Greens favour wind-down of Anglo

Scofflaw

This is simple, the greens choose one stag hunt over the interests of the irish people.

I remember quite clearly seeing on the telly before the vote on NAMA a green party member saying that they couldnt care less about the economy, NAMA or anglo. All they were interested in was banning stag and other hunting.
This is the mindset we are dealing with.

I'm not sure why that's surprising. It's like being surprised that Sinn Fein think ending partition is more important than the economy.

slightly mystified,
Scofflaw

Sand

Too late Greens, two years too late. Die quietly now.

Sand

@MrDarcy

they must be throwing up in their coffins in Glasnevin, at what is going on here, every square foot of the country they died for, being prostituted out to the loss of the nations future generations, to the betterment of some of the lowest form of scumbags that would put Trevalyn to absolute shame...

I think youre being a little harsh on Trevalyn. He was a very capable administrator. Sure, he hated the Irish and believed that the famine was gods judgement on the Irish, but the worst he could be accused of was not bothering to save Ireland. The boys we currently have probably really are trying their best.

flutered

Sand wrote: »

@MrDarcy


I think youre being a little harsh on Trevalyn. He was a very capable administrator. Sure, he hated the Irish and believed that the famine was gods judgement on the Irish, but the worst he could be accused of was not bothering to save Ireland. The boys we currently have probably really are trying their best.

tounge in cheek i hope.

Sand

I think we need to request irony tags.

Liam Byrne

Sand wrote: »

The boys we currently have probably really are trying their best.

Trying their best to WHAT, though ?

fontanalis

Don't think there'll be much winding down if they're finishing their new HQ.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0902/angloirish.html

dan_d

Seriously doubt that will actually house Anglo.All that's happened is that the formality of the planning permission has been approved...let's face it, the DDDA and Liam Carroll are not in a position to finish that building, let alone for Anglo to use it.

See link below from today's papers...Europe appears to be putting the ball firmly in the Government's court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0903/1224278128283.html

Anglo and its debts are our problem whether its wound down or not, its nationalised, people working in the bank are being transferred into NAMA

The boys club of politicians, developers & bankers won back in 2008 the taxpayer is only starting to realise this now. Tens of thousands appeared in protests against the pay cuts, feck all against NAMA or the Anglo bail out. While the boys club is rotten to the core in another way we get what we deserve collectively

Sand

I dont get the collective responsibility lark to be honest. Regulating Anglo-Irish was the role of the Financial Regulator.

Before anyone tells me it is the role of the Irish public to take the blame I need to see the Financial Regulator take some hurt...other than a golden handshake and an enviable pension...I dont see that.

Same for Fianna Fail...only a fraction of people voted for them. Let alone the proportion of taxpayers.

Theres this myth out there that were all to blame.

That nice. Sharing responsibility. A community effort. We'll all put our shoulder to the wheel.

Unfortunately, when times were good, we were not all sharing the fruits. A small coterie was. Good for them.

I'm an economic liberal. If you take the risks, take the profits, with my blessings. But by the same measure, take the losses.

If Im a shareholder for your losses, then I want my dividends too.

End of the day - Ireland is going to default. Were going to default on Anglo. Were going to default on NAMA. We have to. Any other course will send us to 3rd world style development. The ECB have said bailing out Anglo is our problem. Its not. Its the problem of Anglo's creditors. Let the ECB worry about what will happen if Anglos creditors dont get paid.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Anglo and its debts are our problem whether its wound down or not, its nationalised, people working in the bank are being transferred into NAMA

The boys club of politicians, developers & bankers won back in 2008 the taxpayer is only starting to realise this now. Tens of thousands appeared in protests against the pay cuts, feck all against NAMA or the Anglo bail out. While the boys club is rotten to the core in another way we get what we deserve collectively

Very true.
More people demonstrated outside the green party conference in Waterford ?? about them banning stag hunting in Meath than against their complicity in NAMA and the bank guarantees. :rolleyes:

Sand wrote: »

I dont get the collective responsibility lark to be honest. Regulating Anglo-Irish was the role of the Financial Regulator.

Before anyone tells me it is the role of the Irish public to take the blame I need to see the Financial Regulator take some hurt...other than a golden handshake and an enviable pension...I dont see that.

Same for Fianna Fail...only a fraction of people voted for them. Let alone the proportion of taxpayers.

Theres this myth out there that were all to blame.

That nice. Sharing responsibility. A community effort. We'll all put our shoulder to the wheel.

Unfortunately, when times were good, we were not all sharing the fruits. A small coterie was. Good for them.

I'm an economic liberal. If you take the risks, take the profits, with my blessings. But by the same measure, take the losses.

If Im a shareholder for your losses, then I want my dividends too.

End of the day - Ireland is going to default. Were going to default on Anglo. Were going to default on NAMA. We have to. Any other course will send us to 3rd world style development. The ECB have said bailing out Anglo is our problem. Its not. Its the problem of Anglo's creditors. Let the ECB worry about what will happen if Anglos creditors dont get paid.

We are not all to blame for

• the bubble
• over borrowing for sh**e property and consumer goods
• being complicit in infalting and keeping the housing bubble going by buying into it
• allowing the banks recklessly over lend to one industry
• the rampant price hiking that occurred during the bubble
• the current budget deficit
• the tax breaks for housing, construction and property investment & speculation.

But we are to blame for ...

• not getting off our ar**es and running the government out of office as happened in Iceland.
• for allowing our government sign away our future by bailing out these incompetent and insolvent banks
• allowing our government to waste money on pay offs and golden handshakes for inept negligent incompetent state employees that oversaw and allowed state bodies fail in their duty of care to the economic wellbeing of the state.
• allowing our government roll over and not take immediate and decisive action against bankers and developers
• for allowing our government saunter along in late 2007 and 2008 without taking immediate action to start righting our current budget deficits
• for allowing our government walk all over us by arrogantly wasting taxpayers money through overly generous expenses and perks.

We are collectively responsible for not hounding the self serving scum that we have the misfortune to call our government off the political scene as would most other decent nations have done by now.

We are all too easily broken down on grounds of public versus private, old versus young, rural versus urban.

The last number of years provide more than adequate explanation as to why the English/British were able to hang on this island for so long.

ff managed to expertly learn to play the same game.

Laminations

jmayo wrote: »

We are collectively responsible for not hounding the self serving scum that we have the misfortune to call our government off the political scene as would most other decent nations have done by now.

You are correct but there are simple psychological explanations for our lack of action. Solomon Asch's idea of conformity, nobody wats to stand out from the crowd, like students reluctance to put their hand up and ask a question. Worse still we have a possible bystander effect, where we all see what is wrong but we don't intervene because we think someone else will. We all have our own responsibilities and problems so protesting is as appealing as going to the aid of a victim being attacked, we should get involved but we don't usually.

So why were Iceland so different?

Well lastly and sadly we have a national learned helplessness where we've seen our actions in the past having no effect and so we've given up trying - this is Ireland, what do you expect? - as we all say

jmayo

Laminations wrote: »

You are correct but there are simple psychological explanations for our lack of action. Solomon Asch's idea of conformity, nobody wats to stand out from the crowd, like students reluctance to put their hand up and ask a question. Worse still we have a possible bystander effect, where we all see what is wrong but we don't intervene because we think someone else will. We all have our own responsibilities and problems so protesting is as appealing as going to the aid of a victim being attacked, we should get involved but we don't usually.

So why were Iceland so different?

Well lastly and sadly we have a national learned helplessness where we've seen our actions in the past having no effect and so we've given up trying - this is Ireland, what do you expect? - as we all say

True enough.
Speaking of students it appears to be a world wide phenomenon where students are no longer the radicals they once were, as in back in the 60s for instance.
Students today are more concerned with getting jobs, climbing the corporate ladder and personal enjoyment than in being the radicals they once were.

I don't know if Irish students were ever that radical ?
I know in the 80s we were so dammed worried about getting a job that it appeared to subsume or overarch all other concerns.

I think there will be something that eventually be a straw that breaks the camels back with the way things are going.
A national default, IMF or rather ECB arriving making massive cuts just might be it.
If the Irish people are eventaully pushed into a mass nationwide protest, I believe it would turn very nasty.

Believe it or not I think the leaders in any Irish mass protest revolts will be farmers.

In that event gormley et al better watch out.

Laminations

Hopefully jmayo, I just can't fathom what shape such a straw will take, it really shouldve been NAMA that broke the camels back. The reason I think we have less activism now especially amongst students is continued capitalist hegemony. We have become more interested in the next H&M sale, the latest coke advert and the newest iPod to care much about politics, that and a measure of learned helplessness where protests are seen to be pointless

ei.sdraob

Laminations wrote: »

Hopefully jmayo, I just can't fathom what shape such a straw will take, it really shouldve been NAMA that broke the camels back. The reason I think we have less activism now especially amongst students is continued capitalist hegemony. We have become more interested in the next H&M sale, the latest coke advert and the newest iPod to care much about politics, that and a measure of learned helplessness where protests are seen to be pointless

NAMA and bank bailouts should have broke the camels back,
but dont forget that more than half the workforce effectively dont pay any direct taxes (yet), and the rest do not comprehend that they will pay indirectly via decreased services (hospital closures, schools falling apart etc)

Ignorance has more to do with the population failing to comprehend what has happened in last 2 years (the posters on these forums know well what has happened, but we are a minority), but I do think things are changing and its starting to sink in, for example I was surprised my mother talking about things getting worse and she was never before concerned about economy and politics, so maybe theres hope come the next election in people crucifying FF and the Greens, tho I have to say the opposition (FG,Lab,SF) dont look much better


Anyways there are two ways for a citizen to control government here (pity we dont have guns eh?), using the ballot and using the wallet. Not being granted an election (grumble grumble) leaves only the option of using the wallet as many have done by going North, and as taxation will increase and it will to pay for the mess people would do their best to avoid them too...

jmayo

Laminations wrote: »

Hopefully jmayo, I just can't fathom what shape such a straw will take, it really shouldve been NAMA that broke the camels back. The reason I think we have less activism now especially amongst students is continued capitalist hegemony. We have become more interested in the next H&M sale, the latest coke advert and the newest iPod to care much about politics, that and a measure of learned helplessness where protests are seen to be pointless

I know NAMA should realistically have done it, but as ei.sdraob points out below there are a whole tranche of people who don't have a clue and much worse don't care until it directly affects them and very visibly so at that.

True the corporate giants have learnt to capture them younger and younger.
I have an interest in machinery/cars/anything mechanical to be honest and it has become so noticable how all the tractor manufacturers are involved in branding kiddies toys.
You can now not just get diecast models, ride on tractors but childrens overalls, baseball caps and cuddly toys from all the major manufacturers like John Deere, Massey Ferguson, JCB, Class, etc, etc.
They are attempting to change the mindset of kids of 3 and 4 and enforce the brand placement at that stage.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

NAMA and bank bailouts should have broke the camels back,
but dont forget that more than half the workforce effectively dont pay any direct taxes (yet), and the rest do not comprehend that they will pay indirectly via decreased services (hospital closures, schools falling apart etc)

Ignorance has more to do with the population failing to comprehend what has happened in last 2 years (the posters on these forums know well what has happened, but we are a minority), but I do think things are changing and its starting to sink in, for example I was surprised my mother talking about things getting worse and she was never before concerned about economy and politics, so maybe theres hope come the next election in people crucifying FF and the Greens, tho I have to say the opposition (FG,Lab,SF) dont look much better

Anyways there are two ways for a citizen to control government here (pity we dont have guns eh?), using the ballot and using the wallet. Not being granted an election (grumble grumble) leaves only the option of using the wallet as many have done by going North, and as taxation will increase and it will to pay for the mess people would do their best to avoid them too...

It is unbelievable to think how NAMA really made it through.
You may claim a lot of people here know how bad things are, but you still get posters towing the government line and spinning for all they are worth.
Now they are either very deluded in their loyalty or have a vested interest in making sure that the current course of action is maintained ?

I liken the attitude of some people to the economic collpase, the huge current deficit and the banking collapse with it's subsequent mascinations, to something that became obvious to me upto 10 years ago with the health service.

People only start giving a sh** when it affects them and affects them very personally.
How people could continue to vote for a government that created and fostered the bastard child of the HSE is beyond me ?
Yet lots of people did, probably safe in the knowledge they didn't have to suffer the awful consequences of it.
It amazes me that harney, drumm and some more of the mandrins within that organisation have not been shot at some stage.

For all the talk of Irish patriotism, we are only ever really patriotic when it involves a sport of some sort or "them across the water".
A lot of that is down to the way we educate our young (lack of any real instilling of civic knowledge and pride) and how we still harbour an attitude that there is an us and them, who are usually in some mythical system in Dublin.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

I dont get the collective responsibility lark to be honest.

think about it this way......who will suffer who will bear the brunt of this?
Those same people should have had more cop on

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

think about it this way......who will suffer who will bear the brunt of this?
Those same people should have had more cop on

Are you trying to suggest that I won't bear any brunt ?

Think again.

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest that I won't bear any brunt ?

Think again.

Im saying everyone will bear the brunt

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

Im saying everyone will bear the brunt

No. You said "Those same people should have had more cop on".

What about those of us who DID have cop on ?

flutered

Deleted User wrote: »

Im saying everyone will bear the brunt

that is schite, you are wrong, the top of the foodchain will not be affected, earlier this year the top civil servants had their pay cut abolished, the dail voted not to accept a pay cut, the hospital consultants told their obese boss what they wanted, she gave into them, the top five earners in this green and unpleasent land do not pay tax, the fingers guy from mayo, how will he pay for this, as for that shyster seanie how will he pay for the mess he spawned, what about that clown cowen how will he be made pay, yeah ted, with a fancy pension and entitlements, that is how they will pay for it, it is us down lower in the food chain that have and always will pay for the mess of others.

Welease

Sand wrote: »

I dont get the collective responsibility lark to be honest. Regulating Anglo-Irish was the role of the Financial Regulator.

Before anyone tells me it is the role of the Irish public to take the blame I need to see the Financial Regulator take some hurt...other than a golden handshake and an enviable pension...I dont see that.

Same for Fianna Fail...only a fraction of people voted for them. Let alone the proportion of taxpayers.

Theres this myth out there that were all to blame.

That nice. Sharing responsibility. A community effort. We'll all put our shoulder to the wheel.

Unfortunately, when times were good, we were not all sharing the fruits. A small coterie was. Good for them.

I'm an economic liberal. If you take the risks, take the profits, with my blessings. But by the same measure, take the losses.

If Im a shareholder for your losses, then I want my dividends too.

End of the day - Ireland is going to default. Were going to default on Anglo. Were going to default on NAMA. We have to. Any other course will send us to 3rd world style development. The ECB have said bailing out Anglo is our problem. Its not. Its the problem of Anglo's creditors. Let the ECB worry about what will happen if Anglos creditors dont get paid.

Isn't that a bit simplistic?

Are your wages not considerably higher since pre-boom? they must be.. we went from cheap economy to expensive economy?
If you are unemployed, did your benefits not increase drastically?

In short, you benefitted.. maybe not as much as others.. and you may end up with a bigger hangover than others... but that's capitalism.. a game the Irish were happy to play until a couple of years ago..

Sand

@Welease

but that's capitalism

Capitalism implies you risk your capital, you take the gains and you take the losses.

Surprisingly enough, I dont own any bank shares or bank bonds. The people who do, they should take the losses.

Thats capitalism. What weve got going on here is socialised losses, privatised gains.

@jmayo

But we are to blame for ...

* not getting off our ar**es and running the government out of office as happened in Iceland.
* for allowing our government sign away our future by bailing out these incompetent and insolvent banks
* allowing our government to waste money on pay offs and golden handshakes for inept negligent incompetent state employees that oversaw and allowed state bodies fail in their duty of care to the economic wellbeing of the state.
* allowing our government roll over and not take immediate and decisive action against bankers and developers
* for allowing our government saunter along in late 2007 and 2008 without taking immediate action to start righting our current budget deficits
* for allowing our government walk all over us by arrogantly wasting taxpayers money through overly generous expenses and perks.

There is'nt a "we" here.

We have and had competing insider groups who at all times were most concerned with saving themselves. Look at the trade unions - they are a ready made structure for protest against government policy. The government knows this, so they were co-opted into the Social Partnership charade, invited to join the insiders club. Now they were in the tent, pissing out. They were never going to rock the boat, concerned only with holding on to whatever they could - not with actually demanding a proper and fair policy on the crisis.

What other social organisations were going act to guide and lead political revolt? The Church? Labour? IBEC? Bono? Amhran Nua or some other "Lets start a new political party!!!!" poster on boards.ie?

Lets face it, the government has *never* sought a mandate for the policies it has taken post September 2008. It has refused to hold elections for open seats for fear of the judgement of the people. The Greens spat in the face of public opinion when they sold the country out for a few bicycle paths. The views of the people have been clear - they want a General Election, they want to be consulted on the policy to be applied. The political establishment, the insiders, have simply ignored them. Until then, there is no *we*.

Short of an actual armed campaign trying to murder Fianna Fail TDs until they agreed to hold a general election, what should the Irish people have done? Tried to embarrass the likes of Wille O'Dea? A man who still doesnt accept he was wrong?

Sandvich

It's true most people benefited, but some far more than others. Granted it came back to bite some in the ass, not so much others.

flutered

the people that will have to carry the can are the people on the bottom of of the food chain, as usual, i was speaking to a dispicable feckin failures tds secetary recently i asked what are we going to to about the recession and unemployment, i was told what was always done emigration, it always worked and will work again this time. so what they really mean is theose with connections to them will have jobs, people without connections will have to leave, then who is left to vote only friends of the dispicable feckin failures (ff).