Cycling on Footpaths - last word

HivemindXX

el Bastardo wrote: »

It's that old conundrum of motorists telling you to get off the road and pedestrians telling you to get off the footpath - You can't win, so why bother trying?!

Motorists are wrong and pedestrians are right. You win on the road and lose on the path.

el Bastardo wrote: »

Sure, but other vehicles get there faster in free flowing traffic. Where I live, I'd have to cycle up several hills and go well out of my way instead of taking a quickcut down a one way.

If you want to do that you can walk your bike.

CurtisPadd

this is a debate that I think about every day! I cycle and drive in dublin most days. Cycling on the road is not safe but i'm not prepared to give it up!, stupid I know. I'm very surprised more people are not knocked down or killed. When cycling I use both road, token cycle paths and footpaths. The footpath use is only a recent development but it is my safest option. I got a big bell to let people know im coming, even on areas that are dedicated to cycling, people are startled and get annoyed!
It is very aggressive out there and us cyclist must hold our own, Have you ever tried making a legal right turn on a bike? most motorists will find it very cheeky for a mere pedler hold up a line of traffic until until it safe to turn.
The only place I feel safe cycling in cycle lanes is at the bottom of O'Connell St. where they have pencil cones installed. If the government were interested in getting more people out of their cars and on their bikes they need to deliniate cycle paths in this manner.
Their are so many footpaths wide enough to facilitate both pedestrians and cyclists

In summary, drivers, pedestrains and cyclists feel they own the area in which they are travelling and we all break the rules. We are all wrong and I dont see any change in culture any time soon. So in the mean time I will choose the safest route even if a few pedestrain have to move to one side in order for me to get home safely.
PC

Lumen

CurtisPadd wrote: »

we all break the rules

Speak for yourself.

Lots of people find road cycling to be perfectly safe and stress-free.

HivemindXX

CurtisPadd wrote: »

It is very aggressive out there and us cyclist must hold our own, Have you ever tried making a legal right turn on a bike? most motorists will find it very cheeky for a mere pedler hold up a line of traffic until until it safe to turn.

I do this all the time and I don't think I've ever had any grief from a motorist behind me. The problem with this maneuver is getting in to the correct position in the first place. Are you claiming that you are "holding your own" by cycling on the footpath? How are the pedestrians supposed to hold their own?

CurtisPadd wrote: »

In summary, drivers, pedestrains and cyclists feel they own the area in which they are travelling and we all break the rules. We are all wrong and I dont see any change in culture any time soon. So in the mean time I will choose the safest route even if a few pedestrain have to move to one side in order for me to get home safely.

We don't all break the rules. I think there's plenty of evidence in this thread that there are cyclists who don't feel the need to cycle on the footpath at all. Footpath cycling is certainly not the mainstream culture, I don't see how you can believe that. The vast majority of cyclists I see are on the roads.

It seems pretty common for people to think cycling (in this case just cycling on the road instead of in general) is dangerous and to express amazement that more people aren't killed. The logical conclusion surely is that it's not nearly as dangerous as you think? If you read enough comments about cycling on forums you'll find plenty of people claiming that their child/granny was nearly hit by a cyclist on the footpath so they pulled them off their bike and beat the tar out of them. Perhaps cycling on the path is not as safe as you think.

BostonB

CurtisPadd wrote: »

this is a debate that I think about every day! I cycle and drive in dublin most days. Cycling on the road is not safe but i'm not prepared to give it up!, stupid I know. I'm very surprised more people are not knocked down or killed.

That there aren't many accidents suggests its not that dangerous.

CurtisPadd wrote: »

It is very aggressive out there and us cyclist must hold our own, Have you ever tried making a legal right turn on a bike? most motorists will find it very cheeky for a mere pedler hold up a line of traffic until until it safe to turn.
The only place I feel safe cycling in cycle lanes ...

That you don't feel safe is a different thing entirely. I'm not sure why you need to hold up a line of traffic either, or that you find it hard to make a right turn. Sounds like you are cycling too slowly. Granted some roads are less suitable than others, usually because traffic is moving to fast, in which case it make sense to use slower roads, that are more suitable for cycling or that you find easier. I avoid the South Quays at Hueston Station for that reason.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

following the orders of gob****es is no way to live one's life.

True wit is nature to advantage dressed
What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed

Chips Lovell

el Bastardo wrote: »

Rubbish! Having been knocked off my bike through no fault of my own, I quickly came to the conclusion that some things are beyond my control. It's not so much a matter of my feeling safe as being safe. I do usually use the road, but as I said, there are times when it's just silly season. It's that old conundrum of motorists telling you to get off the road and pedestrians telling you to get off the footpath - You can't win, so why bother trying?!

There are risks involved in driving and walking too. There is simply no way to eliminate all risks. As Lumen pointed out, any motorist who tells you to get off the road is in the wrong.

el Bastardo wrote: »

Sure, but other vehicles get there faster in free flowing traffic. Where I live, I'd have to cycle up several hills and go well out of my way instead of taking a quickcut down a one way.

So essentially you feel the rules shouldn't apply to you because they inconvenience you?

CurtisPadd wrote: »

this is a debate that I think about every day! I cycle and drive in dublin most days. Cycling on the road is not safe but i'm not prepared to give it up!, stupid I know. I'm very surprised more people are not knocked down or killed.

You've kind of disproved your point right there. If cycling on the road weren't safe, surely it would be reflected in accident figures. It's not.

CurtisPadd wrote: »

When cycling I use both road, token cycle paths and footpaths. The footpath use is only a recent development but it is my safest option. I got a big bell to let people know im coming, even on areas that are dedicated to cycling, people are startled and get annoyed!
It is very aggressive out there and us cyclist must hold our own,

Say if I drove my car everywhere at 20kph because I felt it was "safest option" do you think that would be reasonable too?

CurtisPadd wrote: »

Have you ever tried making a legal right turn on a bike? most motorists will find it very cheeky for a mere pedler hold up a line of traffic until until it safe to turn.

Every single day. And no motorist as yet has made any objection to my making a right turn because I'm well within my rights to. What is the difference between a bike and car stopping and waiting to turn right anyway?

el Bastardo

Motorist break rules all the time, whether out of ignorance or neglect. I'm not going to allow myself to be flattened for their mistakes. I've had enough near misses to know how to avoid them. One such method involves cycling on footpaths and otherwise breaking the law on certain stretches of roadway.

Yes, it inconveniences me to take a far longer, more arduous route than necessary (unless I fancy the extra exercise). The rules need to be changed (not just for me, but for everyone )

BostonB

You've got to ask why some people have lots of near misses and other don't.

Chips Lovell

el Bastardo wrote: »

Motorist break rules all the time, whether out of ignorance or neglect. I'm not going to allow myself to be flattened for their mistakes. I've had enough near misses to know how to avoid them. One such method involves cycling on footpaths and otherwise breaking the law on certain stretches of roadway.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Therefore motorists breaking rules doesn't excuse you from doing so. If you feel you can't avoid an accident without cycling on the footpath then either a.) you're mistaken about how dangerous the road is or b.) you're cycling in such a way to put yourself in danger of an accident.

maggy_thatcher

I often see cyclists cycling on the path along the Alfie Byrne road. As a pedestrian it's really frustrating as they often fly by at speed on the narrow pathway. The road there is really wide, and if you're afraid of the road, there's a double-width cycle path on the other side of the road - pick one of those two rather than try to cram your way on to the path.

I think that most of them do it so that they can then go the wrong way down a one-way street into the DART station car park rather than going down to Clontarf Road and turning left.

Raam

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I often see cyclists cycling on the path along the Alfie Byrne road. As a pedestrian it's really frustrating as they often fly by at speed on the narrow pathway. The road there is really wide, and if you're afraid of the road, there's a double-width cycle path on the other side of the road - pick one of those two rather than try to cram your way on to the path.

I think that most of them do it so that they can then go the wrong way down a one-way street into the DART station car park rather than going down to Clontarf Road and turning left.

Dunno why they bother. That DART road is full of glass half the time.

dayshah

Why not simply allow cyclist go against the flow on one way streets.

Its what they do in other countries, and is probably more safe than a normal road as both parties can see eachother.

petethedrummer

dayshah wrote: »

Why not simply allow cyclist go against the flow on one way streets.

Its what they do in other countries, and is probably more safe than a normal road as both parties can see eachother.

Because that would be sensible. Maybe in another 10 years time we'll catch up to international best practise. We have to do it the Irish way first.

BostonB

dayshah wrote: »

Why not simply allow cyclist go against the flow on one way streets.

Its what they do in other countries, and is probably more safe than a normal road as both parties can see eachother.

A segregated lane like they do for buses ok. But otherwise I think thats insane. No one expects a cyclist to suddenly appear head on at speed. Thats why you have oncoming traffic in different lanes.

Manic Preacher

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't think anyone forgets, but people tend to flaunt rules that aren't enforced, or do all those learner drivers have an accompanying driver locked away in the trunk?

You're absolutely correct on that point. There's definitely an enforcement issue but then again I'd rather the guards dealing with really dangerous criminals rather than minor road offenses that aren't dangerous.

tomasrojo

BostonB wrote: »

A segregated lane like they do for buses ok. But otherwise I think thats insane. No one expects a cyclist to suddenly appear head on at speed. Thats why you have oncoming traffic in different lanes.

It was discussed here previously:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055839125

DirkVoodoo

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I often see cyclists cycling on the path along the Alfie Byrne road. As a pedestrian it's really frustrating as they often fly by at speed on the narrow pathway. The road there is really wide, and if you're afraid of the road, there's a double-width cycle path on the other side of the road - pick one of those two rather than try to cram your way on to the path.

I think that most of them do it so that they can then go the wrong way down a one-way street into the DART station car park rather than going down to Clontarf Road and turning left.

Any time I have headed out to Howth that cycle path on Alfie Byrne road has been full of cars parked in double file (yes, that's a row either side of the centre line) as parents go to see their kids play football. Why not just turn it into parking spaces and move the cycle lane onto the road as you have to get back onto the road anyway (and not easily) if you are heading back towards the east link.

tomasrojo

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I often see cyclists cycling on the path along the Alfie Byrne road. As a pedestrian it's really frustrating as they often fly by at speed on the narrow pathway. The road there is really wide, and if you're afraid of the road, there's a double-width cycle path on the other side of the road - pick one of those two rather than try to cram your way on to the path.

I think that most of them do it so that they can then go the wrong way down a one-way street into the DART station car park rather than going down to Clontarf Road and turning left.

If you're leaving the business park, there's no easy way to get onto the two-way cycle track, as there's no entry point, except to dismount and cross as a pedestrian, or to cycle up the footpath that exits the park, which is just as bad as cycling on the footpath that goes down to the DART station. Perhaps they're just following the cars out of the park, and then mounting the footpath as they leave the junction.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

Because that would be sensible. Maybe in another 10 years time we'll catch up to international best practise. We have to do it the Irish way first.

It's only "best practice" because you agree with it.

c0rk3r

monument wrote: »

Lol ive been cycling on this road for a month now and never noticed that sign before. I wasnt even sure it existed until today when i looked out for it. Theres 3 posts obstructing its view! a street lamp, an esb poll and a cycling+pedestrian lane poll.

I never use it anyway. Stupid ****ing lane design

mtbireland

dayshah wrote: »

Why not simply allow cyclist go against the flow on one way streets.

Its what they do in other countries, and is probably more safe than a normal road as both parties can see eachother.

If you have cycled down Harcourt Street onto the Green and down towards the Luas terminus there is a no entry sign with an exeption for cyclists and the path is a different colour brick. It then sends you off head first into the oncoming traffic on the one way street..!!! no sign telling you to dismount or stop or yeild or anything.... I've often seen taxi men swerve at bikes just to let them know they are on a one way street...!!! you then have the pedestrian lights which you can't see as they are facing the other way.... would be simple enough to paint a line on the road and stick a reverse facing signal light on one of the poles....

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

It's only "best practice" because you agree with it.

Yup. Because I'm right.:)

Well, I'm all on for whatever the Danes or Dutch do, that's if we're going to persist with segregated cycle lanes. I'm against cycle lanes in general but I suppose one would be necessary in a contra-flow one-way-street scenario.

monument

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well, I'm all on for whatever the Danes or Dutch do, that's if we're going to persist with segregated cycle lanes. I'm against cycle lanes in general but I suppose one would be necessary in a contra-flow one-way-street scenario.

Depending on the road, segregation often isn't needed for contra-flow cycle lanes, just junction treatment, warning signs etc. Although the need is there where there's a numbers of lanes in the same direction as with a few roads in Dublin. Here's some singe-lane roads with contra-flow without segregation...

Dublin:


Dublin:


Berlin, I think in a 30km zone (not 10km anyway) [note the cyclist on the footpad, thus keeping thread on topic ]:


Berlin:


Berlin, sign at t-junction showing cyclists can go both ways:


Paris:


Paris:

Dandelion6

el tonto wrote: »

Every vehicle, not just bikes, has to take a longer way around because of one way streets.

Yes and I'm sure that many of them would also go on the footpath if they could. That's beside the point. As I said, it's not a question of right or wrong but simply a matter of fact: create a lot of one-way streets and you'll find more people cycling on the footpaths. I would be surprised if planners ever took this into consideration but maybe they should.

Raam

On my way home this evening, I saw a cyclist hit out at a pedestrian who was strolling in the bike lane (I think he made contact). He then proceeded to get annoyed with other cyclists out enjoying the evening and who were blocking his way. He also shouted at a jogger who was on the other side of the bike lane (yet still in the bike lane) as he overtook the slower cyclists, whilst heading straight for other oncoming cyclists. You, sir, are an angry man.

Chips Lovell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Yes and I'm sure that many of them would also go on the footpath if they could. That's beside the point. As I said, it's not a question of right or wrong but simply a matter of fact: create a lot of one-way streets and you'll find more people cycling on the footpaths. I would be surprised if planners ever took this into consideration but maybe they should.

It's not like you're being diverted to Kinnegad or anything. The fact of the matter is that too many cyclists think the law shouldn't apply to them.

BostonB

I'm not sure its that useful comparing Ireland with somewhere like Berlin, I'm sure the rules/laws are actually enforced there. Here it would be chaos.

tomasrojo

I saw a fair bit of sidewalk-cycling in Berlin. Some salmoning as well. Not sure if it's as bad as here, as I was only there on a very short visit.

(I don't mean cycling on the cycling facilities that are up on the sidewalk, of which facility there are very many. I mean cyclists using the bit meant for pedestrians.)

monument

Last time I was there for a long weekend plus a few days, noted widespread cycling on footpaths in areas without segregated cycle lanes. It seems common place at least in areas like Kreuzberg, and Friedrichshain, but seen it in other areas as well.

It is usually with wider footpaths in most places, but also with 30km all over and what seems like more careful drivers.

Ant

@monument, thanks for those photos. I'm curious as to the locations of the two contra-flow cycle ways in Dublin. I've only ever seen the clearly demarcated contra-flow on-road cycle lanes - which in my experience are useful, effective and to be applauded.

For those cyclists who don't want to cycle the long way around one-way systems, just remember you can always walk your bike on the footpath. That way, the pedestrians won't feel aggrieved or put out.

monument

Ant wrote: »

@monument, thanks for those photos. I'm curious as to the locations of the two contra-flow cycle ways in Dublin. I've only ever seen the clearly demarcated contra-flow on-road cycle lanes - which in my experience are useful, effective and to be applauded.

For those cyclists who don't want to cycle the long way around one-way systems, just remember you can always walk your bike on the footpath. That way, the pedestrians won't feel aggrieved or put out.

One is on Usher Street just off the south quay of the same name, and the other is on the Royal Canal Bank, between the Phibsborough Road and the North Circular Road -- it skips the traffic in Phibsborough. There are apparently some other examples.

Click on the images to get to their flickr.com page and then on the side bar click on the map to see the locations.

BostonB

I pass the one on Usher Street a lot. Over the years, I've never seen a cyclist on it, at least not in the morning. Perhaps in the evenings its useful. I don't go past it in the evenings. I always wonder why the segrated cycle lane to turn right into it. Again I've never seen any cyclist in it.

Whereas, lower Bridge Street, has vastly more cyclists (its a major cyclist route) and I don't think theres even a painted lane.

ThisRegard

Raam wrote: »

On my way home this evening, I saw a cyclist hit out at a pedestrian who was strolling in the bike lane (I think he made contact). He then proceeded to get annoyed with other cyclists out enjoying the evening and who were blocking his way. He also shouted at a jogger who was on the other side of the bike lane (yet still in the bike lane) as he overtook the slower cyclists, whilst heading straight for other oncoming cyclists. You, sir, are an angry man.

Where was this Raam, the Phoenix Park ? I was on the cylce lane there a couple of weeks ago and caught up with a guy wearing full Cervelo gear from head to toe, including tights despite it being a warm and sunny evening. I was behind him and we came up behind a girl on roller blades, the twat came up beside her and gave her a shove out of his way, what a wanker I thought and myself and the roller girl exchanged that type of look. Anyway, I then caught him again and went on by. He then proceeded to dive up my inside quite stupidly as we were on the little bend just as we got to the road at the roundabout near the Castleknock gate just to get by again. He sounds like your angry man.

Raam

ThisRegard wrote: »

Where was this Raam, the Phoenix Park ? I was on the cylce lane there a couple of weeks ago and caught up with a guy wearing full Cervelo gear from head to toe, including tights despite it being a warm and sunny evening. I was behind him and we came up behind a girl on roller blades, the twat came up beside her and gave her a shove out of his way, what a wanker I thought and myself and the roller girl exchanged that type of look. Anyway, I then caught him again and went on by. He then proceeded to dive up my inside quite stupidly as we were on the little bend just as we got to the road at the roundabout near the Castleknock gate just to get by again. He sounds like your angry man.

It was on the track heading from Clontarf towards Sutton.

ThisRegard

So there's lots of angry cyclists out there, one per cycle track perhaps.

Lumen

ThisRegard wrote: »

Phoenix Park ? I was on the cylce lane there a couple of weeks ago and caught up with a guy wearing full Cervelo gear from head to toe, including tights despite it being a warm and sunny evening. I was behind him and we came up behind a girl on roller blades, the twat came up beside her and gave her a shove out of his way, what a wanker I thought and myself and the roller girl exchanged that type of look. Anyway, I then caught him again and went on by. He then proceeded to dive up my inside quite stupidly as we were on the little bend just as we got to the road at the roundabout near the Castleknock gate just to get by again. He sounds like your angry man.

That's shocking behaviour. I'd be quite tempted to pop out front and brake test the idiot.

DirkVoodoo

Turned left onto Appian way yesterday, heading towards Ranelagh. On the opposite footpath a cyclist with no lights (light was fading) and an orange high viz top was belting it along. Next thing she hops off the kerb and veers straight across the road in front of me. Maybe she has excellent peripheral vision but she didn't seem to look around. A car was approaching head on as she did this.

I was pretty stunned, on the footpath at speed, then crossing a road without looking or stopping, out in front of a car and then nearly into the side of me.

Some people really are as thick as two planks.