Who here makes their entire income from photography...

gloobag

... and at what point in your photographic journey did you decide to make the leap? Was there a defining 'Eureka' moment that spurred you on, or was it a gradual more organic process? Are you now a struggling artiste or a thriving business person, or something in between.

The reason I ask is because I hate my current job (so much so, that if it were a person I would stab it in the face multiple times). I work in IT in a huge company that shall remain nameless, but I'm basically just a number in a database of a big corporate machine.

So, I've been thinking a lot lately about getting my debts paid off and then just leaving and going for it with what I love to do (even though this job doesn't give much opportunity to embrace that love). So I'd love to hear peoples stories of how they made it, are trying to make it or have tried and failed.

Thanks

smelltheglove

I do, but having said that, I fell into it. I didnt go back to work after my second child and it was more of a thing where, people started to ask me to go to things with my camera that after a while I just started to charged. On thing led to another and 3 yrs later I'm a wedding photographer, well thats 3 years since I did my first job.

I dont think I would recommend giving up a good paying job, its a hard game. I could have 3 months where all is gravy then 2 where work is scarce. The pay is unreliable unless you are well established with the connections and base to get good jobs in and getting to the stage where you can afford a good location is a hard one, I'm yet to get there myself, hopefully in another 3 yrs time I will have somewhere nice though but for now I do with an indoor market stall.

Borderfox

Made redundant from my previous job, I had been working events for two years prior to that.

The earnings wouldnt touch my old job but that doesnt really matter so long as I make a living out of it, job satisfaction is through the roof too

I work from home and like the flexibility and lack of overheads, I am getting to the stage where people are looking for me so all the hard work is starting to pay off

gloobag

smelltheglove wrote: »

I do, but having said that, I fell into it. I didnt go back to work after my second child and it was more of a thing where, people started to ask me to go to things with my camera that after a while I just started to charged. On thing led to another and 3 yrs later I'm a wedding photographer, well thats 3 years since I did my first job.

I dont think I would recommend giving up a good paying job, its a hard game. I could have 3 months where all is gravy then 2 where work is scarce. The pay is unreliable unless you are well established with the connections and base to get good jobs in and getting to the stage where you can afford a good location is a hard one, I'm yet to get there myself, hopefully in another 3 yrs time I will have somewhere nice though but for now I do with an indoor market stall.

Thanks for sharing your story I'd imagine that a lot photographers fell into it the very same way you did.

I get where you're coming from, saying to stick it out in a safe job. I go through phases of feeling that way myself, but at the end of the day, I don't see why I should be miserable just for the sake of earning an ok wage (I ain't that well paid at all to be honest).

When I think about it, I'd much rather be financially strapped, but enjoying what I do, than miserable and reasonably stable money wise.

gloobag

Borderfox wrote: »

job satisfaction is through the roof too

This, to me, is worth more than money right now.

smelltheglove

gloobag wrote: »

I get where you're coming from, saying to stick it out in a safe job. I go through phases of feeling that way myself, but at the end of the day, I don't see why I should be miserable just for the sake of earning an ok wage (I ain't that well paid at all to be honest).

When I think about it, I'd much rather be financially strapped, but enjoying what I do, than miserable and reasonably stable money wise.

Thats a good point, I love going to work, when I get the work. Building a reputation is a hard thing, you need to impress so people will pass your name along.

Do you know what area of photography you want to go into? It may be an idea spending some time in different areas as, contrary to belief, there will be one where you excel and enjoy as opposed to others which are just work. If I had a wedding a week I genuinely would be a happy person, I have a huge passion for it and enjoy it as opposed to studio work, although I enjoy it I find the social interaction I find in a wedding to be much preferable, the fact that the clients and guests are enjoying it rather than trying to get the attention of a 3 yr old when all they want to do is play. On the other hand there are photographers who wouldnt dream of working weddings because of the pressures involved.

stcstc

I kinda do

in that i dont make my living from taking photos, i make mine from printing and framing other peoples

It has taken 3 1/2 years to get to the point where i am now, where people now come to me asking for stuff

on average it takes 3 years to get a business established

I meet a lot of photographers who are earning a living. and some of them who are quite well established are starting to struggle at the moment.

so i would suggest keeping the day job, and developing both skills and contacts, gaining small amounts of work etc, and use this money to purchase equipment etc (this is what i have done) and then if it doesnt grow enough to earn a living if nothing else you have bought some nice toys for your hobby

magicbastarder

as a friend - someone who does travel photography - once said to me; before leaving my job, i should go out every evening and expose two rolls of film, no matter whether i felt like it or not, and come back to him after three months of this to let him know whether i still wanted to take photos for a living.

eas

It's a tough call to up and quit for a new career, it's been said before photography is hard nut to crack. Without trying to sound too negative, it seems as though photography has become a popular "turn to" career for people who either have lost their jobs or are looking for something new. Nothing really wrong with that, but if things continue as they're going it's going to continue to get tougher and tougher.

In your situation you should be 100% sure you've got something special that people want before making any major decisions. Do market research, focus groups or whatever it takes, but don't take your mates flattering comments as evidence that you'll succeed - unless they'll be the ones hiring you!

Truth is being a photographer is only about 20% of the job (for me anyhow) the other 80% is split up between numerous things, most probably less exciting than your current job.

Sick days? Forget them. Weekends? Nope. VHI? Negative. Pension? Not likely. There are so many things that we take for granted as salaried employees that just disappear once you start working for yourself. Be sure to look into everything and consider all the extra costs associated.

If you have nothing to loose (it sounds as thought you're pretty miserable at your current job) why not try moonlighting for awhile and see how you get on? If your financial responsibilities are low then it's probably a good time to consider at least starting the process towards making a move.

Borderfox

smelltheglove wrote: »

Thats a good point, I love going to work, when I get the work. Building a reputation is a hard thing, you need to impress so people will pass your name along.

Do you know what area of photography you want to go into? It may be an idea spending some time in different areas as, contrary to belief, there will be one where you excel and enjoy as opposed to others which are just work. If I had a wedding a week I genuinely would be a happy person, I have a huge passion for it and enjoy it as opposed to studio work, although I enjoy it I find the social interaction I find in a wedding to be much preferable, the fact that the clients and guests are enjoying it rather than trying to get the attention of a 3 yr old when all they want to do is play. On the other hand there are photographers who wouldnt dream of working weddings because of the pressures involved.

From my point of view, I love every aspect of the job. From Horse shows to Weddings to product shoots, I find them enjoyable. I still shoot for fun too, I finished working at the RDS and on the way home stopped at the Point to take some shots of the World cruise ship. Cant say that of my old job

punchdrunk

I work in a camera shop,so I guess I do!

never really thought about it like that before...

CabanSail

You do have to look at where the money will come from to pay you to be a Photographer. If you are looking at producing Art then in bad economic times that becomes a luxury for many that they cannot afford. As said above there are a lot of people without jobs who are also looking at Photography to try to make ends meet at present. You will need to find a niche to have a chance here. The advice of doing it part time is probably the best idea.

I'm looking at making the change over to being a paid Photographer myself at the moment. It was a long shot but last week it became a LOT more likely to happen. It's still not "in the bag" but looking good.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

smelltheglove

Borderfox wrote: »

From my point of view, I love every aspect of the job. From Horse shows to Weddings to product shoots, I find them enjoyable. I still shoot for fun too, I finished working at the RDS and on the way home stopped at the Point to take some shots of the World cruise ship. Cant say that of my old job

Ah one of the rare breed;) Ah no I enjoy a lot of areas of photography, I love outdoor family portrait sessions, I love model portfolio shoots and I really love live music photography but the passion is weddings. When I was starting out I remember someone on here saying to me that I should have an area of specialty, I was happy to do any type of photography, no bother to me, I guess I was a little bit naive thinking oh I'll love it all whereas now I know I have my areas and sure if someone asked me to go out and photo a horse show I would be mor einclined to say, no its not my thing but I'll put you in touch with a man who can.

Heebie

I did from 2001-2006. Then I got back into IT.. and now.. I get to take a lot of photos myself.. with my own equipment.. instead of mostly scanning & printing other people's work.
I did upset a few people when I decided to leave that industry.. but they'll live..and so will I.

Hugh_C

eas wrote: »

Without trying to sound too negative, it seems as though photography has become a popular "turn to" career for people who either have lost their jobs

I think I'm probably one of those, I probably make a bit less than half my income on photography and slightly more than half doing what I have always done - video editing/direction/production (now freelance). I've been doing that for a very long time. The company I worked for imploded in Feb 2009. I've been photographing professionally since April 2009.

Mostly I love the photography, it's seriously hard work, the hours are brutal especially with vast amounts of post. Post-production is what causes most photography businesses to fail. It's just either not budgeted for or under-budgeted. Beware of that.

PCPhoto

I earn my money taking pics for the papers - partially working for an agency - partially working for myself (freelance).

like others have said.... its tough....what wasn't mentioned earlier is ... you can forget about holidays and the word "NO" .... if someone asks if you are available to work ....its "YES, what is the job about ?"

I've rarely turned down work ...in the past 10-12yrs I think I've refused work maybe 5-6times (and most of them was because I couldn't find someone else to do the job - even last weekend I took on work.... while I'm away in Maui - my first holiday in 3 years (and I've taken a loan to pay for it) - got other photographers to do the job for me - I don't make any extra money but if the paper phones they know I can get the job done - even if I don't do it myself) .

.... I've not had a sick day in about 8yrs and have worked: Easter, Christmas Day, Stephens' Day, New Years eve, ..... mothers day, fathers day etc ... you get the picture....my current holiday is my first in 3 yrs...and the holiday 3yrs ago was my first in 5yrs ....so I rarely have the chance to go on holidays.

It can be a rewarding/relaxed job..... but remember there are loads of people taking it up as a part-time job and the market is shrinking - if you can find a niche ...go for it...if not ...be prepared for a couple of years hard slog ...possibly with little or no income.

I can earn 4K one month ...and the next month I may not earn €500....and that means being out there taking pics...spending money every day ...so I end out loosing money at the end of the month...not even covering my bills.

Do you think you can earn enough money to cover your bills/expenses EVERY month ?

mikeanywhere

I earn all my income from being a photographer.

I was also earning a massive salary before but doing this job is more satisfying and rewarding than anything I have ever done before. I did my first gig in March 2008 and it took a while for other people, in the industry especially, to realise that I was here to stay and that I wasn't another weekend warrior or Uncle Joe.

PCPhoto was right about the hols thing. So far this year I have had only 4 weekends off with maybe another 4 or so available to me until New Years Eve. Expect to be working a lot (this is where not saying no comes into it ), working long hours to get your name out there so that people know who you are and how to get hold of you.

One thing I would seriously suggest you do which can be somewhat boring is to write down what you want to do, what equipment do I need to have, what courses can I participate in, when you want to do it by and set your self realistic goals to help you achieve the greater goal.

CabanSail

PCPhoto wrote: »

I can earn 4K one month ...and the next month I may not earn €500....and that means being out there taking pics...spending money every day ...so I end out loosing money at the end of the month...not even covering my bills.

Is that 4K before or after expenses?

It's a good thing that you enjoy it as you are not in it for the money. I would think that this is true for most Pro Togs.

PCPhoto

that would be 4K + VAT .... before expenses ...and it could months before I would actually get the money ...it takes between 6-8weeks normally,

......but when things go wrong - last year I was waiting 3 months for one newspaper to pay me and 9 months for another one to pay me - had to borrow to pay rent/bills from my parents - I eventually got the money and paid back some of the borrowings to my parents.

you have to keep on top of things constantly - I have 3 received remittance slips from one paper (saying they have paid me) ...but 10days later - still no money in my account.... which means I have to send them an email and hope they find out what the problem is and get back to me - otherwise they could ignore it and I have to go chasing....in about 2-3weeks time ....which will mean I wont get the money for another month ...maybe 6 weeks..... which isnt good if you have loans to pay and rent to pay....also that was for images printed in July....invoice sent mid/end of july, processed and remittance slip issued end of august.... no payment received... could be end of sept before I get it .... or even october....they only pay out on set days...so you have to wait till the next month's payments.

Thecageyone

I can imagine how tough it is to try make a good living out of it. I'd love to some day, but won't pressure myself into it for the time being. Still learning, still trying to build on the equipment.

I'm out of work through injury anyway, which is mainly why I took it up as a hobby. I've always been into art/photography in some way though.

I've worked in half a dozen soul-destroying jobs, not bad money, just never great. And in the end the work bust my back and now I can't even lift the kids without shrieking from pain. But that's another story ...

I would be very happy if I could make ends meet and a little on top each month from doing something I enjoy. I love shooting, I love processing, I love when others like my work. It can be very satisfying. I don't think I'd enjoy weddings or anything formal like only doing studio shoots - I like to be out and about. I like a bit of all sides, I don't have a definitive favourite style. But I have been trying to build a little portrait business of my own.

Children/family/pets ... so far, all unpaid jobs. But that will stop very soon.

I would much prefer out on location shooting than being stuck in a studio, better a garden scene than fake backing for me personally. I don't know what I'd call myself: Freelance portraiture tog, or something.

velopeloton

Life is too short to be unhappy. If you hate your job, go for it. What do you have to lose? You need to weight that up against what there is to gain. I also worked in IT, 2 years ago I left to start a new business in what I was passionate about and so far so good. Yes there is all the stress that people have posted about here & it is hard, but I'm the boss now so I just deal with it, its my s**t I'm dealing with and not someone else's. It will take between 3 & 5 years to get established so its not a short term plan. I made sure I quit work with enough money to survive for 1 year without anything from the business, in reality I needed enough for 1.5 years.

jpb1974

I work in IT in a huge company that shall remain nameless, but I'm basically just a number in a database of a big corporate machine.

I know how you feel... I work in IT too and often feel like phucking this computer through the window.

But at the end of the day it's a steady income (for now) and with a small child to rear and a mortgage I can't feel too sorry for myself... especially when I look around at people getting made redundant left, right and centre.

I've gotten to the point now where I've become as numb as I can towards the job... come in, do an honest day's work, take the pay and run. Enjoy your free time as much as you can.

Maj Malfunction

I would imagine it can be quite tough to make a living exclusively from Photography. Given the reality that a lot of people have lost their regular jobs and have decided to take up photography to earn a living the market I am sure it is quite competitive out there.

First off you have to be commercial about it otherwise you are a serious enthusiast making a little money to fund your hobby. You should sit down and work out a business plan to give you a road map with definitive goals to work to and try to stick to of course

You might prefer to shoot landscapes or street photography, but will you sell enough of these images every month to pay the bills, so you will need to compromise and probably diversify into wedding photography and freelancing for newspapers, find your niche!

Everyone wants the job done, but nobody likes to pay, so don't be slow to invoice people and send them reminders. In theory businesses are expected to offer 30 day credit terms, in reality most businesses will stretch this out to to the 90 day mark, so you need to consider that when balancing your cashflow.

So long as your enjoying it and working as your own boss its not all that bad!

smash

I'd love to do it, and do it properly by going out and taking some courses, joining clubs etc. Apart from the money, the biggest problem for me is the 'mates rates' aspect of it. My sister in law is getting married, she's broke and asked me to take photos. I straight out said no and told her "After the ceremony it's no problem but I'm not doing it at the church, I don't want to be the guy that missed the essential shot!"

I'm currently a web/graphic designer and when I go to meet clients they ask me to take some pics as part of the package. This pisses me off no end because they wont pay extra for it, and without it they won't get me to do their site.

Thecageyone

Yeah, so far it's been family and friends interested in me shooting them or their kids/pets. But mention money and they suddenly don't need the shots in a hurry ...

I am shooting my sister's wedding as a present next Summer. To be honest, I'm grand with it because I find Mass, evening wedding ceremonies, boring and dragged out. At least I'll be kept busy. And I know she'll be happy with whatever I do, and I have herself and her partner to myself right after the ceremony until I'm happy with the shots.

daycent

I make my entire income from photography. It's still relatively early days for me, and it does definitely take a fair bit of time to get yourself established.

Basically, I got my degree (in something I had no interest in) and due to the recession was finding it impossible to find a job. I took on a few jobs and decided to go full time at it after a while. When you're a full time photographer, you're never really working, but you're never really off either.

I think self employment doesn't suit everyone. If you've been in the workforce as an employee for a long while, I'd imagine it would take some getting used to.

I managed to go full time because my circumstances suited it. I have no mortgage, kids or big responsibilities, and I don't pay a lot of rent/have many debts. If you have any of these you could find it very difficult/impossible to start a business from scratch.

squareballoon

I still make some of my money from freelance illustration but it would be 90% photography. It's a tough way to make money and I'm certainly not earning nearly as much as I was 10 years ago as a graphic designer.

CabanSail

If all goes to plan, then I hope to be earning my living from Photohraphy soon. This will be an 8am - 4.30pm Mon - Fri job with holidays, sick leave & pension. Fingers crossed it all goes OK as I am really looking forward to it.

humberklog

I do. But from artistic works and not jobbing (weddings, nags or courts). It's grand. No web-site, just real life selling. I too come from a very high paying profession but took a year in '08ish off for fun and to concentrate on music and photography. A year later the economy had drifted a bit and as EMI weren't coming around banging the door down demanding my Christmas hit single off me I decided to try something completely different.


It's grand but tough.

Gloobag you don't say whether your escapism is in thinking about pointing a camera at what you like or at what someone else expects you to point it at. They are two very different disciplines.

gloobag

Very interesting to read all the stories and opinions so far.

My own story? I've been taking photographs semi seriously for about three years, although had an interest long before that. I've never made any money from it, although have been offered plenty of opportunities to photograph various events for people I know. I've also had requests for a few of my photos to be used in various publications.

I'm still trying to figure out what area of photography I'd like to concentrate on. I love taking photographs of everything really, but I guess I would have to say portraits are my favorite.

When I visualize what my ideal working photographer situation would be, it's me doing editorial style portraits for magazines etc. . .

I currently have zero experience in doing any of this right now of course

Because of the job, I get very little time to actually practice my craft right now, and often the free time that I do have is spent either traveling to see my girlfriend who lives on the other end of the country or just feeling completely defeated by the depressing day I've just had in work. But, on those times that I do get out there and do something, I'm almost always happy with the progress my images have made.

I'm 30 years old, and have been working for the same company for 11 years. I've worked my way up so far, but don't see myself going any further and don't particularly want to. I don't want to live to be 80+ years old and not have at least taken a chance on something I love.

I know a lot of people are trying their hand at this photography lark these days (I actually know a guy who bought a 450D and had a website up a week later saying he was a wedding photographer. And no, he wasn't any good either). But I honestly think I'm different to most of these people.

Firstly, I'm not motivated to do this because of money. I know that there's no guarantee that you even break even in this industry. If I could even just survive doing something I enjoy for the rest of my days. I'm pretty sure I'll die happy. Of course that doesn't mean that, given the chance, that I wouldn't go for it, big time!

Secondly, I've always been a bit artsy fartsy. I won my first art competition at four years old with a fantastic rendering of the A-Team van in crayon From then on I pretty much always had a pencil or piece of charcoal in my hand up until my teens, when I replaced them with a guitar and a rock star attitude :cool: I didn't pick up a camera because it was a shiny new gadget to possess . I consider photography to be an extension of the creativity that's always been present in my life.

I'm going to stick it out with the job for the time being. I've got some sizable credit card debt (damn you L lenses, damn you!) that I need to clear. There's also rumors of voluntary redundancies in the company coming soon. My 11 years of service would net me a big enough cheque to live reasonably for maybe two years. That would give me two years to try and get myself sorted. I would love to have that opportunity. Here's hoping...

humberklog

I've often joked that to get ahead creatively you have to first shoot dead your spouse/partner, friends and family. Or at least get a huge distance from them when being creative.

Rather than finding the space of time from your job perhaps try and ask your partner for a bit of give. Mark off more weekend time for yourself.

We're hurtling towards winter now with gay abandon. Evenings closing quick. Perfect time to look for some creative space for yourself for in a couple of months when we're returning to sun you may have clearer concept of what you'd really like to do.

gbee

gloobag wrote: »

. So I'd love to hear peoples stories of how they made it, are trying to make it or have tried and failed. Thanks

Right now professional photography is absolutely the worst scenario out there. Colleges continue to produce hundreds of photographers with no jobs for them.

The market is overcrowded and you just won't make a living. Seven start ups in my area have pitifully fallen over, payment from clients has dragged to three months, salaries and charges are down, expenses are down work for prints only ion some cases and so on, it's totally depressing, only the Taxi men have a harder time of it.

Some examples, €5,000 wedding photographers doing the same for €1,500 and are beaten by disc only three hours at wedding for €300/€500.

€500 an hour commercials as now €50.

You won't make it alone, you'll need a partner in a regular job or on the dole. Equipment is expensive and is a requirement.

I've been in photography on an off since 1968, I'm facing retirement without a pension, too many recessions and the good times just never made up for it ~ as soon as it turns good every teacher, guard, fireman, prison officer, nurse and more suddenly are photographers too.

No regulation, so bring it on!

DougL

If the kind of photography you enjoy also happens to make you money...great! If not, don't be tempted to do another kind of photography just because it makes money. It won't be any more rewarding than your current dead end job.

I did wedding photography for years, and it just isn't for me. I love landscape photography, and there's feck all money in it. Thankfully, I have a job that affords me decent gear, so when I go home I can do what I really love, which so far hasn't made me a cent, but makes me happy. If I'm lucky, some day I'll make enough money from my hobby to pay for my gear, but I don't have any illusions that landscape photography is going to pay my mortgage.

-Doug

Lovely, optimistic thread


I like photography, but I'm not consistent or good enough to even consider it as a profession.

However, if I was a good photographer, and I was considering it as a profession, I'd merely look for a job where I could try and worm in photography as part of it.


Gardaì have photographers for crime scenes, a cabinet making company I know have a psuedo photographer (a cabinet maker who gets every second friday off in exchange for taking photos of fitted units every second saturday, takes about three or four hours, between delivering the units and returning, a handy number!). Similar deal with a car showroom a guy i know works in (though they don't do it any more i don't think).


So i'd go for the joe soap job with a guaranteed wage, and try to introduce photography into it. Take a job where you think you might be able to introduce photography.

As far as I know, theres a friend of a friends' father, who worked for the council for years as a photographer. No idea what he photographed, and the man hasn't got a clue how to use a camera, so i don't think it matters, but im sure there are some mental jobs out there where you could use a camera to relieve the stress of "just another day".


On a photography course I did at the start of the year, one of the guys on it was an ex army bloke, who was getting paid (not sure by whom) to attend a few days at the barracks here and there, and photograph disabled/disadvantaged/etc. people visiting the base, posed with the soldiers, equipment, etc.

Not sure of the exact ins and outs, but it was an interesting one. No doubt, he'd never have gotten in there if he weren't in the army, but its something.

eas

There was a thread not too long ago about photographers being hired on cruise ships. If I was young & single I'd have a go at that for awhile.

smelltheglove

Oh I saw that one too eas, ah if I was free and single.... I still believe Im young although the birth cert is arguing that case;)

oshead

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I know, theres a friend of a friends' father, who worked for the council for years as a photographer. No idea what he photographed, and the man hasn't got a clue how to use a camera, so i don't think it matters, but im sure there are some mental jobs out there where you could use a camera to relieve the stress of "just another day".

That's funny. I knew a guy, nick name Banana, who worked for the council as a digger and the man hasn't got a clue how to use a shovel. Small world, eh?

eas

eas wrote: »

There was a thread not too long ago about photographers being hired on cruise ships. If I was young & single I'd have a go at that for awhile.

Ah I'd say there was more to it than free cruises in exchange for being their photographer, though, surely?

oshead wrote: »

That's funny. I knew a guy, nick name Banana, who worked for the council as a digger and the man hasn't got a clue how to use a shovel. Small world, eh?

thebaz

i have tried making the odd few quid from photography , not very successfuly over the years - when money is involved i find it takes away the pleasure , and I end up photographing what someone else wants me to see , rather than what i see , and it becomes unnatural for me - overall i have made a little , but certainly nothing to live on - if i can make money in other areas i will be happy , but then i hate money , as long as i have food and shelter , and cash for family, oh and a bit of rough travelling - i'll be ok

eas

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'd say there was more to it than free cruises in exchange for being their photographer, though, surely?

With most jobs you tend to get paid money too.

magicbastarder

spending weeks on end on a cruise ship sounds like mental torture to me.

kjt

eas wrote: »

There was a thread not too long ago about photographers being hired on cruise ships. If I was young & single I'd have a go at that for awhile.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056014585

That looks awesome!

gbee

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah I'd say there was more to it than free cruises in exchange for being their photographer, though, surely?

Absolutely, you have to muck about with other duties too, but the worst is the sales pressure, you have targets to reach and you must photography everybody doing everything, everyday, everywhere and have those prints or proofs ready in a few hours, you must be up for breakfast and be as the last waltz each night.

Certainly for the young, even a twenty year old is probably over the hill for this one.

jpb1974

spending weeks on end on a cruise ship sounds like mental torture to me.

Not if it was 'The Love Boat'.