Flash and one mans phobia.

Trev M

I'd like to get some thoughts on Flash - I rarely use it but as Im doing more and more bits and bobs I know Im gonna have to get a decent one where low light means its an absolute requirement in order to get desired results. i.e fully illumintaed subject matter. Im thinkin a Canon 430EX.

(I dont do weddings, no plans to, would hate to do them, too much pressure, dealing with stressed out people etc so not an issue here)

To explain were Im coming from on this - Ive looked at a few "Strobist" sites and honestly I think some of the shots look ehh ... not nice.

Ive gone through flickr groups and jesus there's some blue rinse jobs in there for sure. I much prefer natural looking light (even low light at gigs for example where you might be temtped to blast away) I'd rather have a low lit shot with atmosphere to be honest and avoid making a sap of myself with a flashed up horrible rabbit in the headlights thing goin on.:D

Maybe a lot of people go over board with the flash work, or maybe I just havent trained my eye properly but whatever it is I just dont like the look of a lot of flashed photos, I realise Im probably against the grain here...its just that whole balloon of artificial light over blown all over the shop look .... some of the outdoor stuff is just the worst ....I liken it to watching TV in your back garden on a sunny day. Even the stuff on Canons own site used as promo shots just doesnt do it for me?

I was wondering if anyone has had this similar "phobia" and over come it? Perhaps its like HDR for some people but to a lesser extent haha ? To balance it out I have seen some nice shots with flash but for the most part Im not into it.

Your thoughts ?

Misa-san

I'd be the same man, I like natural light. I feel no need to creat my own most of the time. Sure in a few cases, a little bit of fill-in would be nice. But 9 times out of 10, I'd just prefer to capture the light that's there; something about a lot of flash photography I don't like.

Sure it can be done well and it can look nice, but I, personally, don't like flash. It's too unnatural.

DaireQuinlan

A lot of the 'strobist' stuff and its ilk IS completely overblown. The flickr crowd in particular seemed to go nuts for it. My favourite all time combination is over lighting everything and then whacking the clarity slider all the way to 11 for that super leet strobist look.

Good lighting ought to never intrude on the shot. Think of soft window sky-light and how good that makes a shot look, then think of how you can actually reproduce that with softboxes or umbrellas so that the subject is lit in the same subtle way. Or play around with using the sun as a key light and then fill using a strobe just to bring up the shadows a little. There are tons of ways of creatively and nicely using artificial light that looks nothing like those crazy over-lighters.

There are people who profess to hate strobes and flashes and never use them, I'd argue that they're people who've never really taken the time to learn how to light effectively. I'm one of them. Stupid strobes ! Natural light FTW !

FoxT

I use a 580EX that I got second hand, with my 40D, and I am glad i got it. Great for all manner of indoor/people shots, and occasionally fill light in very sunny, contrasty conditions. The 40D has a built-in flash which I rarely use as the light output is too harsh for most situations. I am not sure what you are planning to use it for but I'd recommend you get a used unit that works with E-TTL & experiment.

- FoxT

Misa-san

Here here! Natural light all the way, down with strobes :P

That said - give me a softbox and I'll be happy. When I have shot in studio, I had softboxes on the lights; much prefer it, it looks a little more natural and not as artificial.

Trev M

Yeah soft box would be more to my liking, some great stuff from folks on here but I guess it has its obvious mobility problems .

In terms of why i feel I might need one, two reasons, one is practical the other is more creative .

1. Im in the process of carving a little niche for myself doing some engineering/technical type photogrpahy...this involves shooting mountings, frames, sub structures, components, racking, cabling, panels and the like... a lot of unexciting stuff but its a job that needs doing and has to be presented in a certain aesthetically pleasing way.

2. Portraits / Stagework for theater performances.


I think I would be foolish to completely dismiss a flash for the applications above if ya see what Im saying? Built in flash on 7d is wogious.

DaireQuinlan

Trev M wrote: »

1. Im in the process of carving a little niche for myself doing some engineering/technical type photogrpahy...this involves shooting mountings, frames, sub structures, components, racking, cabling, panels and the like... a lot of unexciting stuff but its a job that needs doing, but has to be presented in a certain aesthetically pleasing way.

Whatever about the second one, if only for the one above I'd say you need to get up to speed as to how to light stuff properly. I'm guessing technical photography isn't about the aesthetics so much as it is about documenting the subject ? I'd say a good grasp of how to light the things would stand you in good stead there. Can't always rely on natural light ...

CabanSail

I like it when the use of flash is not apparent in the shot. This can be acheived if you understand the lighting & how to control it.

There is a very good tutorial or Ronan Pallisers Blog on ways this can be achieved.

Trev M

Hi Daire think Brochures, Manuals, Marketing material and stands .... sure I can get an industrial halogen fired at a bunch of fibre optic but will they want the result on the front of the company annual report . NOPE ! The pics need to be to a certain pleasing level.

Anyone can light a bunch of equipment and click , whats required here is a little more subtle.

As an example ....

Its this

( A bit of effort)

V

this

(No effort)


Or it could be an installation of any kind , piping , trunking in any kind of uber modern facility to the dingeist bung hole of a place in the arse of nowhere.

Trev M

Appreciate the feedback by the way :D:D

Trev M

CabanSail wrote: »

I like it when the use of flash is not apparent in the shot. This can be acheived if you understand the lighting & how to control it.

There is a very good tutorial or Ronan Pallisers Blog on ways this can be achieved.

Great link sir! Thanks for that.

DougL

Learn to use the walls and ceiling to your advantage, and you will get much more natural looking lighting out of a flash. Also, using something to reflect a little light forward is useful too. I use the back of a business card stuffed into the diffuser slot in my 430EX.

Using a flash is better than badly lit photographs when there is no available ambient light.

-Doug

Fajitas!

I'm a fan of natural light. A big fan. Give me a 1.2 or a 1.4 lens over a portable studio kit any day. Throw in a reflector at most, and I'm in business.

I also dislike 99% of 'strobism' - It's usually rather naff. Or just plain horrible.

Studio lighting, in a studio, however, with the right experience can look fantastic. It does take some experience to get used to it all, but it's worth it in the end.

On camera flash has its uses. Events in particular.

It's a question of taste and experience. Find out what you like, learn how to do it, and learn how to do it good.

There is a very good tutorial or Ronan Pallisers Blog on ways this can be achieved.

I'm sorry, but it's incredibly apparent there's a flash being used in that. It leaves a huge difference between the natural light and the strobe - Which is a look I hate!

That said - give me a softbox and I'll be happy. When I have shot in studio, I had softboxes on the lights; much prefer it, it looks a little more natural and not as artificial.

Phwoar!

Trev M

It is apparent a flash was used but some of the info contained within I found useful coming at this from a complete novice perspective.

Trev M

The thoughts of dishing out a pile of wedge for more lighting gear isnt all that appealing....Id rather buy a lense than a light :D:D

thefly

Flash is the most important thing in a studio. Good flash skills set you apart from other Photographers

http://pix.ie/thefly/album/382923

I have posted this before but it really does highlight the importance of having a good understanding of flash. Particularly for commercial shots.


Also, what do you do when there is not enough natural light, of you have no tripod? Or what if the sun is gleaming out and there's shadows every where? Surely you need fill in flash then!!!!!

If you are going to buy one get the 580ex, Best flash on the market

DaireQuinlan

Trev M wrote: »

Hi Daire think Brochures, Manuals, Marketing material and stands .... sure I can get an industrial halogen fired at a bunch of fibre optic but will they want the result on the front of the company annual report . NOPE ! The pics need to be to a certain pleasing level.

Ah right, gotcha. Sounds like quite the challenge, every shot could be completely different and need it's own setup. I'd say even more so then you probably need to get up to speed and learn how to use those artificial sources really well. Natural light presumably won't always be available ...

Trev M

Aye youre on my wavelength now alright Daire, so far Ive coped ok-ish :rolleyes: but Ive only done a couple of small jobs that have resulted in a couple of requests....Im on the ...will I go for it and build upon it or will I not bother heh heh

In terms of teh more creative side though Im all for learning about the lighting techniques , soft boxes etc too but dont imagine I'll have too many opportunities come my way .

mehfesto

I think flash has a bad rep because people who initially jump into it (myself included), don't fully understand the flash is not a simple object. It's another piece of technology to master. You can 'get by' with the basics, but like the camera itself, the more you know about it the better you're results will be.

Todd Owyoung is a great example of how small flashes can be used well, outside the studio and without intrusion. The fourth shot in his 'portraits' gallery is just stunning.

There's no reason for 'natural only' attitudes, if you fully understand the flash. And while I'm lost in a sea of f/stops and fraction maths I'm not going to give up on it for the sake on an easy ride. - Sometimes you NEED a flash when photographing.

Thecageyone

Another vote for Natural light > Flash here. But I am awaiting my first ever flash-gun, should arrive tomorrow [after being held up by customs ... grumble ... ]

I plan to use it mostly for macro shots, and will play around with it for portraits too. But I reckon Window/natural light + reflector produces generally nicer results.

Fajitas!

mehfesto wrote: »

I think flash has a bad rep because people who initially jump into it (myself included), don't fully understand the flash is not a simple object. It's another piece of technology to master. You can 'get by' with the basics, but like the camera itself, the more you know about it the better you're results will be.

Todd Owyoung is a great example of how small flashes can be used well, outside the studio and without intrusion. The fourth shot in his 'portraits' gallery is just stunning.

There's no reason for 'natural only' attitudes, if you fully understand the flash. And while I'm lost in a sea of f/stops and fraction maths I'm not going to give up on it for the sake on an easy ride. - Sometimes you NEED a flash when photographing.

I wouldn't really agree - I have a very good understanding of both on camera flash and in studio. Yes, it can be fantastic, and can give you amazing results, but I have a preference for shooting in natural light and the results it provides me. I don't do it for an easy ride, I do it because I prefer the results.

And yes, there definitely are occasions when flash is 100% needed.

Thecageyone

I don't think anyone looks for an easy ride, not anyone who is really into photography at least. I like a challenge, and I'm looking forward to learning how best to put the strobe to good use.

But ... I know before i even begin with it, that Naturally lit portraits are usually nicer. I know from looking at my contacts images, and searching through those strobist groups.

Trev M

Thecageyone wrote: »

Another vote for Natural light > Flash here. But I am awaiting my first ever flash-gun, should arrive tomorrow [after being held up by customs ... grumble ... ]

I plan to use it mostly for macro shots, and will play around with it for portraits too. But I reckon Window/natural light + reflector produces generally nicer results.

Lok forward to seeing your results... also a useful tool for momentarily stunning ape like security gaurds heh heh

thefly

Thecageyone wrote: »

Another vote for Natural light > Flash here. But I am awaiting my first ever flash-gun, should arrive tomorrow [after being held up by customs ... grumble ... ]

I plan to use it mostly for macro shots, and will play around with it for portraits too. But I reckon Window/natural light + reflector produces generally nicer results.

You're not the only one to say this. What do you do where there is not enough natural light or theres no light at all!!!!

Trev M

mehfesto wrote: »

I think flash has a bad rep because people who initially jump into it (myself included), don't fully understand the flash is not a simple object. It's another piece of technology to master. You can 'get by' with the basics, but like the camera itself, the more you know about it the better you're results will be.

Todd Owyoung is a great example of how small flashes can be used well, outside the studio and without intrusion. The fourth shot in his 'portraits' gallery is just stunning.

There's no reason for 'natural only' attitudes, if you fully understand the flash. And while I'm lost in a sea of f/stops and fraction maths I'm not going to give up on it for the sake on an easy ride. - Sometimes you NEED a flash when photographing.

Accept what your saying there, as indicated in my original post I have seen some stuff that has appealed to me,

mehfesto wrote: »

but like the camera itself, the more you know about it the better you're results will be

Makes a lot of sense I was amazed at what I got out of my now departed 450D , served me well once I learned the ins and outs.

Thecageyone

If I'd had a flash gun at time they'd have accused me of being a pap perhaps

I won't even know where to begin with it tbh, but I am looking forward to playing with my new toy getting to grips with my new gear

sheesh

Does no one bounce the flash off the ceiling so its not as harsh? I think it can look well for photos of social events but would not rate it for what could be termed proper portraits

we did a couple of sessions in our local camera club with a studio setup and I learned that that sort of photography is hard


natural light is great if you can get it.

Trev M

Heh I see we are contacts on Pix.ie Cagey .... I'll be watching my friend, I'll be watching ..waiting...oh yeah waiting across from a cafe near you hahahah:D

Thecageyone

sheesh wrote: »

Does no one bounce the flash off the ceiling so its not as harsh?

I plan to.

The one I ordered has a 360 degree swivel head, and of course, points straight up too, when needed. I'm looking into getting a small soft box to go over it too. I really don't like harsh light. I imagine I'll mostly use it on lower settings.

thefly

anyone interested in flash should read this

http://www.scantips.com/lights/flashbasics.html

The reason I think most of you are put off by flash is that you have seen sonme crappy flash use. As someone has said before, it's a serious bit of equipment and unless you fully understand it your shots are going to look sh!te

DougL

thefly wrote: »

If you are going to buy one get the 580ex, Best flash on the market

Yep, agreed. If I could go back in time and buy the 580ex instead of the 430ex, I would jump at the chance.

DougL

Thecageyone wrote: »

But I reckon Window/natural light + reflector produces generally nicer results.

...when available.

Thecageyone

DougL wrote: »

...when available.

No matter the weather, there is always natural light available. Gotta love primes.

Trev M

DougL wrote: »

Yep, agreed. If I could go back in time and buy the 580ex instead of the 430ex, I would jump at the chance.

Aahhh S*it* ya had to say that didnt ya.... is it really worth the extra sheckles....?

thefly

DougL wrote: »

Yep, agreed. If I could go back in time and buy the 580ex instead of the 430ex, I would jump at the chance.

I asked someone who had the 430 what they thought before I bought my 580 and they said exactly what you said.

DaireQuinlan

Thecageyone wrote: »

No matter the weather, there is always natural light available. Gotta love primes.

Except at night. And indoors. Or in the bowels of some company server lab where the OP has to produce some nicely lit shots of the current server array. And about one thousand and one other situations ...

DougL

Trev M wrote: »

Aahhh S*it* ya had to say that didnt ya.... is it really worth the extra sheckles....?

Yes. I borrowed one for my sister's wedding. I have regretted my 430EX purchase ever since

-Doug

jpb1974

I had me head up me arse once and there was no natural light.

(magicbastarder replies "only once?")

Thecageyone

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Except at night. And indoors. Or in the bowels of some company server lab where the OP has to produce some nicely lit shots of the current server array. And about one thousand and one other situations ...

I guess that's why he wants a flash gun then, yeah? ...


I was thinking more personally. Never 'needed' off cam-flash to date. If I was stuck, I simply used on-board flash and made the necessary adjustments in Lightroom later. there is always a way out. Use the noggin'

Trev M

jpb1974 wrote: »

I had me head up me arse once and there was no natural light.

Whhuahhhahhhah legend.... no one on this thread expected that :D:

DougL

Thecageyone wrote: »

If I was stuck, I simply used on-board flash and made the necessary adjustments in Lightroom later. there is always a way out. Use the noggin'

Yeah, nothing quite as appealing as that deer-in-headlights look...

Thecageyone

jpb: You wanted pictures from inside your anus?? ... hmmm ...

Thecageyone

DougL wrote: »

Yeah, nothing quite as appealing as that deer-in-headlights look...

Diffusers. Flash compensation. Lightroom. Sorted.

You seem to think I'm anti-flash altogether or something? Did you miss the bit where I said I'm awaiting one to arrive tomorrow?

Trev M

Lets not get into who thinks what other people think they think about something and stay on the aule topic , suggestions advice recommendations gooood , pshco analysis of each others post baaad:D:D

See smileys - friends all round- no ones anus needs to come into at all.

jpb1974

There's some bloke called Joe McNally I think that does technical books on flash usage.

Back before I discovered my true self I bought one and got pizzed off with it after about 20 pages.

I can dig it up and send it onto you for a lend if you want... I'd allow you to keep it but I'm figuring someday I'll leave my job which I hate and become a professional wedding photographer <insert rolling tumbleweed gif here>

The only problem with it is that the book is based around Nikon flash guns.. no See You Next Tuesday told me that before I bought it... but a flash gun is a flash gun and it should all be relative when the dust settles.

Drop me a PM if you want... you can hang onto it and give me 5% of all your product photography income if you get good at it (I jest about the 5%... 2 will do).

Thecageyone

Trev M wrote: »

Lets not get into who thinks what other people think they think about something and stay on the aule topic , suggestions advice recommendations gooood , pshco analysis of each others post baaad:D:D

See smileys - friends all round- no ones anus needs to come into at all.

Hey, I thought the anus joke was funny!!

Debate is good. And difference of opinion. Or we'd all shoot the same, eh? I'm interested in what others think about flash-tography As i said, will be trying it out very soon. It'll probably wreck my head and it'll end up gathering dust, but we shall see.

DougL

Thecageyone wrote: »

It'll probably wreck my head and it'll end up gathering dust, but we shall see.

Flash is absolutely useless. Trust me. Oh, by the way, if you need a home for that flash...

dave66

Fajitas! wrote: »

I wouldn't really agree - I have a very good understanding of both on camera flash and in studio. Yes, it can be fantastic, and can give you amazing results, but I have a preference for shooting in natural light and the results it provides me. I don't do it for an easy ride, I do it because I prefer the results.

And yes, there definitely are occasions when flash is 100% needed.

I would be of a similar opinion, certainly there are times with flash is absolutely necessary, I do prefer to not use it. I personally hate on camera flash and would only use it for a "snap" as opposed to when making a photograph.

Recently I got the opportunity to see reflectors in use and found it fascinating just how much light they can add when there appeared to be so little light.

I used to have a v.nice 5400HS from Minolta, while I very rarely used it (hence sold it to fund purchase partially fund of a DSLR some years ago), I now do find myself in situations (again rarely) when I wish I had a decent flash in my bag. I find it very frustrating that they are so expensive and when you are using Sony bodies, that bit more difficult to pickup second hand.

For me it's like many things related to photography, much of the time it's personal preference, but you really can't say never.

Trev M

jpb1974 wrote: »

There's some bloke called Joe McNally I think that does technical books on flash usage.

Back before I discovered my true self I bought one and got pizzed off with it after about 20 pages.

I can dig it up and send it onto you for a lend if you want... I'd allow you to keep it but I'm figuring someday I'll leave my job which I hate and become a professional wedding photographer.

The only problem with it is that the book is based around Nikon flash guns.. no See You Next Tuesday told me that before I bought it... but a flash gun is a flash gun and it should all be relative when the dust settles.

Drop me a PM if you want... you can hang onto it and give me 5% of all your product photography income if you get good at it (I jest about the 5%... 2 will do).

Heh heh define "good" ...

Id be more interested in the book about finding "ones true self" to be honest, if I got that right I wouldnt be bothered me arse taking pictures ... I reckon Id be off mining diamonds in some tropical paradise where there is a shortage of manly men and they need a new emporer and I could rule the land with my forty wives and... I mean, I really feel Im destined for something more...but thanks for the offer , Im not a read the manual type of learner , I usually like to make a balls of something many times over to learn anything properly

Trev M

Thecageyone wrote: »

Hey, I thought the anus joke was funny!!

Debate is good. And difference of opinion. Or we'd all shoot the same, eh? I'm interested in what others think about flash-tography As i said, will be trying it out very soon. It'll probably wreck my head and it'll end up gathering dust, but we shall see.

OK, I'll conceed you made an effort there in the humourous spirit of the thread...If you buy it you'll probably end up blasting teh crap out of everything and end up with load of shockers.... you can change your name to "caged lightning" , the slaggin will be great :D

Dero

Hi.
I don't post a lot here (not even sure if I've ever posted in this forum before), but I thought I'd share this link. It's from a wedding photographer, so its content is obviously very wedding-centric. I've never photographed a wedding, nor do I ever plan to, but this article has tons of useful info for learning flash photography and how to balance it with available light (be that natural or artificial).

flash photography techniques