Myers: "Wind power will return us to the early Middle Ages"

Heroditas

spacetweek wrote: »

We don't use either pounds or therms.

Wholesale gas prices in Ireland are quoted using therms and pounds sterling.
This is because Irish gas is, for all intents and purposes, part of the British market.

Aidan1

If the clearing price is greater than the guaranteed REFIT subsidy, the renewable generators get the larger amount.

REFIT is paid to suppliers, not to generators. There may be some sharing of the upside, but that will be down to individual PPAs.

The way the market operates here, the wholesale price of electricity will not drop because it's linked to the most expensive generator that is called on at any given time.

I was keeping it simple for people - the mechanism I was referring to was the PSO. In the last PSO period, wind cancelled out the Peat PSO, thus keeping down the price to consumers. In time (just over 9 years) this will be less relevant, but for the moment wind can hold the domestic bill down (if not the SMP itself). Even after that period, REFIT limits the effect wind can have on the SEM price in that context (again, I know, this is before you consider priority dispatch issues and grid rollout), were fossil prices to be low (your example is the classic case as to why diversity of generation is a good thingin our market btw).

Jim Martin

In a recent submission to the Mt. Callan planning application to Clare Co. Co. (Planning File Ref. No. 109), the DEH&LG stated that Hen Harriers require a minimum of 250m distance from turbines when foraging. I feel that this a very important point which has repercussions for any wind farm applications in areas where Hen Harriers nest & forage.

Another nail in the coffin!

OurLadyofKnock

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's quite a lot of words just to say nothing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpzYlYCBkVU

Jim Martin

Jim Martin wrote: »

In a recent submission to the Mt. Callan planning application to Clare Co. Co. (Planning File Ref. No. 109), the DEH&LG stated that Hen Harriers require a minimum of 250m distance from turbines when foraging. I feel that this a very important point which has repercussions for any wind farm applications in areas where Hen Harriers nest & forage.

Another nail in the coffin!

Sorry, what I should actually have said was:

"In a recent submission to the Mt. Callan planning application to Clare Co. Co. (Planning File Ref. No. 109), the DEH&LG stated that 'it is to be noted that recent research indicates that the foraging activity of hen harriers can be adversely affected at a distance of as much as 250m from individual wind turbines'. I feel that this is a very important point which has repercussions for any wind farm applications in areas where Hen Harriers nest & forage."

Sponge Bob

Jim Martin wrote: »

hen harriers can be adversely affected at a distance of as much as 250m from individual wind turbines'. I feel that this is a very important point

This is your second post today about Hen Harriers.

FreudianSlippers

mgmt wrote: »

Throw a couple of brownouts and blackouts into that equation.

It's not that hard to understand that more than one source of energy will be necessary. Wind alone will not be the solution, but a variety of green energy production sources used together to replace our dangerously outdated method of burning oil and gas.

irishben

can someone tell me why wave power is not being utilized more the wind?!
Wave power would be constant, I mean the tides never die down like wind.

Sponge Bob

irishben wrote: »

can someone tell me why wave power is not being utilized more the wind?!
Wave power would be constant, I mean the tides never die down like wind.

1. There is a difference between WAVE and TIDAL technologies.
2. Neither is mature other than certain classes of tidal barrages that are not really feasible in Ireland.

mgmt

irishben wrote: »

can someone tell me why wave power is not being utilized more the wind?!
Wave power would be constant, I mean the tides never die down like wind.

There is a tidal turbine at Strangford Lough. Not much suitible places in Ireland for a tridal barrage due to insufficient head differences and location issues.

Wave power is a con, imo. Structures have to be massive to capture the required kinetic energy to be beneficial. Placing such devices in the sea will almost always be destroyed by the destructive forces of the oceans.

Some land-based devices have been developed though, such as the limpet. IMO these are also non-starters as they require massive investment for very little electricity output. Wave power is just an easy opportunity for university academics to lobby for government grants. Wave power will never become mainstream.

mgmt

OisinT wrote: »

It's not that hard to understand that more than one source of energy will be necessary. Wind alone will not be the solution, but a variety of green energy production sources used together to replace our dangerously outdated method of burning oil and gas.

Nuclear power is the only proven green alternative. Wishing really hard and pouring billions into Wind Power will not make it work.

FreudianSlippers

But is nuclear the ONLY option? I don't think so. Nuclear, yes!
But why not use it with wind and get rid of oil & gas completely?

Zen65

irishben wrote: »

can someone tell me why wave power is not being utilized more the wind?!
Wave power would be constant, I mean the tides never die down like wind.

Wave power has been researched for as long as wind, but to date there is no generator anywhere in the world producing commercial electricity from wave energy.

The sea is a very harsh environment, and no existing technology can economically produce electricity from that energy source.


Cheers,

Z

mgmt

OisinT wrote: »

But is nuclear the ONLY option? I don't think so. Nuclear, yes!
But why not use it with wind and get rid of oil & gas completely?

Sigh...

You cannot rely on wind to be available and in sufficient quantities when you need it.

FreudianSlippers

mgmt wrote: »

Sigh...

You cannot rely on wind to be available and in sufficient quantities when you need it.

Clearly you're so anti-wind that you cannot even comprehend when someone agrees with you if they mention utilising wind power when/if it is available?

Energy can come from wind - perhaps not alone, but why not utilise it as well as other major sources such as nuclear?

Sponge Bob

Nuclear is the only feasible alternative for the next 20 -30 years and by all means let us see how tidal technologies improve over that time. Wave, as mgmt explained, has survivability issues. Another interesting one is "dynamic tidal power" but at many €bns per plant for something the size of a Nuke let us see how the Chinese succeed with one of them first

mgmt

OisinT wrote: »

Clearly you're so anti-wind that you cannot even comprehend when someone agrees with you if they mention utilising wind power when/if it is available?

Energy can come from wind - perhaps not alone, but why not utilise it as well as other major sources such as nuclear?

I want energy independence as much as anyone else.

Nuclear power plants are only useful for baseload generation. You also need reliable generation capacity for peak time electricity requirements. You cannot depend on wind power for this. You cannot shutdown nuclear power plants when ever the wind picks up, they have long start up times.

losthorizon

mgmt wrote: »

and taxpayers are losing their ESB connections (900 a month) because the government are forcing surcharges to subsidise wind focking power.

And I am paying huge subsidies to pay out to former private companies Anglo-Irish Bank, AIB, Bank of Ireland etc who came running to the government demanding state aid. These self same institutions who lectured to us about private enterprise. This is why people are losing their connections, its nothing to do with wind power. You do not rely on one single supply source - you have many. Wind would be one of them among many. And you try not to totally rely on other countrys as was found out by those nations who rely on Russian gas supplies recently.

FreudianSlippers

mgmt wrote: »

I want energy independence as much as anyone else.

Nuclear power plants are only useful for baseload generation. You also need reliable generation capacity for peak time electricity requirements. You cannot depend on wind power for this. You cannot shutdown nuclear power plants when ever the wind picks up, they have long start up times.

But what I'm asking is what else do we use? I understand that wind is not reliable, but it is a source of energy... one source to be used in combination with others.

mgmt

losthorizon wrote: »

And I am paying huge subsidies to pay out to former private companies Anglo-Irish Bank, AIB, Bank of Ireland etc who came running to the government demanding state aid. These self same institutions who lectured to us about private enterprise. This is why people are losing their connections, its nothing to do with wind power. You do not rely on one single supply source - you have many. Wind would be one of them among many. And you try not to totally rely on other countrys as was found out by those nations who rely on Russian gas supplies recently.

Propping up the Irish banking sector does not warrant supporting another folly.

Sponge Bob

you cannot 'rely' on wind for anything.

we have 1800MW of installed plant in Ireland

It averages 31% efficiency = 600mw
It peaks at 60% = 1200mw on occasion.
It then drops as low as 1% sub 10MW with alarming frequency

Therefore if you ( on average) 'expect' 600MW from wind you must install 600MW of backup with it, typically fast spin up gas.

If we want 2000MW of wind power we must reasonably install 6000MW of wind and 2000MW of Gas to deliver 2000MW guaranteed. This would cost €12bn ( wind) + €2bn (gas) ...crudely.

If we want 2000MW of Nuclear we would need to install c 2800MW of Plant in 4 x 700MW units with one unit assumed being serviced at all times but working sometimes. That would cost around €10bn-€12bn