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Tony Blairs booky wook

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Comments

  • #502
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    It was also the far left who saw the dangers of the far right in Europe in the 1930's and went to Spain and did something about it.


  • #503
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #504
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    karma_ wrote: »
    It was also the far left who saw the dangers of the far right in Europe in the 1930's and went to Spain and did something about it.

    Oh please.


  • #505
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Denerick wrote: »
    Oh please.

    Oh please yourself. That is a solid fact, it was the Socialists and the Communists who joined the fight against Fascism first.


  • #506
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #507
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Denerick wrote: »
    Oh please.
    You could say people like my namesake saw the dangers of the far left......


  • #508
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Mao and Stalin were both brutal Communists dictators and not representative of the entire left wing and both had little to do with socialism.


  • #509
    Jeboa Safari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭Jeboa Safari


    karma_ wrote: »
    It was also the far left who saw the dangers of the far right in Europe in the 1930's and went to Spain and did something about it.

    trying to replace one oppressive regime with another...how exactly is this good?


  • #510
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Jeboa Safari wrote: »
    trying to replace one oppressive regime with another...how exactly is this good?

    Communism, sure I'll give you that one but teh bad press Socialists get on here is pathetic.


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  • #511
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    No such thing as bad publicity as they say. He is donating the blood money to the British Legion though, isn't he?


  • #512
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    irishconvert wrote: »
    No such thing as bad publicity as they say. He is donating the blood money to the British Legion though, isn't he?
    Yeah, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?


  • #513
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yeah, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    From who's perspective? B-liar's?


  • #514
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    karma_ wrote: »
    Oh please yourself. That is a solid fact, it was the Socialists and the Communists who joined the fight against Fascism first.

    Your handy little narrative is self serving and absurd. The communist wings were funded and enabled by Stalins Soviet Union.

    Not that this takes away from all of the young men driven by idealism to go to Spain and fight. Orwell, Hemmingway and Laurie Lee spring to mind.


  • #515
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yeah, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    It's obviously a good thing. But note how no one arguing against Blair can admit that here. People - especially of extremist tendencies - love creating a black and white situation where there is none. Blair is the anti-Christ, you see, and thus can do no right.
    karma_ wrote: »
    Communism, sure I'll give you that one but teh bad press Socialists get on here is pathetic.

    "Communism is terrible."
    "Yeah, but I'm not a Communist, I'm an Anarchist!"
    "But, Anarchism is terrible too."
    "Well, I suppose I'm more of a Socialist."
    "Socialism can be as bad."
    "But, erm, I'm a democratic Socialist."

    And so on.


  • #516
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    karma_ wrote: »
    Communism, sure I'll give you that one but teh bad press Socialists get on here is pathetic.

    It may be pathetic but it is richly deserved.


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  • #517
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #518
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because it's the British legion. And thus must be a very bad thing for people of a certain mindset.


  • #519
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Denerick wrote: »
    It may be pathetic but it is richly deserved.

    I'll take my chances on the left rather than with the self serving idiots on the right any day.


  • #520
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,996 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    It's obviously a good thing. But note how no one arguing against Blair can admit that here. People - especially of extremist tendencies - love creating a black and white situation where there is none. Blair is the anti-Christ, you see, and thus can do no right.

    actually i'd agree with that. though you could as easily have pointed out that right-wing extremist are just as likely to accept no criticism of him. for me personally i believe invading iraq was wrong. on the other hand i give him credit for his intervention in Sierra Leone and his involvement in northern ireland. i believe his holidays in ireland, and the comments of his bigoted grandmother, were instrumental in him pursuing peace in northern ireland.
    although one criticism i would have of him in relation to northern ireland, is he seems to play down the role of people like Hume, Alex Reid, Trimble and Mo Mowlam.


  • #521
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Its a good thing the Royal British Legion is getting the proceeds of the book.

    Just a bit ironic that money from Blairs book will go to the rehabilitation of soldiers injured because of his mistakes and lies.


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  • #522
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #523
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Thats like blaming anyone on the right for Pinochet, Hitler etc.

    Stupid and pointless.


  • #524
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Depends, for those who are thinking of buying the book, do they want to contribute to that type of charity and contribute to a support or "crutch" for the BA?


  • #525
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #526
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Your applying the opinions of a few on all.
    As per your question:

    Milton Friedman.


  • #527
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    Wait.... the opinion of one man? Seriously?


  • #528
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #529
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Didn't say he was.


  • #530
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #531
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because of the number of British casualties who have a pre-existing support network compared to the number of Iraqi casualties, whom I'm fairly sure have little to sweet fuck all resources at their disposal....


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  • #532
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Nodin wrote: »
    Because of the number of British casualties who have a pre-existing support network compared to the number of Iraqi casualties, whom I'm fairly sure have little to sweet fuck all resources at their disposal....

    So you think it would be better if Blair kept the money?


  • #533
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You asked
    If you can find me an ardent apologist for Hitler and/or mass genocide who have been rewarded with professorships, fellowships, and prizes galore (at institutions such as Stanford and the University of London, no less), please do feel free.

    Friedman participated in Pinochet crimes in Chile. Maybe not mass genocide but close. Pointless exercise anyway and off topic.


  • #534
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #535
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #536
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'm suggest - as should be obvious - that the 4.5 million is more needed by the people who've suffered the most as a result of his policies.


  • #537
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    To be fair to Hobsbawm, he answered that in the context of a war that had claimed millions of lives either way. What he really was answering was that after that, would all of that waste of life had been worth it if it resulted in a communist utopia? And he said yes. Big difference. And yes, I'm an apologist for Hobsbawm :D


  • #538
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    He acted as an advisor and met with Pinochet while he was torturing and murdering people not to mention the dictatorship thing.
    That would make him a participant.


    He was also a teacher of economic theory in the University of Chicago. Many of his students went on to become advisors to South American tyrants using his "free market" ideology.


  • #539
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm suggest - as should be obvious - that the 4.5 million is more needed by the people who've suffered the most as a result of his policies.

    That's not what you suggested. You suggested - in fact, you directly said - that Blair giving money to a British charity was bad. The only thing I can extrapolate from this is that you think him giving money to this charity is worse than if he kept it himself.


  • #540
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #541
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    That's not what you suggested. You suggested - in fact, you directly said - that Blair giving money to a British charity was bad. .

    Its bad in that the real victims - the Iraqi people - have been ignored. Theres already a state support structure for injured BA veterans, and theres few of them relatively speaking.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Oh, come on. If Blair had donated that money to the victims of war in Iraq, you and your compatriots would have been screeching "Blood Money!!!!!!!" all the louder. .

    Not really. Its blood money no matter what he does with it. If had given most or all of to Iraq it would have been 'Blood money, but at least he did the right thing for once'.


  • #542
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #543
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Nodin wrote: »
    Its bad in that the real victims - the Iraqi people - have been ignored.

    That's like saying me donating €20 to Concern is bad because I could, hypothetically, donate €30.

    When someone says that something is bad I automatically assume that it is worse than the other alternative outcome. When you say "Blair donating the money is bad" that means to me that you consider him donating this money to charity to be worse than not donating it at all. Do you?


  • #544
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You asked for an academic who supported a right wing dictatorship.
    I gave you one.

    As for Hobsbawm never heard of him.

    I see in your quote from me left out the bit about his students applying his ideas in South American dictatorships.

    If you want honest debate then don't pretend that anyone who is Socialist supports Stalins genocide. It is silly like anyone right wing supports Pinochet. Like I said pointless and stupid.

    Must be easy following some ideology, "libertarianism" I believe, that has never worked anywhere, anytime and looking down your nose at others who deal in reality.

    Most people are pragmatic, left and right wing on different issues.


  • #545
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Here it was you who asked him to provide a name, which he promptly did.


  • #546
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #547
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    That's like saying me donating €20 to Concern is bad because I could, hypothetically, donate €30.

    Actually, the problem is that hes not given to concern at all, at all.
    Donegalfella wrote:
    So are you saying that Mr Blair should not have written a memoir at all?

    Thats problematic. As the part dealing with Iraq is far from honest, by all accounts, its worth is questionable.

    The money should go to Iraqi victims, as said earlier - twice now, in fact.


  • #548
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #549
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    So supporting a brutal right-wing dictator is fine, as long as you don't advocate it? Debate is getting pythonesque to be fair.


  • #550
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #551
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    As we know to an extent what he knew, its hard to believe its an honest document even with that in mind. Thus, its worth is questionable.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because we have documentation that shows that the British government believed that the US were exaggerating the intelligence around Saddam and that the British believed he posed no threat to his neighbours, yet according to Blair now Saddam 'had to be dealt with' etc. The "Times Memo".


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