Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis

Dublin Spur

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You have to remember Ronaldo did the same stunt as Modric, whinging till he got out, it's not exclusive to Spurs, happens Man Utd too.

yes, but they have other massive players that help cushioon the blow of losing Ronaldo, on the other hand with Spurs:

When Kanoute was sold we got Rasiak
When Berbatov was sold we got Frazer Campbell
When Carrick was sold we got Zokora
When Modric was sold we failed to sign Moutinho

it's not like that at Man Utd is it ?

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

my negitivity is pretty much reserved for the owners,

the team (on paper) looks promising but we've started poorly (as expected when you do a lot of your dealings on 31 Aug;) )

I hope AVB gets enough time to re-mould the team into his way of playing but we know that Levy has an ichy trigger finger, when Levy fcuks up with a wrong appointment it's the manager that pays the price.

I did acknowledge that there has been some improvement in the past few seasons in terms of league position so I think you have picked me up wrong.

I genuinely can't see us making the leap from a Europa league club to a regular CL club under ENIC, we're just not set up the right way

Ok, some signs of positivity there.

Which managers do you think Levy should have been more patient with?

Hoddle: Meh
Santini: Disaster
Jol: Very likeable, but limited and seemed to have lost control at the end.
Ramos: Disaster.
Redknapp: Definitely got the results and got us playing great football. Possibly a bit tactically simplistic at times. Annoying habit of talking far too much to the media. Possibly affected our season by dithering over the England job. Then understandably annoyed Levy by demanding a new contract on the basis that the players would be unsettled. On balance probably should have been kept on, but it's arguable.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

yes, but they have other massive players that help cushioon the blow of losing Ronaldo, on the other hand with Spurs:

When Kanoute was sold we got Rasiak
When Berbatov was sold we got Frazer Campbell
When Carrick was sold we got Zokora
When Modric was sold we failed to sign Moutinho

it's not like that at Man Utd is it ?

I think you're talking about the next player that we signed in those approximate positions?

Ronaldo was replaced by Valencia. An £80m player replaced by a £16m player.

SuprSi

I just thought I'd chime in here as I don't understand the comparison to buying a Merc/Rover. Spurs are (based on last season) the 4th best team in the league, and ticket prices are the 3rd highest. If ticket prices were the 4th highest, which is in keeping with the league position, would you be happy? If you're speaking about current form then fair enough - the team hasn't gelled yet and is more like a Rover than a Merc, but last season (with the exception of a poor run towards the end of the season) if you bought a Spurs ticket, you got to see an excellent Spurs team playing great football, thus justifing the price IMO.

I agree to an extent that under ENIC we may never reach the heights we would like, and things like the Moutinho deal (which should have been researched well before the closing date) could be the difference. However, we cannot say that Levy and co were holding onto cash earned for the sake of it - they were willing to significantly break the transfer record for the club to get the one player that AVB wanted over all others. Ultimately (and IMO unforgivingly) they failed but the cash was there to be spent. For the right manager, Levy will spend the cash - this is the key thing. Unfortunately Redknapp was not the man.

Personally I can't complain too much about ENIC. They've kept the club very stable, running under its own steam, achieving excellent results/league positions in the last few years and have made a very brave move allowing a relative novice to manage the team, providing him with the funds necessary to move the club forwards. It's a high risk strategy which may or may not work out, but it's one that I'm happy with. If it works, Levy will be a genious. If not, well who knows - we may spend another 5 - 6 years away from the top 4.

What's the old Spurs motto? It's better to fail aiming high than succeed aiming low

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Ok, some signs of positivity there.

Which managers do you think Levy should have been more patient with?

Hoddle: Meh
Santini: Disaster
Jol: Very likeable, but limited and seemed to have lost control at the end.
Ramos: Disaster.
Redknapp: Definitely got the results and got us playing great football. Possibly a bit tactically simplistic at times. Annoying habit of talking far too much to the media. Possibly affected our season by dithering over the England job. Then understandably annoyed Levy by demanding a new contract on the basis that the players would be unsettled. On balance probably should have been kept on, but it's arguable.

to answer your question I'd say Jol and Harry

Jol got the bullet during his 1st properly poor run at the club, in retrospect I think he should have been given more time given that he had done quite well up to then and he was working with players signed by Damian Camolli's

Harry took us from bottom to 7th, 4th, 5th and 4th and while allowing for some tactical shortcommings he did a terrific job on the whole. Under him Spurs won 102 of 205 games which pisses on every manager we've had for the past 30 years

All of the others had to go and never should have been appointed in the 1st place (bar maybe Hoddle for sentimental reasons)

The real issue is how has Levy got it so wrong so often with managerial appointments ? The buck stops with him, but he is rerely held to account and just pulls the trigger, a man with his record of ****e appointments should step down out of shame.

Then there's the systems, first it was the traditional mgr/chairman, then 3 DOF were hired and fired over 6 years, then back to the traditional system again, shambles !

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

I think you're talking about the next player that we signed in those approximate positions?

Ronaldo was replaced by Valencia. An £80m player replaced by a £16m player.

and they won the title again

losing Ronaldo didn't hurt them as much as losing (for example) Berbatov did for us.

Dublin Spur

SuprSi wrote: »

I just thought I'd chime in here as I don't understand the comparison to buying a Merc/Rover. Spurs are (based on last season) the 4th best team in the league, and ticket prices are the 3rd highest. If ticket prices were the 4th highest, which is in keeping with the league position, would you be happy? If you're speaking about current form then fair enough - the team hasn't gelled yet and is more like a Rover than a Merc, but last season (with the exception of a poor run towards the end of the season) if you bought a Spurs ticket, you got to see an excellent Spurs team playing great football, thus justifing the price IMO.

I agree to an extent that under ENIC we may never reach the heights we would like, and things like the Moutinho deal (which should have been researched well before the closing date) could be the difference. However, we cannot say that Levy and co were holding onto cash earned for the sake of it - they were willing to significantly break the transfer record for the club to get the one player that AVB wanted over all others. Ultimately (and IMO unforgivingly) they failed but the cash was there to be spent. For the right manager, Levy will spend the cash - this is the key thing. Unfortunately Redknapp was not the man.

Personally I can't complain too much about ENIC. They've kept the club very stable, running under its own steam, achieving excellent results/league positions in the last few years and have made a very brave move allowing a relative novice to manage the team, providing him with the funds necessary to move the club forwards. It's a high risk strategy which may or may not work out, but it's one that I'm happy with. If it works, Levy will be a genious. If not, well who knows - we may spend another 5 - 6 years away from the top 4.

What's the old Spurs motto? It's better to fail aiming high than succeed aiming low

I too enjoyed last season bar the poor run from Feb to Apr, but our ticket prices have been in the top 3 since the PL began, there's very little value for money compared with clubs that actually win things

I agree on the stability thing but would like to see a change, with ENIC we'll be okay, but we'll never be a CL regular

SuprSi

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I too enjoyed last season bar the poor run from Feb to Apr, but our ticket prices have been in the top 3 since the PL began, there's very little value for money compared with clubs that actually win things

I agree on the stability thing but would like to see a change, with ENIC we'll be okay, but we'll never be a CL regular

So are you looking for an investor? For Spurs, to really challenge means spending beyond the clubs means, as City/Chelsea have done.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

and they won the title again

losing Ronaldo didn't hurt them as much as losing (for example) Berbatov did for us.

We finished 11th in Berbatov's last season. We finished 8th the following season.

Ormus

SuprSi wrote: »

So are you looking for an investor? For Spurs, to really challenge means spending beyond the clubs means, as City/Chelsea have done.

Exactly. Without a sugar daddy, we will have to continually look to take baby steps of improvement. It's painstaking and it will require hard work and luck to come to fruition. The progress we've made in the last few years has been massive. We've gone from laughing stocks to title outsiders. Rank outsiders admittedly, but that's massive improvement.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

We finished 11th in Berbatov's last season. We finished 8th the following season.

there's no difference between 11th and 8th in my eyes
all just mid-table - a kinda premier league no mans' land

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Exactly. Without a sugar daddy, we will have to continually look to take baby steps of improvement. It's painstaking and it will require hard work and luck to come to fruition. The progress we've made in the last few years has been massive. We've gone from laughing stocks to title outsiders. Rank outsiders admittedly, but that's massive improvement.

don't forget that some of the "lauging stock" seasons happened on Levy's watch

I totally accept improvment has been made since those dark days but I don't buy the "massive improvment" argument

ENIC did not capitalise on our CL qualification, they sat on their hands while our direct competition invested, this was their biggest crime in my view and proved to me that they are not fully committed to making Spurs great again.

I hope they prove me wrong in time, but I've seen enough over the past 12 years to make me feel they won't

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

to answer your question I'd say Jol and Harry

Jol got the bullet during his 1st properly poor run at the club, in retrospect I think he should have been given more time given that he had done quite well up to then and he was working with players signed by Damian Camolli's

Harry took us from bottom to 7th, 4th, 5th and 4th and while allowing for some tactical shortcommings he did a terrific job on the whole. Under him Spurs won 102 of 205 games which pisses on every manager we've had for the past 30 years

All of the others had to go and never should have been appointed in the 1st place (bar maybe Hoddle for sentimental reasons)

The real issue is how has Levy got it so wrong so often with managerial appointments ? The buck stops with him, but he is rerely held to account and just pulls the trigger, a man with his record of ****e appointments should step down out of shame.

Then there's the systems, first it was the traditional mgr/chairman, then 3 DOF were hired and fired over 6 years, then back to the traditional system again, shambles !

Fair enough. It is arguable that Jol and Harry should have been given more time. Personally I think they had both run their course, but we'll never know.

Did you condemn the appointments of Santini and Ramos at the time?

It seems to me that most clubs find it very hard to get a good manager. Newcastle have had Gullit, Dalglish and Allardyce. Villa have had O'Leary, Gregory and McLeish. Chelsea have had Grant, Ranieri and Scolari. Liverpool have had Souness, Hodgson and Dalglish. Don't even start me on Man City.

Before Levy took over, we had Ardiles, Gross and Livermore/Clemence.

United and Arsenal had the good fortune to find 2 great managers. Everton have been fortunate to a lesser extent with Moyes.

Apart from that, the managerial merrygoround is in full swing as usual. Why does Levy stand out?

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

there's no difference between 11th and 8th in my eyes
all just mid-table - a kinda premier league no mans' land

I agree it's no great improvement, but you were saying we were a lot more hurt losing Berbatov than United were in losing Ronaldo.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Fair enough. It is arguable that Jol and Harry should have been given more time. Personally I think they had both run their course, but we'll never know.

Did you condemn the appointments of Santini and Ramos at the time?

It seems to me that most clubs find it very hard to get a good manager. Newcastle have had Gullit, Dalglish and Allardyce. Villa have had O'Leary, Gregory and McLeish. Chelsea have had Grant, Ranieri and Scolari. Liverpool have had Souness, Hodgson and Dalglish. Don't even start me on Man City.

Before Levy took over, we had Ardiles, Gross and Livermore/Clemence.

United and Arsenal had the good fortune to find 2 great managers. Everton have been fortunate to a lesser extent with Moyes.

Apart from that, the managerial merrygoround is in full swing as usual. Why does Levy stand out?

because he's got these major decisions wrong consistantly for 12 years

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

because he's got these major decisions wrong consistantly for 12 years

Which ones? Which managers should he not have appointed? Which appointments did you not agree with at the time?

You haven't said how he stands out. I have showed you that pretty much all clubs have made several bad appointments.

SuprSi

Dublin Spur wrote: »

because he's got these major decisions wrong consistantly for 12 years

I dunno, it's not like he's appointed Steve Staunton each time. I remember being happy with each managerial appointment (oddly enough with the exception of Harry) when it happened and from what I remember any Spurs fan I met felt the same way. He was doing what the fans wanted. Santini was a moderately successful French international manager, Jol had potential, Ramos had done very well in Spain, etc - each appointment seemed like a good appointment at the time, they just didn't work out. If anything, maybe Levy listened too much to the press and supporters when appointing these guys?

He has made mistakes. As Ormus mentioned, he hasn't had the luck that Arsenal/Utd have had with their appointments but I think he's tried to get the best man for the job that he could.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Which ones? Which managers should he not have appointed? Which appointments did you not agree with at the time?

You haven't said how he stands out. I have showed you that pretty much all clubs have made several bad appointments.

other clubs poor performance in managerial appointments is not an excuse I can accept

all the other clubs u mention have had new owners (at least once) in the time since levy has been in charge

he has got it wrong for longer than anyone else

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

other clubs poor performance in managerial appointments is not an excuse I can accept

all the other clubs u mention have had new owners (at least once) in the time since levy has been in charge

he has got it wrong for longer than anyone else

So other clubs similar poor performance doesn't change your assertion that ours stands out? Do you not see the flaw in that? How can our record stand out if others have similar?

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

So other clubs similar poor performance doesn't change your assertion that ours stands out? Do you not see the flaw in that? How can our record stand out if others have similar?

I don't see why Newcastle or Aston Villa's failings have anything to do with why Levy has got it wrong so often in the managerial appointment department.

He's been at this job now for 12 years, in this time he has hired and fired 8 managers and 3 DOFs.

Here we are again, into Sep with 1 point and in another transition period with another new manager.

It's groundhog day with ENIC

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I don't see why Newcastle or Aston Villa's failings have anything to do with why Levy has got it wrong so often in the managerial appointment department.

He's been at this job now for 12 years, in this time he has hired and fired 8 managers and 3 DOFs.

Here we are again, into Sep with 1 point and in another transition period with another new manager.

It's groundhog day with ENIC

I asked you why Levy stands out as worse than other chairmen for making bad managerial appointments. You have agreed with me that similar clubs have a similar record. Do you not see the lack of logic?

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

I asked you why Levy stands out as worse than other chairmen for making bad managerial appointments. You have agreed with me that similar clubs have a similar record. Do you not see the lack of logic?

no lack of logic, just a different perspective

what your example shows is that some other clubs have also gone through many managers. I think what you're trying to say is that because these things happen to other clubs, 8 mgrs in 12 years at Spurs is normal. My point is that it's only normal if you keep making the same mistakes.

Look at Everton for example, the season after they finished 4th I think they finished in the bottom half, if that was Spurs the mgr would have gotten the bullet, just look at this summer, Levy sacked a Spurs mgr for finishing as low at 4th for God's sake !!

No chairman in PL history has hired and fired so many managers and changed the clubs transfer system so many times, this lack of direction and consistancy usually means that we are always in transition.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

no lack of logic, just a different perspective

what your example shows is that some other clubs have also gone through many managers. I think what you're trying to say is that because these things happen to other clubs, 8 mgrs in 12 years at Spurs is normal. My point is that it's only normal if you keep making the same mistakes.

Look at Everton for example, the season after they finished 4th I think they finished in the bottom half, if that was Spurs the mgr would have gotten the bullet, just look at this summer, Levy sacked a Spurs mgr for finishing as low at 4th for God's sake !!

No chairman in PL history has hired and fired so many managers and changed the clubs transfer system so many times, this lack of direction and consistancy usually means that we are always in transition.

Sorry you're really not making any sense now. You said Levy stands out, yet you agreed that other clubs have similar records. Then you said it's a different perspective. We are usually always in transition? Never mind.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Sorry you're really not making any sense now. You said Levy stands out, yet you agreed that other clubs have similar records. Then you said it's a different perspective. We are usually always in transition? Never mind.

if you can't follow, we should end it there

I hope your vision for the future happens and ENIC lead us to long term sustained sucess

As you know I massively doubt this will happen but I hope I'm wrong

Time will tell I guess

decmanning

Levy sacks Redknapp for finishing fourth, hires Villa Boas even though its clear from his time at Chelsea that his tactics are crazy and just plays the wrong players and wrong formations, then brings in Dempsey and Dembele to replace Modric and Van de Vaart, dont get me wrong Dempsey and Dembele are good players but they will never bring the creativity to the middle of the park like Modric and Van de Vaart did, there was only one suitable player to replace Modric and that was Moutinho, transfer fee agreed but yet again Levy slips up by not sealing the deal by offering Moutinho ridicolous personal terms, spurs had the potential to break top 3 this season, however with the incompetence of Levy and AVB i reckon we are heading back to our mid table days, the day Harry Redknapp left the club is the day we went downhill, we needed a manager capable of making quality signings this summer to replace the quality we lost and unfortunately AVB did not bring in enough quality

mickman

looks like there was panic at the lane

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/agent-spurs-made-late-berbatov-bid-565544.html

Sugarlumps

mickman wrote: »

looks like there was panic at the lane

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/agent-spurs-made-late-berbatov-bid-565544.html[/QUOTE]

The boy has still got it, some silky touches when he came on in the 2nd half of the Fulham game.

Leinstersqspur

“We were in touch with Tottenham at the last moment”

Sounds like an agent was trying to get his client a better deal. Did Spurs actually make a formal approach? Guess we'll never know.

2nd Row Donkey

Sugarlumps wrote: »

mickman wrote: »

looks like there was panic at the lane

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/agent-spurs-made-late-berbatov-bid-565544.html[/QUOTE]

The boy has still got it, some silky touches when he came on in the 2nd half of the Fulham game.

how much did we pay for Dempsey?

Fulham got Berba and we got Dempsey. Fulham must be laughing their heads off.
How we could do with a skillful, intelligent player like him in our attack these days

Sugarlumps

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

Sugarlumps wrote: »

how much did we pay for Dempsey?

Fulham got Berba and we got Dempsey. Fulham must be laughing their heads off.
How we could do with a skillful, intelligent player like him in our attack these days

Oh yes indeed.