Toney should not stoop to life in a cage

bret69

Barry McGuigan's latest:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-sport/boxing/2010/08/28/toney-should-not-stoop-to-life-in-a-cage-115875-22519948/

ironictoaster

I respect the athleticism and strength of the fighters and the professional way they put on a show. But it is not the noble art.

I stopped reading there. I'm not surprised a former Champion of boxing does not like MMA though.

scudzilla

bret69 wrote: »

Barry McGuigan's latest:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-sport/boxing/2010/08/28/toney-should-not-stoop-to-life-in-a-cage-115875-22519948/

ironictoaster wrote: »

I stopped reading there. I'm not surprised a former Champion of boxing does not like MMA though.

I beat ya, i stopped readin at the red bit

Minstrel27

Newsflash: Boxer not as good as Mixed Martial Artist at MMA. It really was a pointless bout though.

Anakin.S

'He'll be getting a few quid for the bother but ultimately at what cost? He is doing nothing for his credibility or that of his sport.'

'All this demonstrates is the incompatibility of boxing and MMA'

'It is a shame the various boxing authorities cannot come together and ban this kind of activity.'



IMO Barry McGuigan shouldn't comment on a sport he doesn't understand or respect

_oveless

He actually seems less rabidly against mma than before, he's just questioning (rightly to be honest) the reasoning behind the fight, as it was not much different than one of the freakshow fights pride used to have.

seadnamac

Besides the headline (which was probably not his doing) I didn't really find anything wrong with the article. People should stop being so touchy.

bret69

seadnamac wrote: »

Besides the headline (which was probably not his doing) I didn't really find anything wrong with the article. People should stop being so touchy.

The article is by and large accurate but it's very condescending towards MMA fighters.

"James Toney should not stoop to life in a cage”

"A ring legend being thrown about by a bloke who would not last 30 seconds under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules - it's nonsense”.

"It (MMA) is not the noble art”.

“If boxing is not to dilute its standing and credibility as a sport it has to do more to protect itself from this kind of malarkey”.

Hail 2 Da Thief

seadnamac wrote: »

Besides the headline (which was probably not his doing) I didn't really find anything wrong with the article. People should stop being so touchy.

Agreed! He's just voicing a similar opinion to what most MMA fans thought about the match-up between Toney & Couture.

Having said that, McGuigan has made nothing but derogatory remarks about MMA in the past!

cletus

bret69 wrote: »

"A ring legend being thrown about by a bloke who would not last 30 seconds under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules - it's nonsense”.

He's right on both accounts

bret69 wrote: »

"It (MMA) is not the noble art”.

It's not

bret69 wrote: »

“If boxing is not to dilute its standing and credibility as a sport it has to do more to protect itself from this kind of malarkey”.

Same could be said of mma

Jason McCabe

The big differnce is that Randy has the sense not to take a Pro boxing match with Toney.

Boxing is a great sport but we all know it's one dimensional.

As for Barry McGuigan's condensending attitude towards the sport. He's entitled to his opinion but he has to remember boxing had the same naysayers in its early days.

I wonder has he actually watched many matches or is it his perceived opinion having seen some highlights of the early years.

DrPhilG

I remember Wayne McCullagh doing a Q&A at a UFC event and he shed some light on McGuigan's bitterness. Barry accused Wayne of being a traitor to the sport of boxing because he works for the UFC. Totally ripped into Wayne for it. Wayne said he used to idolise McGuigan but has no time for him since that.

lafors

He should stick to his cooking programmes

MrStuffins

In fairness, if you read the article, everything he says is true.

McGuigan is actually a fan of MMA. I've heard him speak on the subject many times and saw him at the Dublin show.

Although the tone of the "article" might seem a bit "Those MMA lads haven't a clue, Boxing is King", nothing of what he says is false. Toney shouldn't have been in there, he IS fat and past it, Randy would not last 2 seconds in a Boxing Ring with him and Toney could have knocked Randy out.

He maybe could've written the article in a neutral fashion though!

Package

"If Toney lands the first punch on the button the fight is over. Ray Mercer showed that when he stepped into the cage last year against former UFC heavyweight champion Tim Sylvia"

not exactly the same,,, if my nephew of 5 stood on a ladder to hit Tim Silvia he would knock him out.. big glass jaw and height, thats all.

Bodhisopha

Jason McCabe wrote: »

The big differnce is that Randy has the sense not to take a Pro boxing match with Toney.

Boxing is a great sport but we all know it's one dimensional.

As for Barry McGuigan's condensending attitude towards the sport. He's entitled to his opinion but he has to remember boxing had the same naysayers in its early days.

I wonder has he actually watched many matches or is it his perceived opinion having seen some highlights of the early years.

I've got to be honest, i did not know that.

Professey Chin

Package wrote: »

not exactly the same,,, if my nephew of 5 stood on a ladder to hit Tim Silvia he would knock him out.. big glass jaw and height, thats all.

Where did it come out of that Sylvia has a glass jaw?
Mercer is the only person to knock him out.All his other losses are by decision or submission

bret69

cletus wrote: »

He's right on both accounts



It's not




Same could be said of mma

The point I was making was that what he is saying is NOT factually inaccurate but his tone towards MMA is condescending.

MrStuffins

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I've got to be honest, i did not know that.

You haven't been watching close enough.

cletus

bret69 wrote: »

"A ring legend being thrown about by a bloke who would not last 30 seconds under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules - it's nonsense”.

"It (MMA) is not the noble art”.

“If boxing is not to dilute its standing and credibility as a sport it has to do more to protect itself from this kind of malarkey”.

I see no condesension in these quotes, only a)facts, and b)dismay that a future boxing hall of famer is getting involved in a frankly ridiculous bout, especially from the point of view of a boxer

If the same article appeard in an mma mag, I dont think people would have a problem with it really, its just that its being viewed through the lense of McGuigan's previos comments and general stance re mma

Mouthalmighty

Did anyone notice the difference between Coutures ability to talk and Toneys total lack thereof. I mean that lad is so punchdrunk he needs subtitles Couture on the other was eloquent and one could understand him.

No really boxing is safer than mma

_oveless

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

Did anyone notice the difference between Coutures ability to talk and Toneys total lack thereof. I mean that lad is so punchdrunk he needs subtitles Couture on the other was eloquent and one could understand him.

No really boxing is safer than mma

Unless Couture has had 80+ fights it's not really the same is it?

bret69

cletus wrote: »

I see no condesension in these quotes, only a)facts, and b)dismay that a future boxing hall of famer is getting involved in a frankly ridiculous bout, especially from the point of view of a boxer

If the same article appeard in an mma mag, I dont think people would have a problem with it really, its just that its being viewed through the lense of McGuigan's previos comments and general stance re mma

When he says things like "MMA is not the noble art", don't you think he is implying Boxing is somehow superior to MMA? When he says "this bloke would not last 30 seconds..." and "stoop to life in a cage", you don't think that's implying Boxing is somehow superior to MMA?

I don't know, like I said I'm not arguing about any of his facts but merely his tone towards MMA. I think it's quite clearly condescending.

Bodhisopha

MrStuffins wrote: »

You haven't been watching close enough.

Will you explain it to me, please?

seadnamac

bret69 wrote: »

When he says things like "MMA is not the noble art", don't you think he is implying Boxing is somehow superior to MMA? When he says "this bloke would not last 30 seconds..." and "stoop to life in a cage", you don't think that's implying Boxing is somehow superior to MMA?

I don't know, like I said I'm not arguing about any of his facts but merely his tone towards MMA. I think it's quite clearly condescending.

'The noble art' is an old metaphor for boxing that has been used for decades.

Whats wrong with him saying a Mixed Martial Artist wouldn't last 30 seconds in a boxing match? It's a reasonable opinion and much the same was said about the boxer in an MMA fight in the lead up to Saturday night.

'The stoop to life in the cage' bit is from the headline which may have been written by the editor.

I've read it a couple of times now and I still can't see anything wrong with it (besides the headline). I think you're reading too much into it.

Trashbat

seadnamac wrote: »

Whats wrong with him saying a Mixed Martial Artist wouldn't last 30 seconds in a boxing match? It's a reasonable opinion and much the same was said about the boxer in an MMA fight in the lead up to Saturday night.

Nothing, but a mixed martial artist isn't disputing that, boxers constantly are (the other way round, and Barry is in this article)

As far as I can remember, very few MMA fighters, bar Anderson Silva (who does have a couple of Pro-boxing fights on his record) ever make any claim to the contrary.

The fact is, many boxers have criticised MMA, but finally a big name stepped up, and was found to be severely lacking. I think boxing should actually live up to its noble name and admit that there are different combat sports out there, and the market is big enough for fans of both.

Jason McCabe

I don't care what anyone says. Reading that article McGuigan implies that MMA is thugish and lacks technique unlike of course the sport he was involved in.

he has no right to tell Toney what he should or should not do. What if wrestlers were told not to do MMA or BJJ guys the same?

I like the man but disagree strongly with his stance. If the boxers were in there battering the $hit out of MMA fighters I think his attitude towards them stepping up would change very quickly.

MrStuffins

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Will you explain it to me, please?

No problem.

In Mixed Martial Arts, there are many dimensions. When you stand on your feet, you have the threat of many "Dimensions"

• Fists
• Elbows (and other parts of arm)
• Feet
• Knees
• Clinch
• Takedowns

Inside the clinch you have to worry about most of the same.

If you've been taken down/have taken someone down, you have to worry about

• Ground and Pound
• (Blocking) passes to more dominant positions
• Trying to escape/Preventing escape
• (Blocking) submissions
• Stalling

This is just a pretty general and not so thought-out summary!

In Boxing, you there is ONE dimension, combatants can only throw punches with the fist part of their hand. That is all.

One dimension

seadnamac

MrStuffins wrote: »

No problem.

In Mixed Martial Arts, there are many dimensions. When you stand on your feet, you have the threat of many "Dimensions"

• Fists
• Elbows (and other parts of arm)
• Feet
• Knees
• Clinch
• Takedowns

Inside the clinch you have to worry about most of the same.

If you've been taken down/have taken someone down, you have to worry about

• Ground and Pound
• (Blocking) passes to more dominant positions
• Trying to escape/Preventing escape
• (Blocking) submissions
• Stalling

This is just a pretty general and not so thought-out summary!

In Boxing, you there is ONE dimension, combatants can only throw punches with the fist part of their hand. That is all.

One dimension

I don't think you really understand the term one-dimensional to be honest. There are many "dimensions" as you would call them to the sport of boxing. Footwork, defence, speed, agility, brawling, boxing, counter punching, inside fighting, outside fighting, stepping in and out, head movement, rolling with punches, fainting, jabs, power shots etc etc etc.

You have just stated the difference between the two sports and fairly poorly as you summed up boxing in one line.

MrStuffins

seadnamac wrote: »

I don't think you really understand the term one-dimensional to be honest. There are many "dimensions" as you would call them to the sport of boxing. Footwork, defence, speed, agility, brawling, boxing, counter punching, inside fighting, outside fighting, stepping in and out, head movement, rolling with punches, fainting, jabs, power shots etc etc etc.

You have just stated the difference between the two sports and fairly poorly as you summed up boxing in one line.

Pfffft!

Most of the things you describe as "dimensions" are just clutching at straws.

And to say i don't understand the term "one-dimensional" is ridiculous!

The fact of the matter is, where a boxer can only use the fist part of his hand to attack, a Mixed Martial Artist can attack with many different parts of the body.

Edit: I'm also a fan of Boxing, but it's not hard to see that Boxing is one-dimensional. Most of the things you list are things it is essential to be good at to perfect that one dimension of punching with your fist.

bret69

seadnamac wrote: »

'The noble art' is an old metaphor for boxing that has been used for decades.

Whats wrong with him saying a Mixed Martial Artist wouldn't last 30 seconds in a boxing match? It's a reasonable opinion and much the same was said about the boxer in an MMA fight in the lead up to Saturday night.

'The stoop to life in the cage' bit is from the headline which may have been written by the editor.

I've read it a couple of times now and I still can't see anything wrong with it (besides the headline). I think you're reading too much into it.

The thing is he didn't say "A mixed martial artist wouldn't last 30 seconds in a boxing match". That sounds respectful.

And I take your point that "the noble art" has been used as a metaphor for decades, as have other things like "the sweet science". But he used "the noble art" in place of the word "boxing" or anything else on purpose. "This is not boxing" doesn't sound condescending.

Finally it doesn't really matter to me if it was McGuigan or not who wrote the headline. My point is still the same, which is the tone of the article as a whole is condescending to MMA.

bret69

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I don't care what anyone says. Reading that article McGuigan implies that MMA is thugish and lacks technique unlike of course the sport he was involved in.

he has no right to tell Toney what he should or should not do. What if wrestlers were told not to do MMA or BJJ guys the same?

I like the man but disagree strongly with his stance. If the boxers were in there battering the $hit out of MMA fighters I think his attitude towards them stepping up would change very quickly.

Totally agree. And we know from Barry's previous articles that he really does think MMA lacks technique.

adamski8

seadnamac wrote: »

I don't think you really understand the term one-dimensional to be honest. There are many "dimensions" as you would call them to the sport of boxing. Footwork, defence, speed, agility, brawling, boxing, counter punching, inside fighting, outside fighting, stepping in and out, head movement, rolling with punches, fainting, jabs, power shots etc etc etc.

You have just stated the difference between the two sports and fairly poorly as you summed up boxing in one line.

There's boxing in boxing?:eek:
i guess you could argue about the definition of one dimensional with anything. I could say darts is one dimensional as its just throwing a dart at a target over and over again but then people would say there is positioning of the body, wrist work etc etc. and same goes for any sport!
but as sports goes id say boxing is a sport that doesnt have too many dimensions!

seadnamac

adamski8 wrote: »

There's boxing in boxing?:eek:
i guess you could argue about the definition of one dimensional with anything. I could say darts is one dimensional as its just throwing a dart at a target over and over again but then people would say there is positioning of the body, wrist work etc etc. and same goes for any sport!
but as sports goes id say boxing is a sport that doesnt have too many dimensions!

I thought someone might pick up on that! Boxing here is used as a term opposite to brawling. You will often hear boxing matches being advertised as 'The Boxer .vs. The Brawler'.

adamski8

seadnamac wrote: »

I thought someone might pick up on that! Boxing here is used as a term opposite to brawling. You will often hear boxing matches being advertised as 'The Boxer .vs. The Brawler'.

was just joking