Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis

Ormus

KingdomYid wrote: »

Of course it happens, but does not mean we are not going to be seriously pissed off at it.

I honestly don't get that. Be sad, be disappointed. But pissed off doesn't make sense to me. We simply couldn't keep him and if we did he wouldn't have been the same, bad influence on the squad and half the transfer fee the following summer.

Dublin Spur

more empty seats at the Lane yesterday - speaks volumes

we're going absolutely nowhere - how did it get to this ?

Leinstersqspur

Dublin Spur wrote: »

more empty seats at the Lane yesterday - speaks volumes

we're going absolutely nowhere - how did it get to this?

Because Levy made a bad decision when he appointed interim Tim. I say that not in hindsight, I said that from the day he was appointed, also known as the day our season ended. Another inspired decision / appointment from our beloved chairman.

Don't get me wrong he's a very astute and shrewd businessman, but how many clubs have given out about him and our transfer policy? Remember the Lloris saga? No wonder he wanted Baldini brought in, clubs don't want to deal with him.

As I said earlier, I doubt he'd still be running the club if he didn't own 30%.

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Because Levy made a bad decision when he appointed interim Tim. I say that not in hindsight, I said that from the day he was appointed, also known as the day our season ended. Another inspired decision / appointment from our beloved chairman.

Don't get me wrong he's a very astute and shrewd businessman, but how many clubs have given out about him and our transfer policy? Remember the Lloris saga? No wonder he wanted Baldini brought in, clubs don't want to deal with him.

As I said earlier, I doubt he'd still be running the club if he didn't own 30%.

I don't remember any saga. I remember the Lyon chairman bleating about Levy being tough to deal with. It's rare in life that two parties haggle with each other without one party saying ah c'mon. C'est la vie as they say in France. It turned out that Lloris joined Spurs.

It's complete bull**** to say clubs don't want to deal with him. Clubs want the best deal they can get. It's business.

same ol sh1te

Some folks won't be happy until we have Vincent Tan

pleasant Co.

same ol sh1te wrote: »

Some folks won't be happy until we have Vincent Tan

You mean you wouldn't want to be known as the arsenal red spurs or some such shiiiite :pac:

2nd Row Donkey

Some fans seem to think its a great achievement to rub shoulders with the big boys once in a while.

2nd Row Donkey

jobeenfitz wrote: »

This makes them look like perennial losers, when if anything, for close to a decade now they have been one of the most effectively run clubs in the world. The truth is Spurs board should be congratulated, but they don’t actually want that.

They’ve got a nice little business model going and it’s very well served by everyone talking about them as failed big club, rather than the truth, which is a very successful mid sized club. Levy and ENIC bought the club for about £30 million and have since gone about turning it into a £300-£400 million club, by keeping their fans believing they are close.

They’ve built a brilliant training facility, have plans for a great stadium which Levy seems to be using every trick in the book to make others pay for and they have consistent European football and flirt with the big boys. But even though between them they are very wealthy, there is no chance Levy and Lewis would do what is needed to give Spurs a real chance of success.

The near perfect correlation between overall spending and success wont have been missed by him. He knows what it really takes to be successful and therefore can’t have any serious expectations. But as long as he keeps people thinking he has and keeps doing the great job he is (and consistent top 6 finished is a great job) and all the while people considering it a failure, then his investment will grow.

Everyone always believes that Spurs are on the brink. They’ve made a brand from it. You look at the growth markets of football around the world and Spurs will have a presence yet no other “also ran” will.

The key to this is that they have convinced everyone they have the potential to go to the next level, when in reality they are doing superbly well to be where they are.

I haven't read anything in years that has made me so angry yet so depressed at the same time.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

I don't remember any saga. I remember the Lyon chairman bleating about Levy being tough to deal with. It's rare in life that two parties haggle with each other without one party saying ah c'mon. C'est la vie as they say in France. It turned out that Lloris joined Spurs.

It's complete bull**** to say clubs don't want to deal with him. Clubs want the best deal they can get. It's business.

Pretty sure the Lyon president said that Levy kept reneging on agreements made in writing and that it was his most difficult negotiation in 25 years, being drawn out for nearly two months.

In the history of the premier league has any top club dragged out and / or failed to complete as many transfers as we have? Perhaps that's where you and I differ, to me it's not just business, it's a football club which needs squad stability. So this year instead of dragging all our transfers out until the last minute Levy hires Baldini who accumulates players at a savage rate albeit not one with any premier league experience. Good decision? Then we sack AVB and hire a manager without any premier league experience. Good decision?

You say people are wrong to criticise Levy for hiring Baldini because we're doing so with the benefit of hindsight, that's utter bull****. People who make bad decisions in business are responsible and should be held to account.

There's a common denominator in our constant shortcomings and if Levy didn't own 30% of the company I honestly think he'd be gone. I think Spurs great Clive Allen (who people may say is just a disgruntled former employee) put it well when he said "he shares the Spurs chairman’s pain, as he believes the 52-year-old is genuinely doing his best for the club. Nevertheless, he says that Levy is behind the lack of stability which is keeping Tottenham from meeting their ambition of breaking into the top four."

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Pretty sure the Lyon president said that Levy kept reneging on agreements made in writing and that it was his most difficult negotiation in 25 years, being drawn out for nearly two months.

In the history of the premier league has any top club dragged out and / or failed to complete as many transfers as we have? Perhaps that's where you and I differ, to me it's not just business, it's a football club which needs squad stability. So this year instead of dragging all our transfers out until the last minute Levy hires Baldini who accumulates players at a savage rate albeit not one with any premier league experience. Good decision? Then we sack AVB and hire a manager without any premier league experience. Good decision?

You say people are wrong to criticise Levy for hiring Baldini because we're doing so with the benefit of hindsight, that's utter bull****. People who make bad decisions in business are responsible and should be held to account.

There's a common denominator in our constant shortcomings and if Levy didn't own 30% of the company I honestly think he'd be gone. I think Spurs great Clive Allen (who people may say is just a disgruntled former employee) put it well when he said "he shares the Spurs chairman’s pain, as he believes the 52-year-old is genuinely doing his best for the club. Nevertheless, he says that Levy is behind the lack of stability which is keeping Tottenham from meeting their ambition of breaking into the top four."

Yep the Lyon chairman had a right old moan and the result was we got Lloris for 10m. I wouldn't have had it any other way. It was good business. I don't think it was anywhere near 2 months but I'm not sure.

Lots of clubs drag out transfers. I never thought we were any better or worse than the rest.

I'm pretty sure we were all buzzing in the summer with all the new signings. You weren't?

What has Premiership experience got to do with it? Plenty useless players have Premiership experience and plenty good players have none. I don't remember you condemning our signings during the summer but if you did fair play, you were right.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

Yep the Lyon chairman had a right old moan and the result was we got Lloris for 10m. I wouldn't have had it any other way. It was good business. I don't think it was anywhere near 2 months but I'm not sure.

Lots of clubs drag out transfers. I never thought we were any better or worse than the rest.

I'm pretty sure we were all buzzing in the summer with all the new signings. You weren't?

What has Premiership experience got to do with it? Plenty useless players have Premiership experience and plenty good players have none. I don't remember you condemning our signings during the summer but if you did fair play, you were right.

Pretty sure it was about two months

"We had people speaking all night with Daniel Levy,” said Aulas, a former president of the G14 group of elite clubs. “He talks a lot and goes back on what we’ve agreed in writing. Agreements have not at all been respected. The first negotiation was at the start of the window, about a month and a half ago, through an intermediary who was a French lawyer who lives in Lyon. And then nothing for about a month and a half. The negotiation then picked up again about a week ago. We had email exchanges which have been contradicted, so that’s made it very complicated. It’s difficult. The Tottenham board’s theory is to explain that the economic market is very hard and so we have to get used to renegotiating."

Don't get me wrong, I love a good bargain but I couldn't say I wouldn't love it any other way. And this I believe is why Baldini was brought in.

Historically I would definitely say we drag out transfers (buying or selling) far more often than other clubs, hence why Sky were permanently camped outside Spurs Lodge on deadline day, hence the expression 'Levy time' e.g. outgoing: Berbatov, Modric and Bale, incoming: Lloris, Mouthinho and Vertonghen et al.

Of course we were all buzzing when we signed seven players in one window, no Spurs fan couldn't have been, we were signing seven players, unprecedented in our history. But there was always caution in the air, some of these players i.e. Chadli & Chriches were not household names and had no premier league experience. Some commentators said we could win the premier league, others said we could have unbalanced a good squad, that we didn't need seven players. In hindsight would you have hired Baldini? If not, who made the decision to hire him?

I know you think the sun shines off of Levy's head and I'm pretty sure everyone admires the mans business acumen, he's a shrewd as they come. But I can't help but agree with Allen, he is the common denominator in our lack of stability. One of the reasons we are still labelled one of the great under achievers? Instead of consistently sitting in the land of mediocrity why not push on and try and taste glory? Levy had an opportunity to push the boat out when we qualified for the CL and failed to capitalise..

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Pretty sure it was about two months

"We had people speaking all night with Daniel Levy,” said Aulas, a former president of the G14 group of elite clubs. “He talks a lot and goes back on what we’ve agreed in writing. Agreements have not at all been respected. The first negotiation was at the start of the window, about a month and a half ago, through an intermediary who was a French lawyer who lives in Lyon. And then nothing for about a month and a half. The negotiation then picked up again about a week ago. We had email exchanges which have been contradicted, so that’s made it very complicated. It’s difficult. The Tottenham board’s theory is to explain that the economic market is very hard and so we have to get used to renegotiating."

Don't get me wrong, I love a good bargain but I couldn't say I wouldn't love it any other way. And this I believe is why Baldini was brought in.

Historically I would definitely say we drag out transfers (buying or selling) far more often than other clubs, hence why Sky were permanently camped outside Spurs Lodge on deadline day, hence the expression 'Levy time' e.g. outgoing: Berbatov, Modric and Bale, incoming: Lloris, Mouthinho and Vertonghen et al.

Of course we were all buzzing when we signed seven players in one window, no Spurs fan couldn't have been, we were signing seven players, unprecedented in our history. But there was always caution in the air, some of these players i.e. Chadli & Chriches were not household names and had no premier league experience. Some commentators said we could win the premier league, others said we could have unbalanced a good squad, that we didn't need seven players. In hindsight would you have hired Baldini? If not, who made the decision to hire him?

I know you think the sun shines off of Levy's head and I'm pretty sure everyone admires the mans business acumen, he's a shrewd as they come. But I can't help but agree with Allen, he is the common denominator in our lack of stability. One of the reasons we are still labelled one of the great under achievers? Instead of consistently sitting in the land of mediocrity why not push on and try and taste glory? Levy had an opportunity to push the boat out when we qualified for the CL and failed to capitalise..

So what that says is that the negotiations went on for one night, apart from a few emails during that week and a tentative inquiry through an intermediary at the start of the transfer window. Am I missing something?

Sky camped outside the Lane because we had a reputation for last minute deals, not because of dragged out deals. But most of that was Sky hype anyway. We did have one or two windows which were a bit mental on deadline day but since then we've been pretty normal, much to Sky's chagrin.

Personally one of the main things I want from a chairman is to make it as difficult and expensive as possible for other clubs to take our best players, and Levy did a great job of that with Berbatov, Bale etc

The Moutinho transfer was certainly disappointing, but we'll never know whose fault that was. Sounds like they kept upping the personal terms until Levy said enough is enough. But that's speculation.

The Lloris transfer was reasonably straightforward.

Vertonghen, I don't remember as being a saga, but I could be wrong?

In hindsight of course I wouldn't have hired Baldini, but being wise in hindsight is pointless. All one can ever do is make decisions on sound logic with the information you have at the time. Nobody can tell the future.

Spurs aren't the great underachievers. We're overachievers if anything. We've been turned from a mid table club occasionally flirting with relegation, into one regularly challenging for 4th.

Stability: 1. the state or quality of being stable.
2. firmness in position.
3. continuance without change; permanence

We've finished either 4th or 5th for the last 4 seasons in a row, and 6 of the last 8.

jobeenfitz

When things go wrong we usually blame those at the top and that's fair enough, they make all the decisions and that's the way the world works.

Last summer Levy agreed to sell Bale to Madrid, imo because it was almost impossible to prevent it, not because he wanted too. The money was re-invested in the team. It wasn't a magnificent success but with a bit more time the 100 million euro aprox. that was spent may not be as bad as it seems.

I am not saying Levy/Lewis are great and we should bow in awe but I think they have the clubs best interest at heart and have been steering us in the right direction in the last decade and will continue to do so. Of course they can improve. I am sure levy is learning lessons along the way.

Its been an upward trend since Levy and Lewis arrived with a bit of stagnation over the last couple of years and a couple of steps backwards this season. We are still way better off than we were under Mr. Sugar. Since Levy/Lewis came to us Chelsea and Man City have got mountains of money which has made it more difficult to progress and compete for top four places.

Every Spurs fan is disappointed with our season, I'm sure. I am also sure that Levy/Lewis are working on how to get back on track for next season.

There are difficulties with becoming and maintaining a top four position. We are not automatically ENTITLED to a top four position even though we all want it. We are all entitled to our opinions on how the club should be run but in the real world things may not be as easy as we may think. I am not in any hurry to get rid of Levy and Lewis.

Be careful what you wish for Spurs fans, you just may get it!

Dublin Spur

I think the main message is don't expect much and you won't be disapointed

We're set up under this crowd to play Europa league football, get a new mgr every 18 months, take regaular hammering off the big boys and sell our best players (whilst paying some of the highest ticket prices in europe)

As long as you're okay with this, you have nothing to be concerned with.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I think the main message is don't expect much and you won't be disapointed

We're set up under this crowd to play Europa league football, get a new mgr every 18 months, take regaular hammering off the big boys and sell our best players (whilst paying some of the highest ticket proces in europe)

As long as you're okay with this, you have nothing to be concerned with.

So you're criticising ENIC for being too stable?

Leinstersqspur is criticising ENIC for instability.

I don't think I've ever seen a better example of "damned if you do and damned if you don't"

jobeenfitz

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I think the main message is don't expect much and you won't be disapointed

We're set up under this crowd to play Europa league football, get a new mgr every 18 months, take regaular hammering off the big boys and sell our best players (whilst paying some of the highest ticket prices in europe)

As long as you're okay with this, you have nothing to be concerned with.

My expectations are always way to high, especially at the start of every season. I expect Spurs to appoint a top manager this summer I am just not sure that we can afford the very best or if the very best would take the job.

The same with players, can we attract/afford the very best.

It is easy for us fans to expect the best but usually the best can only be afforded by the biggest clubs or those with the biggest pile of cash.

So for Spurs to become and maintain a top four position I think we need to have a higher ground capacity or get a big pile of cash like City. A new ground is not cheap and could set us back further teamwise in the medium term. Do we want a sugarddy?

I think that having high expectations is a good thing, we have to push ourselves. Demanding something that is very difficult imo is just unrealistic and impatient.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

So you're criticising ENIC for being too stable?

Leinstersqspur is criticising ENIC for instability.

I don't think I've ever seen a better example of "damned if you do and damned if you don't"

The instability I am talking about is the new manager every 18 months, you should know better than anyone Ormus that DublinSpur is not happy in this regard either.

I don't think I've ever seen a better example of "talking through your arse"

I don't buy all this "we're so lucky to have Levy & Co.", "careful what you wish for nonsense". ENIC have had the benefit of a lot of TV money down through the years. Should we be happy flirting with 4th perpetually? As a great man once said "It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low".

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

The instability I am talking about is the new manager every 18 months, you should know better than anyone Ormus that DublinSpur is not happy in this regard either.

I don't think I've ever seen a better example of "talking through your arse"

I don't buy all this "we're so lucky to have Levy & Co.", "careful what you wish for nonsense". ENIC have had the benefit of a lot of TV money down through the years. Should we be happy flirting with 4th perpetually? As a great man once said "It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low".

I've been over this with DublinSpur at least 3 times.

The average tenure of a Premiership manager (part from Wenger) is 379 days

Spurs have sacked 6 managers in the last 13 years, and only 2 in the last 6 years.

That's way more stable than is normal in the Premiership. Possibly a contributing factor in the stability we've experienced in terms of league finishes.

You ask if we should be happy flirting with 4th perpetually. No we shouldn't but don't you think it's a bit early to ask that? It's only in the last few seasons that 4th has become a reality. We've only achieved it twice! And you think we should be turning our noses up at it.

Our reckless summer spending spree has been disastrous but if it did one thing surely it showed that Levy wants to take us higher. Some lunatics will still accuse him of pocketing the money.

Dublin Spur

Ramos, Arry and AVB have been sacked since Oct 2008 (5.5 yrs) so it's wrong to suggest Levy sacked 2 mgrs in 6 years.

By the way and I fully expect Sherwood will make it 4 in less than 6 years this summer (but we'll see)

DubPerryman

Not sure which thread to put this photo in, but I think it applies to the Summer Transfer thread too...

We're the biggest transfer revenue generator of the top five leagues in the last five years.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Ramos, Arry and AVB have been sacked since Oct 2008 (5.5 yrs) so it's wrong to suggest Levy sacked 2 mgrs in 6 years.

By the way and I fully expect Sherwood will make it 4 in less than 6 years this summer (but we'll see)

Ok well since Ramos got sacked in 2008 (6 years ago), only 2 managers have left Spurs, one sacked (Redknapp), one we don't know (AVB).

Fair enough it is only 5.5 years.

I agree with you TS will probably go, but he's only an interim manager really. He has the title of full time manager but we all know he's a stop gap.

Dublin Spur

only checking

I think TS was given an 18 month contract but I could be mistaken

h2005

Ormus wrote: »

I've been over this with DublinSpur at least 3 times.

The average tenure of a Premiership manager (part from Wenger) is 379 days

Spurs have sacked 6 managers in the last 13 years, and only 2 in the last 6 years.

That's way more stable than is normal in the Premiership. Possibly a contributing factor in the stability we've experienced in terms of league finishes.

You ask if we should be happy flirting with 4th perpetually. No we shouldn't but don't you think it's a bit early to ask that? It's only in the last few seasons that 4th has become a reality. We've only achieved it twice! And you think we should be turning our noses up at it.

Our reckless summer spending spree has been disastrous but if it did one thing surely it showed that Levy wants to take us higher. Some lunatics will still accuse him of pocketing the money.

What's the average tenure for the premiership clubs we're trying to compete with?

Dublin Spur

h2005 wrote: »

What's the average tenure for the premiership clubs we're trying to compete with?

in the past 10 years say:

Man Utd - 2 (Ferguson, Moyes)
Arsenal - 1 (Wenger)
Man City - 6 (Keegan, Pearce, Eriksonn, Hughes, Mancini, Pelligrini)
Chelsea - 8 (Jose, Grant, Scholari, Ancellotti, AVB, Di Matteo, Benitez, Jose)
Liverpool - 4 (Rafa, Hodgson, Dalglish, Rodgers)
Spurs - 7 (Pleat, Santini, Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB, Sherwood)

Ormus

h2005 wrote: »

What's the average tenure for the premiership clubs we're trying to compete with?

In the past 10 years:

Man City - 6
Chelsea - 7
Liverpool - 4
Spurs - 5
Everton - 2

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

only checking

I think TS was given an 18 month contract but I could be mistaken

He was he was

But we all know he's gone come summer and always was

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in the past 10 years say:

Man Utd - 2 (Ferguson, Moyes)
Arsenal - 1 (Wenger)
Man City - 6 (Keegan, Pearce, Eriksonn, Hughes, Mancini, Pelligrini)
Chelsea - 8 (Jose, Grant, Scholari, Ancellotti, AVB, Di Matteo, Benitez, Jose)
Liverpool - 4 (Rafa, Hodgson, Dalglish, Rodgers)
Spurs - 7 (Pleat, Santini, Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB, Sherwood)

Since Jol taking over in 2004 (10 years ago), only 4 managers have come and gone at Spurs.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

Since Jol taking over in 2004 (10 years ago), only 4 managers have come and gone at Spurs.

would be nice for the owner to hire someone and properly back them
ie. give them sufficient time, control and transfer budget

I think Harry is the last one who was backed, in his first window Jan 09 (Keane, Defoe, Palacious, Chimbonda) when we were in the bottom 3. All probabaly painc buys but we were in the sh1t. Since then the actual net spend has been next to nothing.

Leinstersqspur

Is that you on the left Ormus?:D

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Is that you on the left Ormus?:D