Ireland and Albania...

ODS

During the 'Celtic Tiger', Albania used to be a joke reference for somewhere poor, backward, corrupt and submissive. After communism, that country got caught up in a massive pyramid scheme -

Wikipedia wrote:

the rudimentary financial system became dominated by Ponzi schemes, and government officials endorsed a series of pyramid investment funds.

- which ultimately in 1997, collapsed. (Sound familiar? *cough, Irish property market, cough*)

The 3 million Albanian population went nuts and dissent broke out, resulting in the fall and subsequent replacement of their government. They rebelled over the loss of $1.2 billion.

Last Sunday new analysis by journalist Damien Kiberd indicates Ireland's actual national debt is heading for €200 billion.

Alone the expected cost of Anglo Irish Bank has risen from 4 billion as was the governments original estimate, to 25 billion, and last week was reported as probably going to go north of €35 billion... Today further 'massive losses' are going to be announced at the 'Anger Irish Bank' - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0831/breaking2.html

Having offered us "Berlin or Boston", our 'leaders' have delivered us an economic Baghdad. By contrast, having also had an economic collapse, Iceland has since replaced its government, flushed out the rot, locked up a few responsible people, and is recovering... Meanwhile in Ireland, directors who sat on bank boards during the making of the mess are still sitting there - and paid accordingly. Why is it that in Japan disgraced bankers and speculators commit hari kari, in America they go to jail - yet in Ireland they go on holiday?

In my opinion, business confidence cannot return while we allow the people who created the mess preside over its supposed repair. Without penalty there is no deterrent against more corruption and book-cooking. This state no longer has even the pretense of a a republic, but is a kleptocracy :mad:

I am not advocating Albania as a perfect solution - up to 2000 died in the '97 unrest... but what I am wondering is, when are we as a people going to grow some balls???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_unrest_in_Albania



Note to Mods, I put this in AH for wide feedback as its not just a political anorak topic

Chinasea

I hear what you are saying, but who voted the said government back in again, in again and in again. I don't think anything has changed - apathy rules and Joe Duffy/forums thrive in Ireland.

ODS

Chinasea wrote: »

I hear what you are saying, but who voted the said government back in again, in again and in again. I don't think anything has changed - apathy rules and Joe Duffy/forums thrive in Ireland.

So is it beyond our ability to grow some balls?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ODS wrote: »

So is it beyond our ability to grow some balls?

Yep.

super_furry

Irish people don't care. They'll sit around a grumble and moan, but then go to the pub, get ****ed up and forget about it.

Yes it's bad on paper but there's no one starving yet so how could a revolt work.. People can't get angry enough to take down a government when there's still jobs, a working banking system and a high level of social welfare.

200bn debt sounds the exact to me same as 40bn did during the good times. They're just big numbers that lose meaning.

Wibbs

ODS wrote: »

but what I am wondering is, when are we as a people going to grow some balls???

I hate to say it, but you'll wait a very long time for that. Contrary to how we like to see ourselves, we are not rebellious as a culture/people. Sure we celebrate it in song and word, but in deed rarely. At least in our own country. A nation of tutting twitching windows does not a rebel often make.

I do agree that the figures involved and the... I was going to call it corruption, but its just as much amateur hour greed and stupidity, do make for a ridiculous picture. The fact we haven't strung people up by their ankles in law at least is even more ridiculous.

I would say Albania is a bad comparison though. When their "boom" went crashing down around their ears, they had nothing left. When one has nothing to lose, going batshít on the streets is as easy as not. When you've got kids and a mortgage and are worn down by debt(often of your own making), but life appears to go on around you, then taking to the streets seems a long way away. The young, childless and with nothing to lose are usually the ones who revolt.

Iceland is a much better comparison and in that comparison we are lacking. And we ahould be ashamed. We bent over for the English, we bent over even further for the church, so it doesn't come as a shock that we bend over for these people. As a nation we have very bendy backs. Look at the scandals that have followed various public political figures. Look at how their "peeeple" backed them the next time they put X on their vote. Indeed it seems in this country its a good way to get votes. Look at the barely disguised contempt held by many of our politicos for the people they represent. Especially when they've been found to have their hand in the greasy till. A till of our money. The Flynn family are a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Flynn and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1draig_Flynn. The former is still an elected representative. It beggars belief.

Like I said, don't hold your breath, for while parish pump gombeenism and tugging forelocks to your "betters" and Shure isnt he/she greatism is in play, you'll have long gone blue before anything changes.

Dyr

Because we are a cosy little country where the media and politicians and power players are bestest buddies with room enough at the trough so long as you edge out joe public once the going gets tough.


All it would take to change it would be a for a few of these c**ts to wind up swinging from lamp posts. They think that they're untouchable.

starbelgrade

Ireland and Albania

Is that match on after the Armenia one?

ODS

super_furry wrote: »

Irish people don't care. They'll sit around a grumble and moan, but then go to the pub, get ****ed up and forget about it.

Yet it happened before - in the lead up to 1921 - and this wasn't exactly a country known for its abstinence then; if anything we were far worse at living up to national stereotypes... But we did it - we got some balls and made some progress.

Can we rediscover courage and focus it to positive effect? Its not that we are an embarrassment to past generations who had courage - the real crime is we will be a shame to future generations for seeing them stuck with someone else's casino bill

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

a high level of social welfare.

The Irish have balls. They also have Novocaine for the wallet.

Thing is, the govt is borrowing that Novocaine and they are also borrowing for public sector wages.

That cannot continue indefinitely. Then you will see something.

Terry

Give me a shout if you're going to take down the dail. I'm in.
It'll probably just be the two of us though. See Wibbs's post above.

Brendog

Ah now its just something for Irish people to complain about.
We'll end up in the pub complaining, forget about it and wake up covered in garlic sauce and a kebab.....Its a tradition.



Also, anyone remember the eurovision? I don't know where Albania is. All I know is their female singer had sound tits

ODS

Wibbs wrote: »

I hate to say it, but you'll wait a very long time for that. Contrary to how we like to see ourselves, we are not rebellious as a culture/people. Sure we celebrate it in song and word, but in deed rarely. At least in our own country. A nation of tutting twitching windows does not a rebel often make.

I do agree that the figures involved and the... I was going to call it corruption, but its just as much amateur hour greed and stupidity, do make for a ridiculous picture. The fact we haven't strung people up by their ankles in law at least is even more ridiculous.

I would say Albania is a bad comparison though. When their "boom" went crashing down around their ears, they had nothing left. When one has nothing to lose, going batshít on the streets is as easy as not. When you've got kids and a mortgage and are worn down by debt(often of your own making), but life appears to go on around you, then taking to the streets seems a long way away. The young, childless and with nothing to lose are usually the ones who revolt.

Iceland is a much better comparison and in that comparison we are lacking. And we ahould be ashamed. We bent over for the English, we bent over even further for the church, so it doesn't come as a shock that we bend over for these people. As a nation we have very bendy backs. Look at the scandals that have followed various public political figures. Look at how their "peeeple" backed them the next time they put X on their vote. Indeed it seems in this country its a good way to get votes. Look at the barely disguised contempt held by many of our politicos for the people they represent. Especially when they've been found to have their hand in the greasy till. A till of our money. The Flynn family are a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Flynn and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1draig_Flynn. The former is still an elected representative. It beggars belief.

Like I said, don't hold your breath, for while parish pump gombeenism and tugging forelocks to your "betters" and Shure isnt he/she greatism is in play, you'll have long gone blue before anything changes.

Good points there Wibbs - like the phrase re a nation of tutting twitching windows...

But today more massive losses will be announced at Anglo, where it is heading north of 35 b at cost to the exchequer, after we were lied to that it would cost 4 b :mad:

As a people we were sold a pup - encouraged by pretend leaders to confuse debt with wealth, with critics silenced or black listed in terms of employment prospects. We deserved better; after peace emerged in the north and we began to make some economic progress in the 90s, we could have been something.

Prior to '97 Albania wasn't known as a rebellious country. As topper75 says, this can't continue indefinitely...

Wibbs

ODS wrote: »

Yet it happened before - in the lead up to 1921 - and this wasn't exactly a country known for its abstinence then; if anything we were far worse at living up to national stereotypes... But we did it - we got some balls and made some progress.

It very nearly didnt happen. It was as much to do with woeful misreading by the British of the feelings on the street and how they reacted to it. If they had handled things better, especially after the 1916 rebellion, I'd give at least even odds we'd still have a foreign monarch on our coin.

Can we rediscover courage and focus it to positive effect? Its not that we are an embarrassment to past generations who had courage

What past generations? I'm serious too. For way too long we either fought each other or fought the oppressor in very small numbers. The final rebellion that got us out from under that yoke was a perfect storm. Then of course afterwards we went batshít on each other.

the real crime is we will be a shame to future generations for seeing them stuck with someone else's casino bill

I agree. People born this very day will be paying for this and its likely even their unborn children will be doing same.

dasdog

When we cannot borrow to pay wages/welfare the trouble will start. I'm thinking this will happen sometime around the middle of next year. The (up to) €38bn for Anglo (not €24bn Mr. Dukes) will break us.

Wibbs

The other issue of course is what do you do after? Lets say it's Viva la Revolution next Tuesday, then what? What do you replace these structures and some of the morons and criminals in them with? More of the same? Different names same shít?

Obviously some of these muppets have to see cell time. Whatabout the debt? Personally I would have let Anglo fail while shoring up the other banks. I would also change how government is run in this country. I'd get rid of proportional representation for a start. It's perfect for parish pump politics. I'd also change how ministers are appointed. As it stands very very few(if any) of our ministers are experts on the portfolios they're given. I'd completely restructure the civil service. Cut out the dead wood and dead money. Ditto for the health service.

ODS

Wibbs, you make a lot of sound points there - and I agree with many of them, such as after Easter '16 and the way it was handled by the brits, the conditions so created became a perfect storm.

However, perhaps it is too much emphasis that is placed on how the killings of the 1916 leaders in terms of how the population subsequently reacted. Sure it was the lit match - however it would most likely have been of little consequence had the socio economic conditions not been the tinder. And even then, after '16, it was only with the continued denial of the democratically long expressed wish of the majority of voters for management of their own affairs...

My point being, this seems to be where we are heading again - a governance lacking a credible mandate acting against the wishes of the vast majority of its own electorate, without holding to account those that created the mess. That to my mind increasingly looks like a government that lacks legitimacy.

So is there going to be some sort of 'match' that sparks before change occurs?

By the way, has anybody else heard the rumours about the army and gardai training together for purposes of crowd / riot control?

Wibbs

ODS wrote: »

But today more massive losses will be announced at Anglo, where it is heading north of 35 b at cost to the exchequer, after we were lied to that it would cost 4 b :mad:

And again nothing will happen.

As a people we were sold a pup

Not quite. We bought a pup. We never asked how much is that doggy in the window. We are as responsible as the morons who led us. Who is more foolish? The fool r the one who follows him?

Prior to '97 Albania wasn't known as a rebellious country.

Eh not quite. The Albanian's have rebelled many times against quite a few foes. Way more than us.

bullpost

The only ones that can really change this situation are the young.

FF has the rest of the country under some sort of spell that I don't understand but its pretty powerful mumbo.

The FF cute hoorism is like a cancer in this country and must be replaced by the young with something more substantial.

Paradoxically the really old are the only ones who have showed any cojones recently when they marched on the Dail.

Unfortunately most of the younger generation seem to have more pressing priorities such as facebook these days.

ODS

Wibbs wrote: »

The other issue of course is what do you do after? Lets say it's Viva la Revolution next Tuesday, then what? What do you replace these structures and some of the morons and criminals in them with? More of the same? Different names same shít?

Obviously some of these muppets have to see cell time. Whatabout the debt? Personally I would have let Anglo fail while shoring up the other banks. I would also change how government is run in this country. I'd get rid of proportional representation for a start. It's perfect for parish pump politics. I'd also change how ministers are appointed. As it stands very very few(if any) of our ministers are experts on the portfolios they're given. I'd completely restructure the civil service. Cut out the dead wood and dead money. Ditto for the health service.

Wibbs, let me know if you are ever running for office - I completely agree with you!

Ireland Inc needs serious strategic and structural reform - state paid functionaires, be they elected or full-time, need to be accountable. Equally agree regarding ending the geographic clientelism, whether it be local authorities collecting 'development' levies for their own use, or whether it be ministerial appointments made simply on the basis of accidental geographic selection rather than aptitude.

Like you I suspect, I much rather reform to revolution - as often with the latter, further mess and muppets simply emerge. Problem is revolution often occurs when reform has been thwarted - as has and is happening in this state. I don't want revolution but I fear that it is increasingly likely if accountability and reform are being stymied - particularly when this is to the benefit of the financial retrofitting of politically well connected players...

CJhaughey

ODS wrote: »

By the way, has anybody else heard the rumours about the army and gardai training together for purposes of crowd / riot control?

I believe the Army has a good stock of Riot-control gear bought quite recently.
I don't for a minute think they will have to use it.
The population is too passive.

ODS

Wibbs wrote: »

We bought a pup. We never asked how much is that doggy in the window. We are as responsible as the morons who led us. Who is more foolish? The fool r the one who follows him?

Not I lord copper, speak for yourself if you did - for my own part I actively disagreed with the maladministration of the state as it was happening, and tried to play my own part in preventing some of the mess - and at not an insignificant cost to my own career. Probably would have been better if I had been proven wrong...

ODS

CJhaughey wrote: »

I believe the Army has a good stock of Riot-control gear bought quite recently.
I don't for a minute think they will have to use it.
The population is too passive.

I heard something along those lines as well. Convenient the entire army is now being held within the country - could it be that peace-keeping may have to be done at home?

Certainly sounds as if a social insurance policy is being put in place by those that give the orders...

I am hearing Wicklow is being used as a location for training with the gardai - but the terrain of Glen of Imaal doesn't exactly strike me as the best setting in which to train for urban riots

ejmaztec

The government's even trying to amend the the bankruptcy laws, so that their arse-licking crooked chums will be back in business in 6 years instead of 12.

pickarooney

Wibbs wrote: »

It very nearly didnt happen. It was as much to do with woeful misreading by the British of the feelings on the street and how they reacted to it. If they had handled things better, especially after the 1916 rebellion, I'd give at least even odds we'd still have a foreign monarch on our coin.

I bet a shiny euro you have the king of Spain or Belgium somewhere in your pocket

If nobody was prepared to stand up and be counted during the 'good times' - and let's face it, every one of us knew that the Celtic Tiger was a great big piss-filled balloon - instead sucking the diseased marrow of the beast, then how does anyone expect that they will now. Every idiot who spent money he didn't have is to blame for the mess, yet somehow one or two bankers and ministers get all the abuse now. People won't revolt because they're apathetic, certainly, the same apathy that allowed the monstrous charade of wealth to continue for so long.

ODS

Wibbs wrote:

If they had handled things better, especially after the 1916 rebellion, I'd give at least even odds we'd still have a foreign monarch on our coin.

pickarooney wrote: »

I bet a shiny euro you have the king of Spain or Belgium somewhere in your pocket

Off topic, just as a point of info, we almost did end up with a foreign monarch on our coinage after 1916 - as was wished for by some of the Irish Republicans :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Joachim_of_Prussia

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pickarooney wrote: »

I bet a shiny euro you have the king of Spain or Belgium somewhere in your pocket

If nobody was prepared to stand up and be counted during the 'good times' - and let's face it, every one of us knew that the Celtic Tiger was a great big piss-filled balloon - instead sucking the diseased marrow of the beast, then how does anyone expect that they will now. Every idiot who spent money he didn't have is to blame for the mess, yet somehow one or two bankers and ministers get all the abuse now. People won't revolt because they're apathetic, certainly, the same apathy that allowed the monstrous charade of wealth to continue for so long.

In fairness, not every idiot who spent will be blamed out by the governement. I agree, they dug their own graves, bu tthey certainly have a right to pissed off with pool management (unless they voted FF, in which yeah - fvck 'em!)

SugarHigh

I love how people think that a revolt would solve anything. The constant rioting in Greece just made their problems worse while we have been internationally praised for taking the correct measures.

The_Minister

Wibbs wrote: »

We bent over for the English, we bent over even further for the church, so it doesn't come as a shock that we bend over for these people. As a nation we have very bendy backs.

If by 'bent over for the English' you mean 'had a bloody rebellion every 50 or so years' then you are correct - otherwise no.

It's also worth noting that one of the reasons we were so attached to the Church is that so many clergymen lost their lives opposing the British and made themselves targets by campaigning for land reform. Whatever about the modern church, the Church from 1600s to about 1850 was very positive for the Irish people.

dasdog

SugarHigh wrote: »

I love how people think that a revolt would solve anything. The constant rioting in Greece just made their problems worse while we have been internationally praised for taking the correct measures.

Correct measures my hole. Nothing serious has happened austerity wise yet. The upcoming budget will hurt a lot of people and yet barely put a dent in to the defecit (another €3bn needed?). We are on the road to a soverign default next year but I'm guessing the ECB will step in and assist or the € project is in very serious trouble. The people who got us in to this mess are the ones trying to get us out and they haven't a fvking clue what they are doing.

Stockholm Syndrome is a phrase that was mentioned last night and it best sums up our governments dealings. Rioting is not the solution but when people cannot heat homes/buy food/petrol etc they will stop being docile and get very angry. At the moment I think heads are still very firmly shoved in the sand.