How far Do You Go...?

Mick Rice

This isn't meant to be a controversial question and hope it doesn't come accross as such, but its a question I've often posed for myself. That is, how far do I go with vegetarianism before I say 'enough!'

At a very simple level this might mean that someone would abstain from eating all meat but wear leather shoes because they don't want or feel the need to go that extra step. Another person might not eat meat, or wear leather, but will take medicine that they are aware does not come in a vegetarian form. I'd guess there are thousands of different 'enough' points out there and I certainly don't intend to pass judgement on anyone. I know that we all make our own way on issues like this, but because most vegetarians have thought fairly carefully about these topics, I wondered how others have come to their own personal positions.

For myself, my boundaries are not very clearly defined and seem to shift a little with time. I'm reasonably new to all this (three years in May) and don't have it all worked out by any means. For example, I don't eat any meat at all, and will always seek out vegetarian friendly versions of products like cheese when I can, but don't actively check the status of those same foodstuffs in a restaurant.

I've chosen not to eat meat not for health reasons, but because I don't want to be complicit in the taking of life just so that I can eat. Every now and then I come accross situations that make me feel very much out of step with how others behave. An example of this was when we discovered recently that one of my children had head-lice. My wife was managing the situation but one evening she asked me to help to fine-comb my daughter's hair. She asked me to examine the hair closely and if I came accross any lice to just kill them between my fingers. I couldn't do it and wriggled out of it but I know she thought I was loopers.

At what point do you say enough?

sweet-rasmus

Indeed, could be a contraversial thread, but everyone has their boundaries. True, all medicines are tested on animals, so with medicine it only goes from bad to worse. If I have a headache do use panadol that is in a sachet, so there is no shellac/gelatine related to the capsule/pill coating. But I am sure I've taken other medication in the past which had ingredients that would make me sad

Glues are something which annoy me. I don't know about the origin of most glue types... and there are too many for me to want to look into that one. And inks; I heard they aren't good. I got a chocolate bar recently that had a symbol saying that vegetable inks were used in the production of the packaging. New to me!

rantyface

Lots of wine has been filtered through fish bones but the labels rarely say whether it has or hasn't been.

I love wine.

I don't like when people use the same gloves/knives for my sandwiches when I get them out and I sometimes claim I'm allergic to eggs and ask them to wipe the knife. I can eat sandwiches with traces of ham and tuna, but I really don't enjoy it.

I don't kill spiders in the house but I don't really care about them. I'm sure every time I wash my clothes I kill thousands of dust mites.

sweet-rasmus

I sometimes claim I'm allergic to eggs and ask them to wipe the knife.

Nice thinking! Most sandwich places will change the knife and cutting board/surface if you ask nicely and let them know you are veggie.

Aoifey!

Well for me my boundaries are getting stricter as I get older. When I was younger I was vegetarian but my family never was, so trusting my mother I would trust what I was eating had no meat in it. However, she had no idea cheese could be non-vegetarian and had never even heard of Gelatine. So for me I'm still forming them as I find out more information about things.

entropi

For me, I like to actively check what ingredients are in food I buy from shops/supermarkets (yes I'm a label reader) and when eating out, I normally only go for options which could have very little/no contact with utensils containing meat particles.

I also refuse medication unless it's serious...if I happen to get ill in any way normally (which is rare since I turned veggie almost 4 years ago) then I'll fight it naturally thanks to a decent immune system. When it comes to personal hygiene products, I check that toothpaste doesnt have gelatine in it, use Original Source shower gel and shampoo bars from Lush...growing a beard last 5-6 weeks too so dont need shaving gel and dont use hair gel...so they are not a problem anymore:)

I'm sure there is alot more I could talk about on this but I'll keep quiet, if I remember it then sure I can put it down in text here:)

henryporter

I suppose it's like the old saying 'what you don't know won't kill you' - as a vegetarian for 25 years I only recently stopped eating parmesan cheese, and still have to stop drinking Guinness. Animal products are everywhere in the food chain so unless you're prepared to live as a Vegan it is impossible to avoid some encounters. The other side of your argument about killing living things is more pertinent, like for example trapping mice or killing wasps. I just don't know the answer. I guess it goes back to the question of why you are vegetarian and how the beliefs that support your vegetarianism change as you develope.

iamthe43

Ouuuu...Interesting topic to say the least.

Well ive been a veggi for nearly ten years now. Originally I stopped eating meat because 1-I never enjoyed it, and 2-I didnt like handling raw meat. So that got me off it, but my attitude towards it has changed so many times sine then.

I drank a litre of milk every day until I was 10, and then one day stopped and havnt touched the stuff since, and never will again.If you take milk out of the fridge, it doesnt go off - It should

I choose not to eat meat for many reasons, but its got little to do with animal welfare, so I dont check the labels. I just dont see the need to eat animals. If something doesnt have meat in it, Ill eat it, but if I find out that something has an animal by-product in it, Ill be put off it. Basically, the more I learn, the less I eat. The latest one being gelatine - I always knew it was a by-product, but never actually knew what exactly, and recently just learned, and thats the end of that.

I choose not to eat eggs because...chicken periods, enough said.

I dont eat fish because were ruining our oceans.

anothernight

Hmmm

Well obviously I don't eat meat. The thing is, while I don't see humans as inherently superior to other animals, I do put myself and my family above the life of any other animal. In your case, I would've killed the lice.

I won't take medicines unless I'm dying or the doctor thinks it's absolutely necessary. If I'm prescribed tablets with animal products in them, I'll take them. If the disease/infection will clear off by itself, then I'd rather not have to take something that might contain animal products.

I generally check cheese at home. If I'm eating out, I tend to avoid cheesy dishes anyway, but I don't go out of my way to check if the cheese restaurants use is vegetarian.
Actually, most products that have whey in them, I won't really bother checking because I'd never finish. If someone points out to me that a specific product contains whey that isn't from a vegetarian source, I'll take that on board and try to avoid the product.

I don't wear leather, but I won't throw away leather shoes, belts, etc., that I've (or my family has) owned for a long time, especially if they were gifts, because it won't really spare anyone's suffering.

As for toiletries, I could see myself paying more attention to what they contain if I was the one that bought them. But as long as my parents are in charge of that I can't imagine that I'll ever bother.

Jeez I guess I'm a very loosely defined vegetarian.

Censorsh!t

I try be as strict as possible.

I don't eat jellies unless I know they don't have gelatin. Although, quite possibly I've eaten some dessert somewhere that does have it.

Only recently enough I've stopped eating parmesan.
I also often forget to check cheese ingredients before eating it, but thankfully rennet isn't so widely used anymore.

I don't buy leather, but if I'm bought something that contains leather I won't dump it, the deeds been done, may as well get some use of it.

I do hope to become vegan someday. But I feel that I'll wait till I move out, because my parents really would hate that, and I do think if I moved out it would be a lot easier without having loads of dairy etc looking at me.

I try buy products not tested on animals whenever I can. For instance, I'm gradually replacing makeup that I have with cruelty free makeup.

Absurdum

I use Ecover household products where possible, although the washing up liquid contains milk ingerdients, it isn't tested on animals so I'm ok with that. M&S washing up liquid is BUAV approved so I use that too sometimes.

I use Jason Organics toiletries usually, I find them really good. Original Source ones are more readily available, and are Vegan Society approved too.

Clothing - I don't buy leather and avoid wool mostly. My suits are made out of wool but thankfully funerals and court appearances are rare so they don't get out much.

sweet-rasmus

Absurdum wrote: »

I use Ecover household products where possible, although the washing up liquid contains milk ingerdients, it isn't tested on animals so I'm ok with that.

Arghhh no! Just checked. The Camomile and Marigold Ecover washing up liquid has milk whey, but the Lemon and Aloe Vera one doesn't. I remember that there is an issue with them testing their products on some sort of flies... I recently bought a bioD washing up liquid (which has the Vegan Society label). I might try and get it again.

Absurdum

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

Arghhh no! Just checked. The Camomile and Marigold Ecover washing up liquid has milk whey, but the Lemon and Aloe Vera one doesn't. I remember that there is an issue with them testing their products on some sort of flies... I recently bought a bioD washing up liquid (which has the Vegan Society label). I might try and get it again.

Their website states:

Ecover is against animal testing. Ecover has never performed or commissioned animal testing. In our opinion, animal testing to assess environmental and health risks is unnecessary.

In line with ECOVER’s environmental policy and in recognition of the strong beliefs held by animal welfare organisations, we offer a clearly defined animal testing policy:

• since their foundation in 1980 ECOVER has never tested any finished products or ingredients on animals, nor have they ordered such tests by third parties
• for research and product development ECOVER uses alternative methods of testing only. For Example – RBC (Red blood cell test)
• all Ecover suppliers are required to submit an annual written confirmation for each ingredient that no animal tests have been conducted on it. These statements guarantee that none of the ingredients have been tested or re-tested for the last five years
• Ecover will continue to pressure all suppliers to ban animal testing
• Ecover is not a member of BIBRA
• to reflect the development of Ecover’s animal testing policy Ecover supports FRAME (Fund for the Replacement of Animals in Medical Experiments)

Also, Are Ecover products suitable for Vegans?

All Ecover products are suitable for Vegans. The only exception is the Camomile and Marigold Washing Up Liquid which contains Milk Whey (for its hand softening properties.) This is a natural by-product of the dairy industry.

A Vegan alternative - Lemon and Aloe Vera Washing Up Liquid is available.

sweet-rasmus

Very informative Thank you!

Rancid

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

Arghhh no! Just checked. The Camomile and Marigold Ecover washing up liquid has milk whey, but the Lemon and Aloe Vera one doesn't. I remember that there is an issue with them testing their products on some sort of flies... I recently bought a bioD washing up liquid (which has the Vegan Society label). I might try and get it again.

They test on Water Fleas, Daphnia. These little guys are not too small to be seen with the naked eye, and quite beneficial in ponds.
http://www.vegaplanet.org/?p=509

sweet-rasmus

Rancid wrote: »

They test on Water Fleas, Daphnia. These little guys are not too small to be seen with the naked eye, and quite beneficial in ponds.
http://www.vegaplanet.org/?p=5

broken link there ^^

Rancid

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

broken link there ^^

Oops :eek:
http://www.vegaplanet.org/?p=509

Absurdum

Wow. I have to hold my hand up here, I had no idea. Their website is deceptive. I won't be buying their stuff again. Now to write an email to complain.....

edit: I like the look of this
http://www.lillysecoclean.com/index.html

sweet-rasmus

Rancid wrote: »

Oops :eek:
http://www.vegaplanet.org/?p=509

ewwww rabbit blood used in their testing. never buying that again.

Weyhey

How far do I go?

- I don't eat meat including fish, chicken, pork or products that might contain them.

- I only buy or eat veggie cheese in Ireland and the UK but the odd occasion when abroad I ate cheese that I thought might be ok but wasn't sure.

- When shopping i check all food labels but don't check cleaning products (but will start soon after hearing about Ecover ).

- I struggle to eat out asi find most non veg places have 'veggie' food with cheese that may not be veggie or food that could be cooked with meat or animal stock etc (or i refuse to pay 18e for pasta in red sauce)

- I don't drink guinness or ordinary bulmers etc because I know it is not veggie but i do drink wine and some spirits the odd time without asking/checking.

- I don't wear leather, silk, pearls or wool but I don't have a clue about the dye or glue in fabrics or packaging.

- I try to use only veggie cosmetics and toiletries but the odd time i don't check (i make sure i never use anything with obvious animal ingredients). Worse part is trying to find a decent veggie hair colour or products in hair dressers.

- I try to avoid medicines with animal products especially those with gelatine capsules but apart from the shell of the medicine i rarely know about the ingredients. If a medicine does have a gelatine capsule and I really need to take it i discard the capsule and still use the medicine.

- I am against animal cruelty but would kill lice and some flies (especially those that keep destroying my herbs or plants - grrrr) and maybe rats. I wouldn't kill spiders, bees, wasps or mice.

Because of my exceptions and because I am not vegan I would consider myself to be on the low to mid level of strictness. I take my hat off to vegans, I would love to be one but can't see that happening.

Rancid

Weyhey wrote: »

How far do I go?
...Worse part is trying to find a decent veggie hair colour....

Try Daniel Field Watercolours, most of the Nourish shops stock them.

rantyface

Weyhey wrote: »

- I struggle to eat out asi find most non veg places have 'veggie' food with cheese that may not be veggie or food that could be cooked with meat or animal stock etc (or i refuse to pay 18e for pasta in red sauce)

I like Indian best if I'm eating out. The Madina on Mary St. has a separate kitchen for vegetarian food because a lot of their customers are vegetarian hindus. Govindas is also lovely but it's not swanky enough for a big fancy meal ou. Even my carnivorous other half likes Govindas.

30H!3

I'm vegan for 2 years, but with food only.

I must say, fair play to the people here going to those lengths to stop animal cruelty.

Something I think about now and again is, how do you define life that is worth protecting, ie. at what point does a species become significant enough to say killing it is wrong. I'm talking about the millions of microbiota living in our bodies, the thousands of tiny insects we destroy by simply taking a walk in a garden or park, the dust-mites killed whenever we wash something, the bacteria killed when our body fights an infection etc. Just because a living entity is larger than those mentioned, does that make killing it less morally acceptable?

Don't get me wrong, the cruelty done to animals by the meat/fish/egg/dairy/science industry absolutely sickens me to the core, but how do you draw the line?

Irish Guitarist

I've been a vegetarian for a couple of years. I try to buy personal hygiene products that aren't tested on animals. I've even stopped using deodorant because I can't find any that isn't tested on animals. I don't wear leather or wool.

I put up with being stung by mosquitoes during the summer because 1) I didn't want to use mosquito repellent as it would probably have been tested on animals and 2) I didn't want to kill the mosquitoes. Anytime I saw one on my arm I would blow at him to get him to move. One day I got bitten and blew the mosquito off my arm. He then flew into a spiders web. I briefly thought "serves him right" but then I felt guilty so I tried to rescue him. I then felt guilty for almost pulling the spiders web apart so I stopped. The mosquito was already dead but I felt guilty for not intervening sooner. I thought to myself then "enough".

I feel guilty because I still drink milk though. I know that's veganism rather than vegetarianism but I'd still like to stop. I've tried drinking soya and rice milk but both were disgusting. I also like Frijj milkshakes too much. I buy organic milk whenever I can, but I'm not sure if that actually makes a difference to how the cows are treated. If I buy eggs I make sure they're free range but I don't know whether the eggs in ready meals I buy are free range or not. I'd like to stop eating eggs altogether but that would rule out Quorn.

If I get an ache or pain I don't go to the doctor because he'll more than likely prescribe something that has been tested on animals. If my life was at risk I might consider using medicine, but I put up with things like a painful knee joint that I've had for about a year.

bythewoods

I feel like a bad person after reading this thread.

I've been a vegetarian for a few years, and I stopped eating dairy at various points this year (but only because it makes me sick, not because I don't love delicious cheese... Mmmm...)

I avoid obvious things like jelly, but I'm really not that strict when it comes to things like, eh, marshmallows and icecreams which may have whey protein in them or whatever.
Never really think about cleaning products, or cosmetics... and certainly not alcohol! I did read before that some wine isn't suitable for veggies, but whatevz. I love wine.

When it comes to leather, totally fine with it. And if it was up to me to kill lice, I'd be all over it.
If I'm sick, I don't think twice about where my Medicine comes from.

I guess I'm just a very loose vegetarian really. I don't eat meat but I'm not too pushed on smaller details...

Absurdum

Absurdum wrote: »

Wow. I have to hold my hand up here, I had no idea. Their website is deceptive. I won't be buying their stuff again. Now to write an email to complain.....

edit: I like the look of this
http://www.lillysecoclean.com/index.html

update: Bought a load of these products at the Rude Health thingy and they really are excellent, they were doing 3 for €10, I'm not sure what the RRP is but it's well worth it - I bought 6 altogether.

Getwellsoon

As long as you do your best, to the best of your abilities, then that's what matters. As I see it, if people decided to eat vegan just a couple of days a week it would improve the planet greatly.

I am a vegan and I am strict 99% of the time. Sometimes I slip up unknowingly, or even knowingly (ie. if someone's cooked for me an accidentally put a bit of dairy in I won't throw it back in their face, or if I'm desperately craving something with a tiny bit of dairy I'll occasionally allow myself to have it)... but it's *rare*.

It's difficult to know where to draw the line. I don't buy any leather or woollen products, but I still use my old shoes, belts, hats and jumpers. I also wouldn't mind buying something woollen from a charity shop as it's recycling someone's unwanted clothing. For toiletries, I try to shop in Lush and Superdrug, where I know things are vegan. I'm on medication at the moment and I know for a fact that it is not vegan, it upsets me somewhat, but I can't really do anything about that. I need it, and I'm so good at being vegan in so many other aspects of my life that I think I'm doing the best I can... which is what matters.

What irritates me, personally, is a lot of vegetarians with militant animal rights opinions... like, WHY are they vegetarian? They should really be vegan, because they are STILL contributing to animal suffering GREATLY by consuming dairy. I don't get why they decided to draw the line at the meat, but still continue to eat the dairy and make animals suffer. Maybe they feel they can't live without dairy? Maybe they don't KNOW they are contributing to animal suffering?

sweet-rasmus

Be careful not to over step the boundaries of this thread Getwellsoon. People are welcome to their own beliefs and it is up to them "how far they go".

Please continue on discussing your personal limits as a veggie/vegan

sweet-rasmus

lalee17

I'm a vegetarian, and am very strict about what I eat/drink, but never even thought about deodorant at all! (thanks Irish Guitarist)

I avoid all wine as I don't know if it's suitable or not... I try to only drink Corona as I know for a fact that it's vegan.

I use an app on my iPhone (called 'Additives') to check the origins of E numbers in foods; I always read ingredients.

But that said, if an ant/mosquito/wasp bit or stung me I'd probably kill it. I always try to remove insects from my house without killing them though.

I don't wear leather at all, ever. I usually wear things like jeans/cotton.

I don't know if it really applies here but I also avoid plastic shopping bags at all costs.

Getwellsoon

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

Be careful not to over step the boundaries of this thread Getwellsoon. People are welcome to their own beliefs and it is up to them "how far they go".

Please continue on discussing your personal limits as a veggie/vegan

sweet-rasmus

:eek: Eek. Sorry about that, don't mean to offend anyone. Especially as I'm not 100% strict and normally hating to sound militant! Of course it's up to anyone how far they go - ANYTHING THEY CAN DO is better than nothing. So my apologies.

Lia_lia

I am not too strict at all to be honest. I was brought up as a vegetarian by my Mother who simply didn't like the taste/idea of eating meat. She's not all into her animal rights. So I just don't really eat meat because I never did when I was growing up.

I go through phases of eating fish. Because I can handle that! But still never touch red meat/poultry/anything that isn't fish. I'll still wear leather. Oddly enough I sometimes can't bring myself to eat food that contains gelatine. Even though I LOVE gummy bears etc.

I never kill insects.