Careful Now!...Religion thread.

jumpguy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhV4-1nZs_A

(Had to be done)

theowen

Greatest invention ever=idea of a higher power.

Tragedy

randylonghorn wrote: »

The basic tenets of Christianity are as modern and applicable now as they ever were. The central message of Jesus in the gospels (whether you believe he was the son of god or not) are simple and timeless ... love one another; treat others as you would like to be treated; take especial care of the weak and the old and the children, etc.

None of that is religious or religion though?

In fact, most of it would be considered governmental social policy these days and I suspect people feel that a Government supporting the weak, needy and infirm abrogates their personal responsibility to do it.

Personally, I believe in this:


If you're going to believe in a religion, you might as well believe in one that links the decline in the worldwide number of pirates with global warming.

D4RK ONION

Oh, just noticed this thread! Goodie :P

First of all, I should point out that my stance on religion changes like the seasons. Most of the time I'd file myself under militant agnostic (although I never tell people that, because the word militant scares them :P). In a sentence it's "I don't know if there's a God or not, and you haven't really got a clue either!"

However, I become far more defensive and argumentative if I'm surrounded by religion (eg being in a church) or am talking to someone who is rather religious themselves and makes it pretty obvious in their life. Now, this wouldn't usually be a problem, I'm not in Churches a whole bunch, and I generally don't hang out with people who need to tell me their religion.

Unfortunately for me and Insect Overlord, we went to the biggest Catholic college in the country. Crucifixes as far as the eye can see, a big ass chapel at the centre of the college, compulsory religious lectures for our course (which included doing projects on religion. On evangelising religion) etc. It was really hard not to have to bring up my beliefs among peers, most of whom would be practising Catholics (60% of my year went to mass on a regular basis circa 1st year). Needless to say arguments where I the filthy atheist (NOT AN ATHEIST) piddled on people beliefs arose. Genuinely, I was the token atheist of my class group.

And of course, having finished up there, I am still not free from the grips of religion. 96% of the workplaces where I can practice my chosen profession are Catholic buildings where (and the lecturers can dress this up anyway they want but it still is) the indoctrination of children into the Catholic faith occurs. The real sad part is not for me (painful as it is, I can put on my "lol I < 3 Jesus" face if needs be, hopefully I'll be teaching in Educate Together schools), many parents have to send their kids to a Catholic school because the ET schools have waiting lists you need to be on as soon as your kids is born. TBH, that's what really pisses me off about this country.


Aside/TL;DR : I, like Fad, find religions as a social phenomenon really interesting, and I can tolerate all people's rights to believe in religion. I am not a religion basher, I am simply rather protective of my right not to believe. Being an outed Atheist Primary School teacher can be quite difficult.

you just read this

The thing I dont like about religon, christianity anyway, is the idea of doing good things so you can 'get into heaven'. Quite selfish when you think about it.

I believe I will find out if there is life after death when i die and thats good enough for me

Tragedy

In Primary School, we went to mass once a term if even that. No religion thought in class, and I'm not sure we ever prayed.

Secondary School, I went to a Christian Brothers School. Religion was compulsory, but again, don't think we ever prayed and we never went to mass.

Being decidely agnostic, but decidedly apathetic about it since a very young age - I never took offense.

I don't think 96% of schools are Catholic buildings where children are indoctrinated. I really don't! None of my local schools are anyway, and there's 7 primary schools and 5 secondary just off the top of my head(D16/D14/Firhouse).

D4RK, judging by your post I'd guess you studied B.Ed in Mary Dry. Know 5 girls in 2nd and 3rd year doing it, haven't heard them moaning about compulsory religion(not that it doesn't happen, just haven't heard them complain about it) and none of them are in any way religious! Also know several more(girls, surprise surprise :pac:) doing Arts and ECCE and they definitely don't get force-fed compulsory religion

Meller

cheesefiend wrote: »

I think that the concept of most major religions are all the same. Be a good person. But that's just what little knowlege I have on them tells me. I call myself Christian because I believe in what Jesus said. He may not have miraculously healed people or been the actual son of God but if we took what he said as a set of rules to live by the world would be a better place.

This is fair enough, and it'd be great if this was the peaceful idea of religion that everyone abided by. However, I don't understand why people feel the need to live by the 'set of rules' dictated by some book that speaks of people and events that may or may not have existed/happened - can people not open their minds and live by their own morals? Are people incapable of deciding what is right/wrong for themselves? I don't need the Bible or the Qur'an, or the 'threat' of hell, to be motivated to lead a good life and I think it'd be healthier overall if people didn't, and used their own minds instead.

Pygmalion

D4RK ONION wrote: »

I the filthy atheist (NOT AN ATHEIST)

Being an agnostic doesn't mean you're not an atheist, it just means you don't claim to be certain.

I say this purely because a lot of people seem to use this phrase as though it's an alternative to theism or atheism, when it's actually a separate concept, not necessarily because I'm making assumptions about your particular situation.

kev9100

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

While I think it's great that somebody can believe so passionately in religion, I really could do without all the reading from the bible and asking me what I thought about God's Kingdom. I told them I was an athiest to get rid of them - this was a huge mistake. I thought they were trying to sell me something hence all the effort of standing there for 10 minutes reading the bible etc., but in the end they just gave me a free magazine - you could have just put it in the letterbox.

Why is that a remotely good thing? When people can believe so passionately in something that they refuse blood transfusions I would call that a very bad thing.

Meller

kev9100 wrote: »

Why is that a remotely good thing? When people can believe so passionately in something that they refuse blood transfusions I would call that a very bad thing.

I'd go a step further and say it's quite a terrifying thing. People believing so passionately in something with so little evidence - look at how easily brainwashing can be done. Nazism, terrorism - all down to the same thing.

Fad

randylonghorn wrote: »

A lot of atheists have actually.

Does that not imply though that only a belief in the supernatural / an afterlife is capable of giving a life meaning?

To me, what gives life meaning is what we do with it, the good (or evil) we do, how we treat others, the legacy we leave after us.

To take an extreme example, would you say that the life of Mahatma Gandhi had no meaning?

[A great Gandhi quote, by the way: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ]

I was pointing out that my interest in religion is not purely quoting the bible to point out inconsistencies (Although, I will say, the old testament is pretty hilarious at times)...

I was trying to get at that our existence is entirely insignificant, not that there is no meaning in my life. We are just quite evolved animals, and out existence is purely as a result of chance.

I really really dont like people quote Gandhi, I have no idea why, so frankly I'll just ignore any mention of him :P

cheesefiend

Meller wrote: »

This is fair enough, and it'd be great if this was the peaceful idea of religion that everyone abided by. However, I don't understand why people feel the need to live by the 'set of rules' dictated by some book that speaks of people and events that may or may not have existed/happened - can people not open their minds and live by their own morals? Are people incapable of deciding what is right/wrong for themselves? I don't need the Bible or the Qur'an, or the 'threat' of hell, to be motivated to lead a good life and I think it'd be healthier overall if people didn't, and used their own minds instead.

Well first does it need to have happened? Buddhists believe it is irrelevant whether or not Buddha really existed. It's the message that's important. That's the way I feel about Jesus. So what if he didn't exist? So what if it is just a myth created by some power hungry people? It's still a good message.

I agree, it would be brilliant if people could do this. Personally, if I took sat down and thought about the kind of person I really wanted to be it would be basically the same kind of person Jesus encouraged us to be; kind, honest, selfless, non judgemental. So for me the bible (the new testament really), just serves as a reminder, as inspiration to become that person.

I never said we should all follow the bible blindly, I understand that it has to be questioned. " A life unexamined is not worth living". I question certain aspects of it all the time. I take what I identify with and I use it.

randylonghorn

Tragedy wrote: »

None of that is religious or religion though?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The central tenets of the gospels have nothing to do with (the Christian) religion?

Tragedy wrote: »

In fact, most of it would be considered governmental social policy these days

Indeed, and in this part of the world much of what is now received social policy evolved from Christian thinking and was implemented and adapted by politicians who defined themselves as practising Christians. Ofc, there were other schools of thought which influenced it as well ... secular humanism has been around a long time, and socialism would have had a significant impact. In the last 20-30 years, Ireland and western Europe has become much more secular of course, but our society and social policy has a lot of its roots (though certainly not all) in Christian thought ... and not just the negative prejudiced stuff like anti-homosexuality laws (which I would argue derive more from "church" than core "christian" thought anyway) and which we have thankfully started to dismantle as society becomes more secular.

Tragedy wrote: »

... and I suspect people feel that a Government supporting the weak, needy and infirm abrogates their personal responsibility to do it.

I agree with you there, it's not always a good thing either.

Tragedy wrote: »

If you're going to believe in a religion, you might as well believe in one that links the decline in the worldwide number of pirates with global warming.

Oh, I never said I was religious ... I'm not, in fact. I'm vaguely agnostic with a sneaking suspicion that there may be an intelligence of some sort greater than man at play in the universe. I'm very cynical about churches / organised religions though. I never feel the need to define myself, but I probably fall vaguely into the secular humanist category ... ish.

Fad wrote: »

I really really dont like people quote Gandhi, I have no idea why, so frankly I'll just ignore any mention of him :P

Don't know why either, he was a very wise man.

cheesefiend wrote: »

That's the way I feel about Jesus. So what if he didn't exist?

Oh, there is historical evidence that Jesus existed.

What tends to be more contentious is whether he was the son of god.

TheCardHolder

I had a long post written out detailing my feelings on religion and my own personal beliefs (Weak agnosticist) and accidentaly clicked Back. FML.

Voltaire said 'If there were no God, it would have been necessary' to invent him. I believe this to be true to a certain extent, a lot of people look towards religion and God for some sort of meaning or justification of their lives and without it they would feel lost. It makes me furious when I see these very same people manipulated and tossed around by extremists leaders of certain religious organistations. Religon is a very very powerful tool and in the hands of the wrong person can cause tremendous damage.

Meller

cheesefiend wrote: »

Well first does it need to have happened? Buddhists believe it is irrelevant whether or not Buddha really existed. It's the message that's important. That's the way I feel about Jesus. So what if he didn't exist? So what if it is just a myth created by some power hungry people? It's still a good message.

I agree, it would be brilliant if people could do this. Personally, if I took sat down and thought about the kind of person I really wanted to be it would be basically the same kind of person Jesus encouraged us to be; kind, honest, selfless, non judgemental. So for me the bible (the new testament really), just serves as a reminder, as inspiration to become that person.

I never said we should all follow the bible blindly, I understand that it has to be questioned. " A life unexamined is not worth living". I question certain aspects of it all the time. I take what I identify with and I use it.

I hear a lot of people believing in similar to this, and I have no problem with it - but I also don't see the point of it at all. If you think the only purpose of religion existing is that it 'sends a good message', do you think it should be taken any more seriously than children's fables? They send good morals to kids, too, and they didn't happen. Luckily, people realise this about these stories, whereas many consider the ones in the Bible to be sacred - and if not that, at least of considerable more significance than a children's story.

I just don't understand the mindset of 'taking what you want and using it' - why bother with it at all, if you're capable of picking and choosing it from it in the first place?! If you only take what you 'want' from it, then you're not really using it at all - your 'set of rules' is going to end up being completely different? It seems very odd to me, and that the Bible is overall more trouble than it's worth, when we have the ability to decide these things for ourselves anyway.

randylonghorn

Tbh, whether people take their moral code from children's fables, or from the Gospel or the Talmud or the Qur'ān, or from secular humanism, or from a good upbringing, or a combination of those and others, I don't think it matters that much, once they have a well-developed moral code.

What worries me more is that so many people seem to grow up these days without a moral code at all, or one derived from their favourite American tv show!

kev9100

Meller wrote: »

I just don't understand the mindset of 'taking what you want and using it' - why bother with it at all, if you're capable of picking and choosing it from it in the first place?! If you only take what you 'want' from it, then you're not really using it at all - your 'set of rules' is going to end up being completely different? It seems very odd to me, and that the Bible is overall more trouble than it's worth, when we have the ability to decide these things for ourselves anyway.

This.

I know I'm coming across as quite anti-religion in this thread, but when I hear people say "I only use certain parts of the Bible" I think well, that's fine but by the very act of choosing the good bits you are showing yourself that you don't need religion to guide you. Just use your own instincts.

challengemaster

Randy: ah, that explains why you insist on leaving your 'legacy' on every bedpost you can find >_>

Funny you mention children's fables, actually, as Genesis is actually intended as such.

There's some funny arguements out there for the existance of a god, best i've heard lately though is this:

"Something had to create the earth, galaxies, etc etc... therefore a superior being exists"
"What created the superior being?"
"It created itself."

LOGIC FLAW: Then why could everything else not create itself?

I swear, I was pissing myself laughing reading it.

The extent some people believe to without any proof at all is not even funny.

randylonghorn

challengemaster wrote: »

Funny you mention children's fables, actually, as Genesis is actually intended as such.

The academic phrase you're looking for is "origin myth" ... but yeah, fable isn't that far off.

Even the theologians of *most* Christian churches see Genesis and most of the old testament as "allegorical" ... they tend to shy away from the word myth, but it means much the same.

Pygmalion

randylonghorn wrote: »

The academic phrase you're looking for is "origin myth" ... but yeah, fable isn't that far off.

Fables usually have a point, and give an important lesson on morality.
I think of the stories involving Jesus as Fables (the ones that are about his teachings and not magic anyway).
Genesis on the other hand does nothing like this, it's just a weird story with no real point. Maybe you could extract some moral lesson from it if you squinted hard enough but really why bother.

While posting this I went to wikipedia and it basically says a parable and a fable are the same thing but fables shy away from using humans, so I wasn't completely insane the make the connection.

randylonghorn

Pygmalion wrote: »

Fables usually have a point, and give an important lesson on morality.
I think of the stories involving Jesus as Fables (the ones that are about his teachings and not magic anyway).
Genesis on the other hand does nothing like this, it's just a weird story with no real point. Maybe you could extract some moral lesson from it if you squinted hard enough but really why bother.

Which is why I pointed out that "origin myth" is in fact the correct term ... though fable (as most people understand it and use it in everyday speech) isn't that far off!

And there are aspects of the true fable about Genesis, though I wouldn't actually categorise it as one ... Garden of Eden / Tree of Knowledge / punishment for doing what is forbidden, etc. etc.

TheCardHolder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL5WVecNdhk

Stephen Fry makes some pretty interesting points. Felt it was relevant to this thread!

Tragedy

randylonghorn wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The central tenets of the gospels have nothing to do with (the Christian) religion?

Religion is not a set of common beliefs and practices, if it was; C&H would be a religion. Religion 'is the belief in and worship of a god and/or gods, or a set of beliefs concerning the origin and purpose of the universe'.

As such, no, espousing common good, looking after the sick and needy etc etc isn't religious or related to religion, even if a religion supports or endorses it.

Indeed, and in this part of the world much of what is now received social policy evolved from Christian thinking and was implemented and adapted by politicians who defined themselves as practising Christians.

What history books have you been reading? This has absolutely no basis in fact, and I'd suggest you read up on the history of social policy in UK, France and Germany where modern socialism developed in opposition to Religion/Church. Also, if you look at most Philanthropists over the last few hundred years, you'll see little of religion in it.
Not to say Religion didn't play some part, but not much. Not much at all.

Ofc, there were other schools of thought which influenced it as well ... secular humanism has been around a long time, and socialism would have had a significant impact. In the last 20-30 years, Ireland and western Europe has become much more secular of course, but our society and social policy has a lot of its roots (though certainly not all) in Christian thought ...

Again, I would disagree. Most of the modern social policy in Ireland has developed against opposition of the church, especially in relation to the poor, children, education and health.

and not just the negative prejudiced stuff like anti-homosexuality laws (which I would argue derive more from "church" than core "christian" thought anyway)

You can't seperate church from christianity.

Oh, there is historical evidence that Jesus existed.

What tends to be more contentious is whether he was the son of god.

There is historical evidence that Jesus didn't exist. That he existed, but in a different country. That he existed, but in a different time. And another hundred things.
There is historical evidence for whatever you want, because sadly, we have feck all evidence from 2,000 years ago and what we do have is fragmented, from different cultures, from different sources, and generally well after the fact and second hand.
I don't think we'll ever know, definitively - but it doesn't really matter either.

MavisDavis

Discussing religion for long periods of time makes me tired, cranky and confused. I often describe myself as an atheist, but I'm not sure that's right. There are far too many labels out there. Bleh.

The gist of my "beliefs" (a loose term): I do not know if there is a higher power out there and, quite frankly, I don't care. I think that we have enough problems to deal with here on Earth without going into all that.

Humans requiring assistance > potential omnipotent powers.

That is all.

MavisDavis

MavisDavis wrote: »

Discussing religion for long periods of time makes me tired, cranky and confused. I often describe myself as an atheist, but I'm not sure that's right. There are far too many labels out there. Bleh.

The gist of my "beliefs" (a loose term): I do not know if there is a higher power out there and, quite frankly, I don't care. I think that we have enough problems to deal with here on Earth without going into all that.

Humans requiring assistance > potential omnipotent powers.

That is all.

This would be my view, if only for the fact that many humans require assistance because of religion, whether it be because of institutional abuse or religious war, or religion standing in the way of proper education.

norwegianwood

I dunno what I believe in really. I'm still pretending to be a Catholic to keep my mam happy but that ship sailed a long time ago. I guess I'm agnostic, I think there are some things out there we can't explain, but not necessarily a God, much less a benevolent father figure. I do envy people their faith sometimes, must be nice to have that feeling of security, or something to look forward to after death, but nah, religion makes no sense to me. An old man in the sky who wants us to blindly worship him, and will send anyone who breaks his rules to fiery torture for all eternity? If you believe in morals imo, there's no need for religion...

Grindylow

I don't know what I am.

I'd like to believe in a god. I don't follow any of the rule's of the church,etc, because they're totally stupid and irrelevant in today's society. If 'God' was such a loving person, then what's with the hatred of gay people,etc?

I'd like to believe that there is an afterlife, because I don't like the idea of not being 'around' and it's kinda scary.

Namlub

I'm agnostic (and secularist) - I don't think anyone can definitively say whether there is or isn't a God, and I respect the right everyone has to a belief either way; my nan's really religious and she's one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, so I could never be one of those people who just knocks anyone who's religious. Have to say though, I hate it when religious people try to shove their opinions down your throat, so I'm careful not to do the same to them. All the religion books I have in schools are insanely biased, which I find really frustrating, and today we had some guy come in who was a psychiatrist, but turned out to be more interested in talking about his epiphany and getting us all to pray while he promised that Jesus would then show himself to us in the next week. That's the type of thing that put me off religion in the first place tbh...

kev9100

Namlub wrote: »

Today we had some guy come in who was a psychiatrist, but turned out to be more interested in talking about his epiphany and getting us all to pray while he promised that Jesus would then show himself to us in the next week. That's the type of thing that put me off religion in the first place tbh...

Even in our horrendous education system, I'm surprised someone like that was allowed to come in and give a talk...

QueenOfLeon

kev9100 wrote: »

Even in our horrendous education system, I'm surprised someone like that was allowed to come in and give a talk...

Too many things are given a religious spin in certain schools. In TY we had a few talks from various people and organisations. One was about unplanned pregnancy, and we got every, and i mean EVERY single option except abortion. It was like the elephant in the room :P Someone eventually brought it up and the woman said she couldn't talk about it, they didn't condone it and it went completely against the ethos of the school. Another talk about alcohol put more emphasis on the terrible crime that is breaking the pledge you made to God than the fact its illegal to drink under 18.