Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

5th isn't very glorious at all no.

But the fact remains that 4th place in the league is a bigger achievement in the modern game than winning the FA Cup, League Cup or Europa League.

purely a matter of opinion, not a fact, lets agree to disagree

putting qualification for for a competition that we can't win ahead of competitions that we can win is madness, but each to their own I guess.

irishmover

Dublin Spur wrote: »

purely a matter of opinion, not a fact, lets agree to disagree

putting qualification for for a competition that we can't win ahead of competitions that we can win is madness, but each to their own I guess.

I think it's pure financial benefits he's probably talking about. I'd much prefer both.

Dublin Spur

irishmover wrote: »

I think it's pure financial benefits he's probably talking about. I'd much prefer both.

Both would be great, but I don't thnink we can expect to see much of either under ENIC sadly.

So what does top 4 actually get you ? What did it get us 3 years ago ? In the end the answer is nothing because ENIC didn't build on it. The money that we made from being in it was not spent on the players we needed to sign in order keep us in the CL and keep us improving.

This is why ENIC are wrong for Spurs, THFC is an investment for ENIC there is no emotional attachement, the fans are they only ones that feel for the club as far as I can see and ENIC milk us for every penny they can.

Why is CL qualification so improtant ? It doesn't automatically mean we will sign better players and keep our best players does it. Look at Arsenal for example, they have been in it for years, they don't win stuff anymore and sell their best players (RVP, Fabregas etc..) hardly something to shout about.

Ormus

irishmover wrote: »

I think it's pure financial benefits he's probably talking about. I'd much prefer both.

I'm not talking about financial benefits, I'm talking about achievement.

The Europa League, FA Cup and League Cup aren't as much of an achievement anymore because the best teams either aren't in them or don't always play their first team in them.

It's still nice to win them but it's a bit of a hollow victory to beat teams who aren't trying as hard as you.

4th in the league doesn't have much of a ring to it and there is no nice trophy with it, but those in the know, know that it means more.

White Heart Loon

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Both would be great, but I don't thnink we can expect to see much of either under ENIC sadly.

So what does top 4 actually get you ? What did it get us 3 years ago ? In the end the answer is nothing because ENIC didn't build on it. The money that we made from being in it was not spent on the players we needed to sign in order keep us in the CL and keep us improving.

This is why ENIC are wrong for Spurs, THFC is an investment for ENIC there is no emotional attachement, the fans are they only ones that feel for the club as far as I can see and ENIC milk us for every penny they can.

Why is CL qualification so improtant ? It doesn't automatically mean we will sign better players and keep our best players does it. Look at Arsenal for example, they have been in it for years, they don't win stuff anymore and sell their best players (RVP, Fabregas etc..) hardly something to shout about.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. All clubs are businesses (except City and Chelsea). To become a bigger club we need to build a bigger stadium which will bring in much more finances. The one we have only holds 36,000 which we could fill twice over most weeks, somewhere in Levys statement last week he said we had assurance of sales of 42,000 season tickets. This will allow us to step up a level and pay higher wages. We will be in the position we are in until we get the new stadium.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/spurs/News/chairman-message-19052013.page?

Leinstersqspur

To: Dublin Spur & Ormus

If i'm not mistaken you guys had the exact same argument about ten months ago. :D

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

To: Dublin Spur & Ormus

If i'm not mistaken you guys had the exact same argument about ten months ago. :D

Well remembered!

Dublin Spur

White Heart Loon wrote: »

You're not looking at the bigger picture. All clubs are businesses (except City and Chelsea). To become a bigger club we need to build a bigger stadium which will bring in much more finances. The one we have only holds 36,000 which we could fill twice over most weeks, somewhere in Levys statement last week he said we had assurance of sales of 42,000 season tickets. This will allow us to step up a level and pay higher wages. We will be in the position we are in until we get the new stadium.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/spurs/News/chairman-message-19052013.page?

I think the idea that we could fill WHL twice over (72,000) most weeks is classic ENIC propaganda, especially at the current ticket prices.

assurance of 42,000 ST sales!, I guarantee you it would be a different story if they were asked to actually pay up

pleasant Co.

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I think the idea that we could fill WHL twice over (72,000) most weeks is classic ENIC propaganda, espically that the current ticket prices.

assurance of 42,000 ST sales!, I guarantee you it would be a different story if they were asked to actually pay up

All I can gather from your posts is "I want a man city/chelsea owner to take control of Tottenham", otherwise I'm not sure where you're going with this continued debate.

Dublin Spur

pleasant Co. wrote: »

All I can gather from your posts is "I want a man city/chelsea owner to take control of Tottenham", otherwise I'm not sure where you're going with this continued debate.

We already have a billionaire owner, but unlike Chelsea/Man City, our billionaire uses the club as a tool to make money as apposed to financially supporting the club to acheive greater things.

If ENIC pushed the boat out a little further (nowhere close to the type of spending we see at Chelsea or Man City) we could build a great team, sadly from what I have seen, ENIC don't really have any actual football ambitions.

I will eat my hat if any new staduim is built or financed by them.

irishmover

Dublin Spur wrote: »

We already have a billionaire owner, but unlike Chelsea/Man City, our billionaire uses the club as a tool to make money as apposed to financially supporting the club to acheive greater things.

If we pushed the boat out a little further (nowhere close to the type of spending we see at Chelsea or Man City) we could build a great team, sadly from what I have seen, ENIC don't really have any actual football ambitions.

I will eat my hat if any new staduim is built or financed by them.

Have you been to WHL lately? Have you not seen the Sainsbury's being built & the clearing almost complete for the first stage of the Stadium build? It's going to happen, so you may eat your hat now!

I really don't understand this argument. The club is a sustainable club designed around the upcoming FFP rules long before they were talked about. Sure football is all about winning trophies but our club is performing very well within our means. You really should get a look at the revenue of the top 10 clubs in England. Spurs isn't on top i'm sure you've guessed.

The last club to outlay a huge amount of money and succeed was Portsmouth. We all know how that ended. QPR. Blackburn in the 90's is another one. So yeh, we do what you say, and maybe we'll get some short term success but what about the long term? What about these FFP rules that will screw the club over (supposedly) if they spend massively.

How much do you suggest we spend? We don't have 120m pound to spend on transfers. Look how far that's gotten Liverpool. Spending massive amounts of money is not going to hand a trophy to us on a silver plate. Signing players like Vertonghen, Lloris, Bale, Sandro, Lennon, et. al is.

Just from a quick calculation the average transfer fee we paid for those 5 players was 7m pound

irishmover

Ormus wrote: »

I'm not talking about financial benefits, I'm talking about achievement.

Sorry about that!

Dublin Spur

irishmover wrote: »

Have you been to WHL lately? Have you not seen the Sainsbury's being built & the clearing almost complete for the first stage of the Stadium build? It's going to happen, so you may eat your hat now!

I really don't understand this argument. The club is a sustainable club designed around the upcoming FFP rules long before they were talked about. Sure football is all about winning trophies but our club is performing very well within our means. You really should get a look at the revenue of the top 10 clubs in England. Spurs isn't on top i'm sure you've guessed.

The last club to outlay a huge amount of money and succeed was Portsmouth. We all know how that ended. QPR. Blackburn in the 90's is another one. So yeh, we do what you say, and maybe we'll get some short term success but what about the long term? What about these FFP rules that will screw the club over (supposedly) if they spend massively.

How much do you suggest we spend? We don't have 120m pound to spend on transfers. Look how far that's gotten Liverpool. Spending massive amounts of money is not going to hand a trophy to us on a silver plate. Signing players like Vertonghen, Lloris, Bale, Sandro, Lennon, et. al is.

Just from a quick calculation the average transfer fee we paid for those 5 players was 7m pound

Why does the idea of ENIC investing a little more point some people in the direction of the Pompey or a Leeds situations ? We're not set up like those clubs were, our owner is a billionnaire. Wouldn't it be nice if he put a few quid towards improving the team rather than the "you can spend what you sell" mantra.

As for the stadium, yes they've bought up some land around WHL but the fact remains that planning permission was granted a year and a half ago and there's still no announcement on a start date or even a start year. This is because ENIC will not be paying for the project. If the Government and/or Haringy Council and/or a commercial partner split the cost with ENIC we might see something but I wouldn't hold my breath, at the moment the whole thing is a bit of a scam IMO.

By the way, just because I have doubts about ENIC deosn't mean I hate them, I would prefer if new owners were given a go, owners who cared as much about sucess on the pitch as sucess on the stock exchange.

There are pleanty of Spurs fans like yourself who are very happy with the current set up, I've no problem with that, I just don't think it's as good as it could be and as good as ENIC could make it.

Leinstersqspur

Dublin Spur wrote: »

We already have a billionaire owner, but unlike Chelsea/Man City, our billionaire uses the club as a tool to make money as apposed to financially supporting the club to acheive greater things.

If ENIC pushed the boat out a little further (nowhere close to the type of spending we see at Chelsea or Man City) we could build a great team, sadly from what I have seen, ENIC don't really have any actual football ambitions.

I will eat my hat if any new staduim is built or financed by them.

Man City had a new stadium built for them so that's a flawed comparison.

That said Joe Lewis is super-rich, not Abramovich super-rich, but certainly in the billions, go on Joe, give us €60m for Moutinho and Hulk, please!!!:D

irishmover

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Why does the idea of ENIC investing a little more point some people in the direction of the Pompey or a Leeds situations ? We're not set up like those clubs were, our owner is a billionnaire. Wouldn't it be nice if he put a few quid towards improving the team rather than the "you can spend what you sell" mantra.

As for the stadium, yes they've bought up some land around WHL but the fact remains that planning permission was granted a year and a half ago and there's still no announcement on a start date or even a start year. This is because ENIC will not be paying for the project. If the Government and/or Haringy Council and/or a commercial partner split the cost with ENIC we might see something but I wouldn't hold my breath, at the moment the whole this is a bit of a scam.

By the way, just because I have doubts about ENIC deosn't mean I hate them, I would prefer if new owners were given a go, owners who cared as much about sucess on the pitch as sucess on the stock exchange.

There are pleanty of Spurs fans like yourself who are very happy with the current set up, I've no problem with that, I just don't think it's as good as it could be and as good as ENIC could make it.

About to go asleep so replying quickly.. but you mustn't have seen the site for the stadium lately. Mclaren (won the construction contract Sept. 2012 for Sainsburys and Stadium having successfully completed the training ground centre, yes you remember that? The £50m training centre built by ENIC) have their onsite office established beside the boardings on High road. The entrance to the new stadiums site is visible from the road. As I mentioned before you can clearly see that they're very close to finishing the clearing to begging construction of the Stadium itself. From what I could see two months ago was that they were ready for excavation.

The only concern I can see now is the 150 people in the flats beside Whitehall Lane who are protesting as the plans are to tear down those flats to build a walkway from White Hart Lane station to the stadium.

I was quite pessimistic a year ago about the stadium but having visited WHL earlier in the season I seem myself that there was movement. I fully expect full construction to commence at some stage this year.

I think ENIC have always been trying to get the best deal in no matter what they do and the Stadium is no different. Instead of starting building a year ago and costing possibly £50m more they're holding out to get the right support behind them.

If one thing useful the riots done it was certainly to get people in government over there to take notice of the Tottenham area.

Dublin Spur

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Man City had a new stadium built for them so that's a flawed comparison.

That said Joe Lewis is super-rich, not Abramovich super-rich, but certainly in the billions, go on Joe, give us €60m for Moutinho and Hulk, please!!!:D

City's staduim was buold for the commonwealth games I think and they are tennents, nice stoke of luck. ENIC tried to do the same with the olympic and failed.

By the way, I can't see how €60mil on a few players would damage the solvency of ENIC/Joe Lewis, but it seems they just would prefer not to invest this type of money and we just have to accept it (or complain like me )

Dublin Spur

irishmover wrote: »

About to go asleep so replying quickly.. but you mustn't have seen the site for the stadium lately. Mclaren (won the construction contract Sept. 2012 for Sainsburys and Stadium having successfully completed the training ground centre, yes you remember that? The £50m training centre built by ENIC) have their onsite office established beside the boardings on High road. The entrance to the new stadiums site is visible from the road. As I mentioned before you can clearly see that they're very close to finishing the clearing to begging construction of the Stadium itself. From what I could see two months ago was that they were ready for excavation.

The only concern I can see now is the 150 people in the flats beside Whitehall Lane who are protesting as the plans are to tear down those flats to build a walkway from White Hart Lane station to the stadium.

I was quite pessimistic a year ago about the stadium but having visited WHL earlier in the season I seem myself that there was movement. I fully expect full construction to commence at some stage this year.

I think ENIC have always been trying to get the best deal in no matter what they do and the Stadium is no different. Instead of starting building a year ago and costing possibly £50m more they're holding out to get the right support behind them.

If one thing useful the riots done it was certainly to get people in government over there to take notice of the Tottenham area.

that's fair enough and I'll galdfully admit I got it wrong if ENIC actually pay for the building of the thing.

Leinstersqspur

Dublin Spur wrote: »

By the way, I can't see how €60mil on a few players would damage the solvency of ENIC/Joe Lewis, but it seems they just would prefer not to invest this type of money and we just have to accept it (or complain like me )

I'm agreeing with you bud, Joe Lewis' private art collection estimated to be worth €200m. His personal wealth is about $4.2bn dollars!!:eek::eek:

Dublin Spur

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

I'm agreeing with you bud, Joe Lewis' private art collection estimated to be worth €200m. His personal wealth is about $4.2bn dollars!!:eek::eek:

typical of Spurs to find they only prudent billionnaire in football

2nd Row Donkey

Dublin Spur wrote: »

We already have a billionaire owner, but unlike Chelsea/Man City, our billionaire uses the club as a tool to make money as apposed to financially supporting the club to acheive greater things.

If ENIC pushed the boat out a little further (nowhere close to the type of spending we see at Chelsea or Man City) we could build a great team, sadly from what I have seen, ENIC don't really have any actual football ambitions

Well put. No one is asking ENIC to jeopardize the long term future of the club for short term gains.

It will be interesting to see what is spent this summer, as there wont be much income in the way of player sales to fund the spending like there has been in most of the last 5-6 years.

I can't see our net spend been more than 12-15M myself.

Ormus

I want any success we may have to be earned, not bought.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

I want any success we may have to be earned, not bought.

what's the definition of bought ? it's quite subjective isn't it ?

we probabaly would have signed Mountinho last summer if we had shown a little more ambition,

just say for instance, we had got Moutinho and his signing lent it's self to a trophy or a top 4 finish,
Would this sucess would have been bought or earned ?

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

what's the definition of bought ? it's quite subjective isn't it ?

we probabaly would have signed Mountinho last summer if we had shown a little more ambition,

just say for instance, we had got Moutinho and his signing lent it's self to a trophy or a top 4 finish,
Would this sucess would have been bought or earned ?

It's not an exact science, but there comes a point where you realise your club is spending money it doesn't have and that its success is more down to money than football.

The day I get that feeling about Spurs, I'll lose a bit of love for the club.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

It's not an exact science, but there comes a point where you realise your club is spending money it doesn't have and that its success is more down to money than football.

The day I get that feeling about Spurs, I'll lose a bit of love for the club.

fair enough, I suppose we all have our own barometer on these things

as it stands we are not set up to make a push for bigger things even though our owners can easily afford it, THFC has so much potential

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

fair enough, I suppose we all have our own barometer on these things

as it stands we are not set up to make a push for bigger things even though our owners can easily afford it, THFC has so much potential

We'll get there! The aim is to get there by football, not by money.

I honestly think we are growing as a club, slowly but steadily.

White Heart Loon

Ormus wrote: »

We'll get there! The aim is to get there by football, not by money.

I honestly think we are growing as a club, slowly but steadily.

At least we're not as shít as LFC, although their supporters still think they're a top 4 team. We can hold our heads high that our club is in great shape and moving steadily forward. I honestly believe we have an EPL title in us in the next few years, things are slowly falling into place.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

We'll get there! The aim is to get there by football, not by money.

I honestly think we are growing as a club, slowly but steadily.

I don't share your optimisim about us getting there just by football but nevertheless I would be very happy if we did.

Our activity this summer (hopfully not on 31 Aug ) after what was a pretty solid season with a new manager will tell us a lot about the club's ambition.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I don't share your optimisim about us getting there just by football but nevertheless I would be very happy if we did.

Our activity this summer (hopfully not on 31 Aug ) after what was a pretty solid season with a new manager will tell us a lot about the club's ambition.

Well yes and no. I don't think the approach is going to change. If you're expecting a spending spree you're gonna be disappointed.

Hopefully we get a striker in and a midfielder to replace Scotty P.

Andros Townsend will come back into the squad. Danny Rose might be sold.

That's about all that is likely to happen.

2nd Row Donkey

http://youtu.be/j2qan1jS2nQ

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Well yes and no. I don't think the approach is going to change. If you're expecting a spending spree you're gonna be disappointed.

Hopefully we get a striker in and a midfielder to replace Scotty P.

Andros Townsend will come back into the squad. Danny Rose might be sold.

That's about all that is likely to happen.

hopefully Levy will pull a rabbit out of a hat and give us all something to get excited about, it's the hope that kills you