Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis

jobeenfitz

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

A brilliant read in today's guardian, a very insightful interview with our former manager and soon to be opponent, Dnipro boss Juande Ramos..
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/13/juande-ramos-tottenham-hotspur-dnipro?CMP=twt_gu

Posting it here to instigate the next leg of Ormus v Dublin Spur (couldn't resist :D) due to the following remarks:
Ramos accepts the way Tottenham is run but not the apportioning of blame when it comes to not being among the country's very best sides. "Spurs works as a business," he says.

"That's legitimate and I'm sure the model's built with the right intentions. They think the economic model enables the sporting model to function but that's not always true. Levy makes a £17m investment [Bent] but has two better players in the way. They have to remove obstacles so the investment plays. In economic terms, fine. In sporting terms it turned out to be a disaster."

He explains: "Spurs spend a lot of money but only sign players who are 20 or 22 because they're thinking of future sales. [Gareth] Bale, for example, or [Luka] Modric: I advised Spurs to sign him. He's a great player but you still need patience; it doesn't happen immediately. The idea is: sign players, see if they take off, sell and reinvest. Fine but are you trying to win money or titles? The criteria at Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea is that the sporting side is the priority. If City sign [Jesús] Navas or [Álvaro] Negredo, they don't look at the player's age; they look at his performances.

"Spurs aren't going to win the league. Economically, it works well but in sporting terms maybe it needs retuning. You can't demand something that doesn't fit the reality."

Ramos comparing Spurs to Man U, Man City and Chelsea negates his point. We cannot be compared to Man U with their ground capacity and following or City and Chelsea with bottemless pockets. Why did he not compare us to the many clubs beneath us with bigger ground capacities?


I am sure we could hold onto more of our top players if we had a sheikh or a Russian gazillioneer willing to throw vasts amount at the club.

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Huh, did you read the article? "The year before they'd signed Darren Bent for £17m. They sell Robbie Keane and [Dimitar] Berbatov because they want Bent to play, so they left us with Darren Bent and Frazier Campbell. Without strikers."

Sorry I read what you pasted is all.

Berbatov and Keane both insisted on leaving. Berbs even went on strike.

Bent was our record signing. There was nothing economical about him I think it's fair to say.

yiddo59

Ormus wrote: »

Sorry I read what you pasted is all.

Berbatov and Keane both insisted on leaving. Berbs even went on strike.

Bent was our record signing. There was nothing economical about him I think it's fair to say.

If my memory serves me right Ramos wanted to get rid of Keane (thought his best days were behind him. He was right) and when the bid from Liverpool came in it was a no brainer for all concerned.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

Sorry I read what you pasted is all.

Berbatov and Keane both insisted on leaving. Berbs even went on strike.

Bent was our record signing. There was nothing economical about him I think it's fair to say.

We replaced Keane & Berbatov, our best ever premier league and cup winning strike partnership with Bent and Campbell. Ramos does not dispute that they wanted to leave but states that Levy/Comoli failed to signed adequate replacements.

Honestly thought it was a good & rare interview, speaks pretty openly about his time at the club. Be nice if the Chairman was more open with the fans.

irishmover

Ramos wasn't happy with keane going on a £8m 6 month loan deal to Liverpool?

I sure was.

Ormus

yiddo59 wrote: »

If my memory serves me right Ramos wanted to get rid of Keane (thought his best days were behind him. He was right) and when the bid from Liverpool came in it was a no brainer for all concerned.

You really think it was Ramos' decision to let him go?

yiddo59

Ormus wrote: »

You really think it was Ramos' decision to let him go?

I think he was happy to let Keane go on the basis that Berbatov was staying and that he could bring in someone else. Of course with the 2 of them going that changed everything.

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

We replaced Keane & Berbatov, our best ever premier league and cup winning strike partnership with Bent and Campbell. Ramos does not dispute that they wanted to leave but states that Levy/Comoli failed to signed adequate replacements.

Honestly thought it was a good & rare interview, speaks pretty openly about his time at the club. Be nice if the Chairman was more open with the fans.

Bent was useless but he was our record signing. He's using our record signing to show us as stingy. He was a waste of money. The opposite of economical.

Do we really have to listen to Juande Ramos?

Juande Ramos. I felt that needed repeating.

yiddo59

Ormus wrote: »

Do we really have to listen to Juande Ramos?
.

Course we do! our most successful manager since.... since George Graham

irishmover

I liked the bit about McDonalds.

Dublin Spur

Ramos's insight into the running of our club is interesting and not very surprising.
That said, he obviously has an axe to grind and is putting the boot in.

At the end of the day he is just another on the long list of managerial appointments Mr Levy got horribly wrong !
I wonder how long Tim will last ? The average is around 18 months.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

Do we really have to listen to Juande Ramos?

I'd rather listen to him than you;);)

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Ramos's insight into the running of our club is interesting and not very surprising.
That said, he obviously has an axe to grind and is putting the boot in.

At the end of the day he is just another on the long list of managerial appointments Mr Levy got horribly wrong !
I wonder how long Tim will last ? The average is around 18 months.

Yep, 6 sackings in 13 years

That's one every 18 months

Most managers in the Premiership last at least 6 seasons I'd say

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

I'd rather listen to him than you;);)

Haha I was actually offended by that, but then I thought ok maybe he's achieved more in football than me.

Maybe.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Yep, 6 sackings in 13 years

That's one every 18 months

Most managers in the Premiership last at least 6 seasons I'd say

back to square 1 every 18 months - we deserve better

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

back to square 1 every 18 months - we deserve better

If you take Wenger out, the average tenure of a Premiership manager is 379 days.

2nd Row Donkey

Have to agree, the day of long term managers and long term plans are gone.
Even if we did have a successful manager .. trophies etc, would we be able to hold on to him when the big boys come a' knockin.

According to rumours in the press, DL gave PSG permission to speak to AVB last summer because we would have got 12-15M in compensation.

(Even the managers are brought in young and full of potential with a view to making a few million on them down the road )

Ormus

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

Have to agree, the day of long term managers and long term plans are gone.
Even if we did have a successful manager .. trophies etc, would we be able to hold on to him when the big boys come a' knockin.

According to rumours in the press, DL gave PSG permission to speak to AVB last summer because we would have got 12-15M in compensation.

(Even the managers are brought in young and full of potential with a view to making a few million on them down the road )

Yeah it is hard to come around to the fact that long terms managers are the exception rather than the rule, but the statistics are impossible to ignore.

I guess every club hopes to find a manager who will be there for the long haul, but in reality the fans and the owners and the press don't have the patience anymore.

Maybe it's because there's so much money in football now that fans get so resentful of any manager who doesn't bring immediate success.

Plus there's always the feeling that the players will try harder if a new guy is brought in, at least for a few weeks.

irishmover

I wonder what that figure was in the summer when David Moyes was Evertons manager and Alex ferguson was still Man uniteds manager.

Two long serving managers gone in one summer.

3 long serving managers out of 20 is still an exception however.

There's an interesting quote in that article I linked a few pages ago as a reply to the first fightingcock article. It mentions something very good about how many managers we've had since ENIC came in. In bed about to go asleep and on my phone so a but too much hassle to find it at the moment...

irishmover

Nevermind. Painfully got the quote on my phone.

Here’s the problem with managers – Levy’s biggest drawback: we’ve have lost sight just how difficult a job that is for a club like ours. Top 4 football is a lofty expectation. Many other clubs have similar lofty expectations and most never achieve them.

Just look at similarly-sized clubs around us (albeit this is a relatively subjective measurement): how many managers have they had in the same period? Not counting interims:

Manchester City – 8
Chelsea – 11
Aston Villa – 7
Liverpool – 6
Newcastle – 11
Tottenham – 9 inc Sherwood).

The common theme there is ‘not meeting the clubs’ current expectations’; in some cases lofty and in others bordering on desperate.

What would be ideal for Spurs? A manager who for accomplish the boards goal with the resources he’s given: finish in the top 4 consistently until we reach a period where we can push on for titles. How many managers in England have been able to live up to minimum expectations year in and year out? Maybe two: Ferguson and Wenger. I guess you can count Mourinho with his bags of money.

Spurs, for all intents and purposes, typically punch above our weight. Yet our goal from our fans and board is Champions League football and therein lies the problem, expectations. I’m not criticising anyone for having a minimum goal of Champions League football – I mean, that’s my minimum as well. Still, that’s very difficult. I’m tempted to call it obsession, and this is what causes the reactions which we’ve seen over the years.

Everton have hired two managers in the same space of time Levy has been Chairman. They’ve had good seasons, and a load of mediocre seasons. That’s a good example of what I’m talking about. They’ve sold big players, they’ve had a more strict budget, and still Moyes was able to stay in that job for a while because they didn’t expect much more of him considering all of the outside hindrances.

I’m sure Spurs could hire a manager who can help us finish 6th-ish every season and keep him on for years, making the occasional top 4 run. That could be us if we wanted it and we’d be fairly stable. But getting the next Ferguson or Wenger is difficult; there have been several clubs who have failed at this task the past 15 years and will continue to forever more.

My biggest issue with Levy is his record with managers, but it’s disingenuous for fans to suggest it’s easy to find a manager who can meet our goals with as thin of a margin we’ve had.

Dublin Spur

it would be nice if the chairman backed his managers 1) in the transfer market and 2) with sufficient time to implement a long term plan.

Unfortunately he does neither and we enter a new cycle every 18 months

All this while the trophy cabinet remains bare and our best players keep being sold

ENIC are cleaning up though, that's all that really matters to them.
They are good at making money for themselves.

jobeenfitz

Dublin Spur wrote: »

back to square 1 every 18 months - we deserve better

Tis a hard one to solve. To get past 18 months you have to be successful. If your successful some big fish wants to take ya away.

Maybe in a few years time we will be praising Levy for appointing the "great Tim Sherwood"

Ormus

I guess it's a testament to Levy that our last two managers have lasted over twice the Premiership average tenure.

Stability.

What you reckon DublinSpur?

KingdomYid

Ormus wrote: »

I guess it's a testament to Levy that our last two managers have lasted over twice the Premiership average tenure.

Stability.

What you reckon DublinSpur?

Daniel Levy is that you??? I am starting to think he has a boards account

DubPerryman

Juande Ramos has had his say on this subject....

"Spurs sold Gareth Bale in the summer and with the €100million (£86m) they have signed five or six players," Ramos told The Daily Mail.

"They will see if any of those players take off and then maybe sell them on and reinvest: that's the business plan.

"It works well but you have to ask the question: what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to win money or titles? The sporting side is the priority at Manchester United, Manchester City and Chelsea.

"(Manchester) City sign Jesus Navas, Alvaro Negredo. They don't look at the age of the player, they look at the performances. Spurs look at the age, thinking of a future sale.

"I advised them to sign Luka Modric. He spent a couple of years developing and started performing well and they sold him.

"Why aren't Spurs going to win the league? Because they are always a small step below those three or four teams. Economically it works well but in sporting terms it needs a slight tuning. What are you chasing? Titles or economic success?"

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2014/02/14/4619411/-?

Dublin Spur

how other clubs go about their business is no concern of mine. I want my club to get it right. A start would be to appoint a manager and back him (let him run the football side what ever way he wanted). Levy doesn't seem capable of this - hence the cray long list of "failed" managers and DOFs.

Sacking our manager every 18 months is embarressing, Levy keeps getting it wrong yet never faces the bullet himself - I guess Lewis doen't care how poor Levy's managerial decisons are so long as the money keeps rolling in.

I suppose it's only the fans who really care about all this swapping and changing - of course there will always be a few exceptions like yourself

Ormus

DubPerryman wrote: »

Juande Ramos has had his say on this subject....




http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2014/02/14/4619411/-?

So if Spurs only wanna make money, why not replace Bale with one player instead of 5 or 6, and keep the rest of the money? What we did in the summer made no financial sense at all.

Why is he talking about Navas and Negredo to illustrate his point? Negredo is younger than Soldado. Navas has been an ok signing but very pricey.

If he thinks Spurs should buy players based on their current performance, why did he recommend Modric when he admits himself that it took a couple of years before he made grade.

He seems to forget the point he's trying to make. Something tells me the Magic Juande did this interview down his local in Dnipro over a few vodkas.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

how other clubs go about their business is no concern of mine. I want my club to get it right. A start would be to appoint a manager and back him (let him run the football side what ever way he wanted). Levy doesn't seem capable of this - hence the cray long list of "failed" managers and DOFs.

Sacking our manager every 18 months is embarressing, Levy keeps getting it wrong yet never faces the bullet himself - I guess Lewis doen't care how poor Levy's managerial decisons are so long as the money keeps rolling in.

I suppose it's only the fans who really care about all this swapping and changing - of course there will always be a few exceptions like yourself

I've asked you this before but you care to name the 13 managers Levy has sacked please?

I'll award a prize of a brand new Spurs jersey (with Levy 10 on the back) to the first person who can name all 13.

Dublin Spur

sacked, mutual decison, parted company etc etc etc.....
they all mean the same thing, Levy got rid of them one way or another

Graham
Hoddle
Pleat
Santini
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB
Sherwood (not sacked yet)

So 9 have served in 13 years.
That's 13 divided by 9 = 1.44 yrs per manager on average.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

sacked, mutual decison, parted company etc etc etc.....
they all mean the same thing, Levy got rid of them one way or another

Graham
Hoddle
Pleat
Santini
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB
Sherwood (not sacked yet)

So 9 have served in 13 years.
That's 13 divided by 9 = 1.44 yrs per manager on average.

But Sherwood is still there.

And Pleat was never manager (well not this century anyway)

So it's 7 ok? 7 managers have left Spurs in the last 13 years. Graham was there when Levy took over, but we'll leave him in if you want.

We have talked about this before but never mind.

Ok so now divide 13 in 7 parts = 1.85

If not for Santini it would be 2.16 - over twice the Premiership average!