid them since I was 16!0 -
its about time the goverment started segregating the unemployed by classes . i mean how terrible is it that people with masters degree should have to sigh on in the same office as the great unwashed , and to think they would have to sweep streets , unthinkable !No one ever suggested it was street sweeping- I'm glad that if I become unemployed and no longer have to commute 4 hours a day I can say that I won't be told what to work at to earn my benefits, this tax and PRSI sure does go along way with 12 months UB Schools hospitals SW Payments and third level education!
When I lost my job before I worked cutting grass in a graveyard, I should have realised it was beneath a person with a degree and just gone on my stamps instead- I've paid them since I was 16!
Y'know, for such an "educated literate" people, there are a lot of people who just can't READ in this country :rolleyes:
Where did I make any reference to having a degree/masters, OR say that things were "beneath" me?
Let's try again...
Most people work to get by financially and secondly, to better themselves.
Explain to me HOW a scheme like this would be of ANY benefit to me in either of these cases - indeed, it'd no doubt COST me money (I don't have!) to get to wherever this "job" (in the loosest sense of the word) was.
I've worked damned hard all my working life, and I plan to again as soon as I get something, and I am SICK to DEATH of this smug arrogance on this site from people who think that everyone who's on the dole is a lazy, sponging scumbag.
I think there's too many middle-class Celtic Tiger cubs here who've never had to REALLY struggle to get by. God forbid you lot ever find yourselves with less than a quarter of your (monthly) income overnight, but the same bills to pay, AND having to deal with people with the same mentality as yourselves.0 -
Lame response DanBohan. Where has Kaiser mentioned having a Masters or the belief that he/she should be segretated from those without a third level qualification, if that is who you are referring to as the "great unwashed". And just by the way, sweeping streets is a job carried out by local authorities, would you like someone on the dole to come along and start doing your job?
@d on livelline yesterday spouting same sh1t , if your unemployed your unemployed does not matter what you did in past and yes you should be made sweep the street or whatever community work rather than be given handouts , we cannot as a country continuie to pay 450k+ unemployed the benifits we are currently paying them and this may very well have a knock on effect on jobs people are doing but so be it , irelands time of choices is over , if you dont like the options do something , start a buisness , emigrate , whatever0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »Y'know, for such an "educated literate" people, there are a lot of people who just can't READ in this country :rolleyes:
Where did I make any reference to having a degree/masters, OR say that things were "beneath" me?
Let's try again...
Most people work to get by financially and secondly, to better themselves.
Explain to me HOW a scheme like this would be of ANY benefit to me in either of these cases - indeed, it'd no doubt COST me money (I don't have!) to get to wherever this "job" (in the loosest sense of the word) was.
I've worked damned hard all my working life, and I plan to again as soon as I get something, and I am SICK to DEATH of this smug arrogance on this site from people who think that everyone who's on the dole is a lazy, sponging scumbag.
I think there's too many middle-class Celtic Tiger cubs here who've never had to REALLY struggle to get by. God forbid you lot ever find yourselves with less than a quarter of your (monthly) income overnight, but the same bills to pay, AND having to deal with people with the same mentality as yourselves.
forgot about you , you are unemployed , you are been supported by the taxpayers of this country so you should do what this country asks you to do and if thats sweep the street so be it , it will not benifit you but it might your community and the day you asked the country/community/taxpayer to support you then your self entitlement disappered, now you dont have to do this community work if you dont like you can sigh off and survive without taxpayers support0 -
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Works out at just over a tenner an hour. Seems fair!0
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Kaiser2000 wrote: »Y'know, for such an "educated literate" people, there are a lot of people who just can't READ in this country :rolleyes:
Where did I make any reference to having a degree/masters, OR say that things were "beneath" me?
Let's try again...
Most people work to get by financially and secondly, to better themselves.
Explain to me HOW a scheme like this would be of ANY benefit to me in either of these cases - indeed, it'd no doubt COST me money (I don't have!) to get to wherever this "job" (in the loosest sense of the word) was.
I've worked damned hard all my working life, and I plan to again as soon as I get something, and I am SICK to DEATH of this smug arrogance on this site from people who think that everyone who's on the dole is a lazy, sponging scumbag.
I think there's too many middle-class Celtic Tiger cubs here who've never had to REALLY struggle to get by. God forbid you lot ever find yourselves with less than a quarter of your (monthly) income overnight, but the same bills to pay, AND having to deal with people with the same mentality as yourselves.
I've said it before that NO country can ever achieve full employment. We came close to it, proving that only the tiniest % of people here don't want to work. But sometimes you are wasting your time with people. A quick glance of these boards illustrates perfectly why FF have been in power for so long.0 -
@d on livelline yesterday spouting same sh1t , if your unemployed your unemployed does not matter what you did in past and yes you should be made sweep the street or whatever community work rather than be given handouts , we cannot as a country continuie to pay 450k+ unemployed the benifits we are currently paying them and this may very well have a knock on effect on jobs people are doing but so be it , irelands time of choices is over , if you dont like the options do something , start a buisness , emigrate , whatever
Well we'll leave aside the inferred petty childish namecalling (though you do realise it cheapens the rest of your argument, right?)
I guess the difference is that, even when I was working, I didn't look down on those less fortunate than me.
Yes, I'll grant you that there is a certain percentage of welfare claimants who fit your "lazy, don't WANT to work" stereotype, and yes, I'll even go so far as to agree that something SHOULD be done to make THESE people get back into the workforce.
But to suggest that people like myself (and the thousands of others who've been made redundant through no fault of our own!) and who are doing their very best to find alternative employment while meeting their existing responsibilities, are in the same catagory as the above is not only insulting, it's completely untrue!
This whole argument that "well now the country is screwed and we have no choices anymore" completely ignores the BILLIONS (never to be seen again!) that are STILL being poured down the bottomless pit that is Anglo and the other banks, it completely ignores that those responsible for leading the country to its knees are getting away with it scot free, and it completely ignores that those in the PRIVATE SECTOR had no problem in the "good times" inflating the bubble with ridiculous salaries and bonus plans, which in turn drove the price of everything ELSE up too.
I will say one thing for our government - they are masters of misdirection. First everything was the fault of the "lazy public sector workers", now it's the "lazy unemployed" and while there are indeed people in both camps who fit that description, I think you'll find MOST people are exactly like yourself.. trying to get by, do their bit and have some sort of happiness for themselves and their families.
But just as this country now has a "can't someone else do it?" mentality, so too does it have a complete lack of any sense of personal responsibility.0 -
So... no single issue should be tackled until all issues can be tackled?
(and it's not an issue.. many will be happy for the opportunity (as they currently can't volunteer), and those who believe they should have state handouts with no contribution will have those beliefs challenged).
(and its not an extra 200
)
you'd be better off tackling issues that matter, not issues that point the finger at the working class. If you're unemployed yourself then go and work for nothing.........no-one cares, if you're employed ask your employer if you can now work for the dole amount you would receive, again, no-one cares. You've got your head exactly where the govt. want it.
As far as the 200 is concerned.......with your smirky little smiley.......look into the ce schemes.......read other threads.........A lad on the dole getting nearly 200 a week took up a ce scheme in Enniscorthy......and received an extra 191 on top of his dole........
Why dont you answer some real issues like the payments to people who have no children in this counry but still receive child allowance.........and the payments to asylum seekers to integrate with society.0 -
forgot about you , you are unemployed , you are been supported by the taxpayers of this country so you should do what this country asks you to do and if thats sweep the street so be it , it will not benifit you but it might your community and the day you asked the country/community/taxpayer to support you then your self entitlement disappered, now you dont have to do this community work if you dont like you can sigh off and survive without taxpayers support
Good point. I dont understand this "I am not working for nothing" attitude - they will be working for their 196 a week. If they were working for nothing they would be getting nothing.0 -
The dole to Kaiser is an insurance payment. He paid the premiums in PAYE and PRSI. Now the unthinkable has happened, he's lost his job and he's put in a claim. I believe that changing the conditions for his payment should be thought about very carefully and not in a knee-jerk fashion. Hopefully before long he'll be making his premium payments again.
Meanwhile, there are thousands of people who have never paid their premiums and are claiming every week. Let's start with them.
Once again, this government is dividing and conquering. Today the person on the dole is the enemy. Get them! :mad:0 -
forgot about you , you are unemployed , you are been supported by the taxpayers of this country so you should do what this country asks you to do and if thats sweep the street so be it , it will not benifit you but it might your community and the day you asked the country/community/taxpayer to support you then your self entitlement disappered, now you dont have to do this community work if you dont like you can sigh off and survive without taxpayers support
I don't know why I'm bothering really...
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" eh? Nice idea... except when the country is run by a corrupt greedy elite who's only interest at the moment seems to be to bankrupt that country and point the fingers at everyone else while they do it.
I'll tell you some of the things that MIGHT make a difference to this country you're so proud of. I say MIGHT because chances are it's already too late to pull us back from the brink.
1. Stop ANY further bailouts of any bank. Bad enough the money that's been squandered already, without committing our children to paying for our mistakes as well.
2. Ruthlessly restructure the public sector - eliminate the dead wood and implement productivity targets and regular performance reviews, combined with rewards (realistic) for those that achieve them.
3. Restructure semi-states in the same manner
4. No TD should make more than €50k. After all serving "your country" is a privilege right? Set verifiable targets for attendance to debates, votes etc and put in place a proper expenses system that can be tracked to the last cent claimed. Also restructure the constituency boundaries - I don't think we need as many TDs as we have. Set a maximum length of time any one party can remain in power (say, 2 consecutive terms).
5. Redirect the savings from these measures into creating new sustainable employment. The days of relying on US multinationals are over as they move further east. Unless we all want to become potato farmers again, we better think of something.
If we did THAT then maybe things might improve in this country, but expecting those who can least afford it (the unemployed) to carry the can for the decisions made by the ruling elite is both unrealistic and pointless.0 -
Just wanted to highlight this - particularly the last paragraph - as he has it spot on.monkeypants wrote: »The dole to Kaiser is an insurance payment. He paid the premiums in PAYE and PRSI. Now the unthinkable has happened, he's lost his job and he's put in a claim. I believe that changing the conditions for his payment should be thought about very carefully and not in a knee-jerk fashion. Hopefully before long he'll be making his premium payments again.
Meanwhile, there are thousands of people who have never paid their premiums and are claiming every week. Let's start with them.
Once again, this government is dividing and conquering. Today the person on the dole is the enemy. Get them! :mad:
But unfortunately, as is the Irish way, it's easier to point fingers at "someone else" :mad:0 -
FFS, nobody is claiming that recently unemployed folks (there but for the grace of God go I and all that) are the "enemy". This scheme will only target out and out wasters. It is a good thing to weed these people out of the system so that people like Kaiser can actually receive what they have been paying PRSI for. If we target the leeches and reduce their benefits packages when they refuse to cooperate, we save money that can help sustain the dole for those that don't actually want to be on it and are making genuine efforts to get off it.
However, a threshold has to be set somewhere. In Germany it's one year. In Ireland I think it should be more than that given the massive increase in unemployment in such a short space of time. When (if) the irish economy returns to some sense of normality, the time frame should be reduced to 1 year to prevent long term dole bludgers from ever again filling the live register.0 -
its about time the goverment started segregating the unemployed by classes . i mean how terrible is it that people with masters degree should have to sigh on in the same office as the great unwashed , and to think they would have to sweep streets , unthinkable !
Different classes of unemployed?! :pac:
So only the unemployed from poorer backgrounds should do forced labour?0 -
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you'd be better off tackling issues that matter, not issues that point the finger at the working class. If you're unemployed yourself then go and work for nothing.........no-one cares, if you're employed ask your employer if you can now work for the dole amount you would receive, again, no-one cares. You've got your head exactly where the govt. want it.
As far as the 200 is concerned.......with your smirky little smiley.......look into the ce schemes.......read other threads.........A lad on the dole getting nearly 200 a week took up a ce scheme in Enniscorthy......and received an extra 191 on top of his dole........
Why dont you answer some real issues like the payments to people who have no children in this counry but still receive child allowance.........and the payments to asylum seekers to integrate with society.
But this isn't one of those other CE schemes.. You don't get 210 on top of your dole.. you get 210 for working 19.5 per week.. What some lad in Enniscorthy gets on a different scheme is irrelevant.
Regarding your other points.. if people are receiving payments they are not supposed to receive then of course it should be stamped out? Has anyone said otherwise?
There are plenty of issues with this country, and each and every one needs to be tackled..0 -
I wonder where all this work is that some are talking about........Dublin?
I live in the country.........Wexford area........Enniscorthy to be precise.......where 40% are unemployed. Then there are the fas trainees, lone parents, fis recipients, farmers subsidies, back to work recipients, etc. My estimation is 70% of Enniscorthy's population is in some sort of receipt of govt. assistance. This is probably the same in many areas of the country.
If the govt can find work........even for 19.5 hrs a week........why dont they employ us? No...they'd rather have cheap labour where no tax or prsi is paid, no pension to pay out at a later date, and no rules to adhere to as far as workers right & conditions are concerned.
I know of unemployed and disability claimants that have never worked ever........disability for 20 yrs, with nothing wrong with them.........and neither of these parties are ever questioned, even though they live in big houses and never seem to be short of a few bob. But become unemployed tomorrow and you're questioned as if you were a criminal.........in fact I dont think the criminals are questioned as much.
This "work for dole".........I believe child care was one of the "jobs".........are the govt going to make sure that these people are vetted by the gards before putting them with our children?
We should all be marching to Dublin and forcing this govt to resign.....they are an abomination to this country, dont give a monkeys uncle about the people....working or not........and have not stopped spending the hard earnt money that you and I pay, and the unemployed pay taxes.....road tax, insurance tax, tax on clothes, books, food........in fact everything is taxed......directly or indirectly.......and it always seems to be one of the highest taxes in the free world.
Ireland needs to change........but never will untill the powers at the top are removed........and the antique attitudes towards your fellow man........A catholic country where all you hear from the "gospel crowd" is gossip and rumours about others.........that's christian isn't it?0 -
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Different classes of unemployed?! :pac:
So only the unemployed from poorer backgrounds should do forced labour?
I dont think it would be so much a geographical distinction as a work ethic distinction. People who are long term unemployed and were unemployed during the celtic tiger when they could have worked, as distinct from those who have recently been laid off. Nobody is saying "lets target poor people". That minority card is much overused.0 -
Surely I can't be the only one who misread the title as 'Dail recipients will have to work 19.5 hours...'????0
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That will slapped on as a footnote to this bill. What's the point in having an expense account if you don't have the time to use it?Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »Surely I can't be the only one who misread the title as 'Dail recipients will have to work 19.5 hours...'????0 -
FFS, nobody is claiming that recently unemployed folks (there but for the grace of God go I and all that) are the "enemy".
Very true, and for some of us in favour of the scheme unemployment isn't all that remote a possibility. I can't say with any certainty that I'll still have work in three months time, for instance, and this has been the case for quite a while now. If I was to find myself unemployed for a considerable length of time, then by availing of the scheme after my stamps run out I'd get the following benefits:
1) No means assessor coming in and ordering me to spend my savings, which are there for study and possibly to start a small business down the road.
2) Being able to do some light contract work, I could do a few hours here and there while still availing of the scheme.
3) Having the choice of using my skills for a voluntary organisation, or of doing some outdoor work in the local community.
All in all that's a pretty good deal, and it looks to be one of the few ideas that FF have put at least some thought into. It'll be interesting to see the final details of the scheme, hopefully they'll be such that it'll work out well for people making a genuine effort and not so well for wasters.0 -
Per week or per month? :PBits_n_Bobs wrote: »Surely I can't be the only one who misread the title as 'Dail recipients will have to work 19.5 hours...'????0 -
A few of the arguements presented..
- Person worked for 30 years why should they have to demean themselves by doing forced labour? Demean themselves by working for money.. it's ok to take handouts.. but working in exchange is demeaning..Get a job then, or emigrate.. a job is not a right, and if you don't want to be in "forced" labour, then don't expect me to be "forced" to pay for you to do nothing..
People who have good qualifications and have been laid off are not dole scroungers. I myself(I'm on disability though, not dole) have an honours degree in computer science. I have a particularly low capacity for certain kinds of labour.
Not everyone shares the same view of labour that you do, and yes, many people would feel demeaned by it, because they have worked hard to get where they are and are then thrown back into the bottom of the ladder just to keep their unemployment benefits, which they paid for through PRSI anyway.
It's also very convenient for you to say that, again, when you have a job. You're just proving that people such as yourself are devoid of sympathy and understanding of the situation. People on the dole right now are not layabouts, nor does not being a layabout mean "any" work will do.
Would you pick dirty condoms up off the street without gloves?- It will stop people hiring into positions - The list of jobs in the article were "school services, childcare, services for older people and environmental projects, as well as in the improvement of sports and tourist facilities".. these were goverment type job where there is currently an embargo on recruitment. They are community/charity based projects which have minimal impact on private sector employment as a) they are not private projects and b) the government doesnt/wouldnt have the cash to pay for those projects in the current climate anyway.
These are all areas of potential economic growth for the private sector, especially environmental projects.
You don't seem to be realising that we can't go back to the way we were before, and our model as a productive nation needs to change from a factory based one to both a more educated one, and one providing services such as the ones you list.- Is going to move loads of people from Unemployment benefit to disability benefit - It's going to expose those who don't want to work? Good.. this does seem to be one of the aims.. and if they can be tracked down then something can be done.
I don't think that was a particularly good argument, as it sounds like one you eejits would use.- Its free work for companies - I've only seem community and charities mentioned in reports.. this is not an attempt to create a free labour force for private enterprise.
It could largely end up being so - again most of the sectors mentioned DO in fact have some private businesses involved. Childcare, environmental work, etc.- Community service has normally been a punishment, this is therefore a punishment for being on the dole.. - No! community service is primarily done by civic minded people who give a crap what their local community looks like, people who help out old folks, help charities, run football/.gaa/youth clubs for kids.. this is an extension of those projects.
I find it funny for someone who basically doesn't give a **** about people who've been laid off to talk about giving a crap about other people.
It's also amusing that people who take issue being "forced" to pay taxes take no issue with others being forced to do charitable work.0 -
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How could that be possible in the welfare state? People, through taxation, are lead to believe that their responsiblities to people in need begin and end with their income tax receipts. The government is supposed to be taking care of it already. Typical though, the idea of punitive taxes to redistribute the wealth of the rich to those in need when you and other collectivists fail to completely address the issue of who is going to create all of the wealth if you steal it all from them*. I mean, for goodness sake, can you guys not get over that hurdle?
*Oh yeah, no need for wealth, money or any other elements of reality in a collectivist utopia.
Bull****. What you basically have here is philosophically identical to criminals who say they'll do great things if only you take off these handcuffs. This is the fat cat Libertarian argument down to a T.
Obviously, nothing was stopping one guy from giving all his money to charity, why not everyone else? Saying that's the government's job currently is a pathetic excuse. I mean, really? It's these rich assholes that want to prove Libertarianism is a good system to everyone else. Yet they fail to take the appropriate measures to show they can be trusted. In fact, precisely the opposite has happened on quite a large scale.
You are also pushing the strawman that "collectivists" such as myself(which I have never identified with - it's shameful the demeaning terminology that libertarians on this forum get away with) want to rob people of all their money, take all money out of industry which is not the case.
There is a difference between communism and regulated capitalism, with many steps in between. More specifically, I(and I suspect most of the opponents on this forum, bar a few socialists, and socialism is a broad term which can include socialist libertarians like Noam Chomsky) am a closer to a Social Democrat than a "collectivist" or "socialist". You want to be seen as educated and presenting a viable alternative, when you can't even acknowledge this?
The Libertarian resurgence you're seeing now also happened around the time of the great depression. What they won't admit is that it's effectively a death saving throw when their way of doing this has been largely proven wrong.
Modern Libertarians are a complete joke. Most of your arguments fall back on either flat out delusional or amazing levels of optimism with regards human nature(Private endeavours will solve climate change!!!), outright complete and utter lack of regard for others, or using terminology like "socialist" "statist" or "collectivist" as an insult. I have made many posts where this has been the sole response of a libertarian.
If you want to make a good argument, the first thing you need to do is throw away such ridiculous practices as this. While this forum may be biased towards right wing libertarianism, the world outside does not take you seriously precisely because of things like this.0
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