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Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis
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This is the problem. Chelsea & Man City should never have been allowed to do what they've done in recent years. This also applies to Monaco, PSG & a few others. They've distorted normality and fairness to such an extent that other club's supporters berate their owners for not doing likewise.
Yep, people have forgotten that it used to be about football. Now it's just about buying trophies.0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »I'm not saying he should, just that it would be nice if he did.
I'd like our owner to have an emotional connection with the club.
Lewis obviously has none, which is a shame.
An emotional connection like the sheikhs at City?
I'd like to think Lewis supports Spurs but doesn't believe that trophies should be bought. I'm speculating now, maybe he isn't bothered. But we don't know.0 -
We qualified for Champions League a few years ago. I honestly consider that a big achievement and I loved seeing us up there and playing against the best teams and beating some of them. I would have enjoyed it a lot less if we had bought that achievement more than we earned it.
Honestly, I wouldn't enjoy a Spurs title win if it was bought.
thats ENIC's ideal fan profile0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »thats ENIC's ideal fan profile
That's a football fan's profile.
It's the ideal fan profile of every English club except City and Chelsea.0 -
That's a football fan's profile.
It's the ideal fan profile of every English club except City and Chelsea.
Fans dream of glory, if/when it arrives it's wonderful. But the only glory available in the PL is driven by who has the biggest budget, the game has been destroyed by money.
If you want to enjoy football for more romantic reasons I think you're looking in the wrong place because the PL is a cesspit of money driven parasites where everything is 'bought'.
THFC is just meandering through the years now, never in danger of relegation, never chellenging at the top, with a new manager, a new plan and a new bunch of lower paid merceneries every 18 months or so. It's all so pointless and boring and it's all ENICs doing.
Some are fine with this like yourself, others don't really care, some are frustrated but still go to games and moan, then there are others (like me) have just had enough of the whole business of what Spurs and the PL has become.0 -
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Dublin Spur wrote: »Fans dream of glory, if/when it arrives it's wonderful. But the only glory available in the PL is driven by who has the biggest budget, the game has been destroyed by money.
If you want to enjoy football for more romantic reasons I think you're looking in the wrong place because the PL is a cesspit of money driven parasites where everything is 'bought'.
THFC is just meandering through the years now, never in danger of relegation, never chellenging at the top, with a new manager, a new plan and a new bunch of lower paid merceneries every 18 months or so. It's all so pointless and boring and it's all ENICs doing.
Some are fine with this like yourself, others don't really care, some are frustrated but still go to games and moan, then there are others (like me) have just had enough of the whole business of what Spurs and the PL has become.
You see it as meandering, I see that we used to be a lower half team for many miserable years, but under ENIC we got out of debt, became a top half team, and in recent seasons have become a top 6 team, even qualifying for the Champions League.
And we haven't bought it. We've earned it.
Buying titles would be boring a fake and hollow for me. If it floats your boat, that's your opinion and I won't change it. But let me enjoy supporting Spurs as a proper football club. Cos I do enjoy it.
Of course some glory would be nice, but only if it's real football glory. It might never happen but it's not impossible by any means, as several clubs have shown in recent years.0 -
You see it as meandering, I see that we used to be a lower half team for many miserable years, but under ENIC we got out of debt, became a top half team, and in recent seasons have become a top 6 team, even qualifying for the Champions League.
And we haven't bought it. We've earned it.
Buying titles would be boring a fake and hollow for me. If it floats your boat, that's your opinion and I won't change it. But let me enjoy supporting Spurs as a proper football club. Cos I do enjoy it.
Of course some glory would be nice, but only if it's real football glory. It might never happen but it's not impossible by any means, as several clubs have shown in recent years.
it's all very subjective, 'real football glory' means different things to different people.
I'm glad you're enjoying the ride, wake me up when it's over.0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »it's all very subjective, 'real football glory' means different things to different people.
I'm glad you're enjoying the ride, wake me up when it's over.
I don't think it's subjective. It means glory earned from football, not bought.
Thanks, I'm glad you're glad.
So if it's so boring to support a team unless they're buying trophies, what possessed you to follow Spurs in the first place?0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »
THFC is just meandering through the years now, never in danger of relegation, never chellenging at the top, with a new manager, a new plan and a new bunch of lower paid merceneries every 18 months or so. It's all so pointless and boring and it's all ENICs doing.
Some are fine with this like yourself, others don't really care, some are frustrated but still go to games and moan, then there are others (like me) have just had enough of the whole business of what Spurs and the PL has become.
Serious questions: What age are you, how long have you supported Spurs and why did you start supporting them?
The above description is a far more accurate depiction of where Spurs were before ENIC took over. Before 2006, the best PL finish was 7th and average position was usually 10-11th. They may not be faultless but it's surely obvious to everyone that they have brought huge improvements to the club.
Getting into the top 4 has been made far harder due to the authorities failing to prevent Sugar Daddies spending obscene amounts of money and distorting the whole league. Spurs would have finished top 4 each year from 2010-2013 if Man City had not had the Sheikh's money. Think about how much money this has cost Spurs due to the authorities failing to implement proper rules.0 -
I don't think it's subjective. It means glory earned from football, not bought.
Thanks, I'm glad you're glad.
So if it's so boring to support a team unless they're buying trophies, what possessed you to follow Spurs in the first place?
sorry, it's totally subjective
you believe something to be the case based on your personal view of the world, someone else has a different take on the same subject based on their particular view of the world. Neither are wrong.
It was a great club, now it's just a business, they're all the same. ENIC are not involved for the glory, if they were you'd see this reflected in the transfer buget and wage bill and we would have had a new stadium years ago.
ENIC are in it for the revenue, Lewis paid out about 120mil for THFC and would probabaly get around 500mil if he were to sell now. He's done a lot better out of the club than the supporters have (1 trophy in 15 years and 1 CL qualification). Still who cares? At least we're losing less games than we used to.
I picked Spurs as my team when I was a little kid and enjoyed the ride up to until I realised that we've been sold a lie by the owners with their- 5 year plans rubbish - "see you in the champions league Sol"
- Directors of Football bollox
- Continuous change of mgr, plan and structure
- We're soon gonna have 4 mgrs in 2 years
- Selling our best players
- Whilst charging some of the higest Ticket Prices in Europe
- 1 trophy in 15 years is our worst run since the war
They're not evil, they're just a business and they're good at what they do.
Their model is designed to maximise revenue above all else.
Making THFC a sucessful FOOTBALL CLUB should be the main goal of the owners, history tells us this cannot be an objective ENIC has followed.0 -
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Dublin Spur wrote: »sorry, it's totally subjective
you believe something to be the case based on your personal view of the world, someone else has a different take on the same subject based on their particular view of the world. Neither are wrong.
It was a great club, now it's just a business, they're all the same. ENIC are not involved for the glory, if they were you'd see this reflected in the transfer buget and wage bill and we would have had a new stadium years ago.
ENIC are in it for the revenue, Lewis paid out about 120mil for THFC and would probabaly get around 500mil if he were to sell now. He's done a lot better out of the club than the supporters have (1 trophy in 15 years and 1 CL qualification). Still who cares? At least we're losing less games than we used to.
I picked Spurs as my team when I was a little kid and enjoyed the ride up to until I realised that we've been sold a lie by the owners with their- 5 year plans rubbish - "see you in the champions league Sol"
- Directors of Football bollox
- Continuous change of mgr, plan and structure
- We're soon gonna have 4 mgrs in 2 years
- Selling our best players
- Whilst charging some of the higest Ticket Prices in Europe
- 1 trophy in 15 years is our worst run since the war
They're not evil, they're just a business and they're good at what they do.
Their model is designed to maximise revenue above all else.
Making THFC a sucessful FOOTBALL CLUB should be the main goal of the owners, history tells us this cannot be an objective ENIC has followed.
Sad, but entirely accurate.0 -
Serious questions: What age are you, how long have you supported Spurs and why did you start supporting them?
The above description is a far more accurate depiction of where Spurs were before ENIC took over. Before 2006, the best PL finish was 7th and average position was usually 10-11th. They may not be faultless but it's surely obvious to everyone that they have brought huge improvements to the club.
Getting into the top 4 has been made far harder due to the authorities failing to prevent Sugar Daddies spending obscene amounts of money and distorting the whole league. Spurs would have finished top 4 each year from 2010-2013 if Man City had not had the Sheikh's money. Think about how much money this has cost Spurs due to the authorities failing to implement proper rules.
I've been following the club since the mid-80s, been to over 100 games home and away.
If you use the Sugar years as a baromitor for sucess I think you're setting the bar very low, it is worth noting however that under Sugar we did win 2 trophies (91 & 99). Is being less sh1t than the last guy really a quality measure of sucess ?
I just don't see us going anywhere with ENIC and I don't think their objectives (revenue) are alligned to those of the fan base (glory).0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »sorry, it's totally subjective
you believe something to be the case based on your personal view of the world, someone else has a different take on the same subject based on their particular view of the world. Neither are wrong.
It was a great club, now it's just a business, they're all the same. ENIC are not involved for the glory, if they were you'd see this reflected in the transfer buget and wage bill and we would have had a new stadium years ago.
ENIC are in it for the revenue, Lewis paid out about 120mil for THFC and would probabaly get around 500mil if he were to sell now. He's done a lot better out of the club than the supporters have (1 trophy in 15 years and 1 CL qualification). Still who cares? At least we're losing less games than we used to.
I picked Spurs as my team when I was a little kid and enjoyed the ride up to until I realised that we've been sold a lie by the owners with their- 5 year plans rubbish - "see you in the champions league Sol"
- Directors of Football bollox
- Continuous change of mgr, plan and structure
- We're soon gonna have 4 mgrs in 2 years
- Selling our best players
- Whilst charging some of the higest Ticket Prices in Europe
- 1 trophy in 15 years is our worst run since the war
Their model is designed to maximise revenue above all else.
Making THFC a sucessful FOOTBALL CLUB should be the main goal of the owners, history tells us this cannot be an objective ENIC has followed.
I think it's quite easy to objectively know what's meant by real football glory as opposed to buying trophies. Not hard to work out.
It's hilarious that you say it was a great club and is now just a business. Spurs were poor in the 80s and even worse in the 90s. So basically you 'enjoyed the ride' while were in debt and fighting relegation, but when the nasty owners took over and took us up the table and into the Champions League, you realised that you'd been sold a lie. Do you realise that you're clinically insane?
You say business as if it's a bad thing. The alternative is to have Spurs run as a debt ridden hole, a la Irving Scholar, or as a financially doped fake club, a la City or Chelsea.0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »sorry, it's totally subjective
you believe something to be the case based on your personal view of the world, someone else has a different take on the same subject based on their particular view of the world. Neither are wrong.
It was a great club, now it's just a business, they're all the same. ENIC are not involved for the glory, if they were you'd see this reflected in the transfer buget and wage bill and we would have had a new stadium years ago.
ENIC are in it for the revenue, Lewis paid out about 120mil for THFC and would probabaly get around 500mil if he were to sell now. He's done a lot better out of the club than the supporters have (1 trophy in 15 years and 1 CL qualification). Still who cares? At least we're losing less games than we used to.
I picked Spurs as my team when I was a little kid and enjoyed the ride up to until I realised that we've been sold a lie by the owners with their- 5 year plans rubbish - "see you in the champions league Sol"
- Directors of Football bollox
- Continuous change of mgr, plan and structure
- We're soon gonna have 4 mgrs in 2 years
- Selling our best players
- Whilst charging some of the higest Ticket Prices in Europe
- 1 trophy in 15 years is our worst run since the war
They're not evil, they're just a business and they're good at what they do.
Their model is designed to maximise revenue above all else.
Making THFC a sucessful FOOTBALL CLUB should be the main goal of the owners, history tells us this cannot be an objective ENIC has followed.
The above is so wrong-headed that it's hard to know where to start. I hope you're not representative of too great a proportion of fans. I'd like to believe that most supporters are able to think coherently.
You believe that the transfer and wages budget should be greater and that a new stadium should have been built "years ago". At the same time, you're complaining about high ticket prices!! The obvious question is where do you think the money to do all this should be coming from? From reading your post though, that is not a question that should be asked as it relates to "business", a dirty word. No, it's all about "glory" and the funds to do all of this will just materialise out of thin air.
The facts are that Spurs are only breaking even as things stand, even with the high ticket prices and the existing transfer & wages policy. It's maddening to listen to braindead fans witter on about paying players £200k per week and talk about ambition/glory, etc.
As I said in my earlier post, Chelsea & City have distorted everything and they should never have been allowed to do it. Spurs are run in the right way and they would be comfortably in the CL most years if all other clubs were also run properly. The only criticism you can make of the owners is that they are not spending vast amounts of their own money in order to achieve this "glory". This is the perfect demonstration of the damage Chelsea & City have done. Other owners are criticised for not following their antics.
I've followed Spurs since 1981. They were a good side up until 1987 and would have qualified for the CL most years then if the current system had existed. From 1988 up to 2005 they were really pretty bad. They may have won two cups but they were struggling to be a top half team. ENIC are not perfect and I've always criticised the sackings of Jol & AVB but overall they've done a damn good job. The club is healthy but it's hard to win things when you're competing against teams who can lose £200-300m in a year without any consequences whatever.0 -
you have me all wrong Ormus, yes I did enjoy the ride years ago, the club was more honest, the game was more honest and the fans and owners shared the same goals. We used to pick up the odd cup and break the british transfer record every now and again which was nice. Now its just year after year of the same, just existing somewhere between 8th and 5th, always beating the same teams and always losing to the same teams. This will not change under ENIC, it's their plan, minimise spend / maximise revenue.
ENIC are not nasty by the way, they're business people trying to make as much money as possible for themselves. I'd just like their mioney making racket not to involve my club.
I just want owners that put footballing sucess at the top of their agenda.
It's that simple really0 -
The above is so wrong-headed that it's hard to know where to start. I hope you're not representative of too great a proportion of fans. I'd like to believe that most supporters are able to think coherently.
You believe that the transfer and wages budget should be greater and that a new stadium should have been built "years ago". At the same time, you're complaining about high ticket prices!! The obvious question is where do you think the money to do all this should be coming from? From reading your post though, that is not a question that should be asked as it relates to "business", a dirty word. No, it's all about "glory" and the funds to do all of this will just materialise out of thin air.
The facts are that Spurs are only breaking even as things stand, even with the high ticket prices and the existing transfer & wages policy. It's maddening to listen to braindead fans witter on about paying players £200k per week and talk about ambition/glory, etc.
As I said in my earlier post, Chelsea & City have distorted everything and they should never have been allowed to do it. Spurs are run in the right way and they would be comfortably in the CL most years if all other clubs were also run properly. The only criticism you can make of the owners is that they are not spending vast amounts of their own money in order to achieve this "glory". This is the perfect demonstration of the damage Chelsea & City have done. Other owners are criticised for not following their antics.
I've followed Spurs since 1981. They were a good side up until 1987 and would have qualified for the CL most years then if the current system had existed. From 1988 up to 2005 they were really pretty bad. They may have won two cups but they were struggling to be a top half team. ENIC are not perfect and I've always criticised the sackings of Jol & AVB but overall they've done a damn good job. The club is healthy but it's hard to win things when you're competing against teams who can lose £200-300m in a year without any consequences whatever.
Martin I can't take you seriousily if you are going to be unpleasent
I'm quite coherent thank you, try to play the ball here, not the man
Happy to discuss further if you lay off the personal stuff0 -
what I would love to know is what you guys (ormus and Dublin spur) work at in order to be able to spend all day posting on this forum :-)0
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Dublin Spur wrote: »Martin I can't take you seriousily if you are going to be unpleasent
I'm quite coherent thank you, try to play the ball here, not the man
Happy to discuss further if you lay off the personal stuff
That's bizarre and really, really funny!
Not alone are you spouting nonsense but you're hyper sensitive with it. Quite simply, your opinions are not valid when your reasoning is so fundamentally flawed.
My criticism of your earlier posts was entirely constructive unlike any of your own contributions.0 -
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playing the man again Martin
you need to work on your manners0 -
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Dublin Spur wrote: »you have me all wrong Ormus, yes I did enjoy the ride years ago, the club was more honest, the game was more honest and the fans and owners shared the same goals. We used to pick up the odd cup and break the british transfer record every now and again which was nice. Now its just year after year of the same, just existing somewhere between 8th and 5th, always beating the same teams and always losing to the same teams. This will not change under ENIC, it's their plan, minimise spend / maximise revenue.
ENIC are not nasty by the way, they're business people trying to make as much money as possible for themselves. I'd just like their mioney making racket not to involve my club.
I just want owners that put footballing sucess at the top of their agenda.
It's that simple really
Ok. That's incredible to me. It's so clear to me that the club is a lot more honest now and a lot better run. Not sure how you figure out that the previous owners shared the same goals, unless the goals were to get into debt, flirt with relegation, and generally be a laughing stock.
The odd cup. There was the FA Cup in 91. I don't even count Coca Cola Cups because the biggest teams often play their reserves, but even then we only won once in the 90s.
I actually don't remember when we broke the British transfer record, but maybe we did.0 -
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jobeenfitz wrote: »Answer the question Ormus and also tell us what your religion is and your favourite position?
Jewish to all 3 :cool:0 -
Dublin Spur wrote: »playing the man again Martin
you need to work on your manners
I addressed all of your points in detail and explained where your thinking was completely flawed. In response, you failed to address any of my points and feigned offence in order to get away with doing so. I believe the advice is to "attack the post, not the poster" which I believe I have always done. You should try doing the same.
I can't take you remotely seriously because you just keep repeating the same things over and over and ignore those points to which you have no answer. Please don't attempt to lecture me on manners again. Ignoring someone else's valid dissection of your earlier points and then carrying on as before is the height of bad manners, in my opinion.
The reason it was easier to win cups 20 years ago and maybe even break transfer records is because there weren't Sugar Daddies out there throwing money around like confetti.0 -
So, Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis eh? Some crowd they are. Lets discuss that...0
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So, Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis eh? Some crowd they are. Lets discuss that...
Crowd of bastards, improving the team. Top class training facilities and in the process of building a new stadium.
Btw I would not complain if Lewis did throw in a few pound of his own money to improve the team more.
Where would we be if they didn't take over from Sugar is a frightening thought imo.0 -
jobeenfitz wrote: »Crowd of bastards, improving the team. Top class training facilities and in the process of building a new stadium.
Btw I would not complain if Lewis did throw in a few pound of his own money to improve the team more.
Where would we be if they didn't take over from Sugar is a frightening thought imo.
Top class training facilities doesnt seem to make much difference to our lads in fairness0 -
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I addressed all of your points in detail and explained where your thinking was completely flawed. In response, you failed to address any of my points and feigned offence to in order to get away with doing so. I believe the advice is to "attack the post, not the poster" which I believe I have always done. You should try doing the same.
I can't take you remotely seriously because you just keep repeating the same things over and over and ignore those points to which you have no answer. Please don't attempt to lecture me on manners again. Ignoring someone else's valid dissection of your earlier points and then carrying on as before is the height of bad manners, in my opinion.
The reason it was easier to win cups 20 years ago and maybe even break transfer records is because there weren't Sugar Daddies out there throwing money around like confetti.
There may not have been sugar daddies like the likes of Chelsea and Man City have now, but there were always richer and pooer clubs about just like there is now. By the way, we already have a so called sugar daddy owner, did you see is wealth figure ? Something like +3 billion pounds. It would be nice if he invested some of it our way, but he doesn't seem very interested in making us a sucessful football club, a profitable unsucessful football club is all he's interested in it would seem. This make for quite a predicatable outcome each season and quite predicatable signings. Its all so unexciting and bland, you can hear a pin drop at WHL these days. They've sucked the passion out of the supporters.
We used to be able to attract big names like Lineker, Waddle and Gazza because we were a club with ambition, we wanted them and we thought we could get them, we don't even try nowadays. 10 years before that we signed 2 world cup winners from Argentina, we signed Greaves in the 60s when everyone else wanted him, we always had a name for a bit of flare and glamour and we have a great proud history, what will the history books say about ENIC when they're gone ?
The came in and delivered higher average points total that the previous owners
They gave us a new manager every 12/18 months
1 trophy in the cabinet
1 CL qualification - quarter finals
7 Europa League qualifications - 1 semi-final
Not very exciting is it ?
I think they could do a lot more with the resourses available to them. I don't think their main focus is on the sucess of the football team. You may disagree and that's fine but I doesn't make my view any less valid.
I think their main goal is to make money for ENIC. I don't hate them for this, it what businesses are all about. What I don't like is the illusion that their main objective is footballing sucess. It just isn't, if it were THFC would look a lot different than it does now after 13 years of ENIC's tenure.
I think they have avoided being more ambitious in the transfer market because they would rather not take the chance, bear in mind there would be no financial risk involved with being more ambitious in the transfer market, they have the financial strength to cover any potential losses.
For the record, I don't hate ENIC, I just don't think they've delivered any sustained sucess (they came close in 2010 and blew it). I also happen to think that their main foucs is on wealth accumulation and not the footballing sucess of THFC. For these reasons I would like to see new owners who are more focussed on generating a a long term sustained sucessful THFC and not feathering their own nest.
Finally, if someone doesn't agree with your view or if you have a an alternative view about a topic there's no need to get arsey and childish about it. Its only football and it's not a crime to be unhappy with ENIC, its actually not very important at the end of the day either day, we're all just on the outside looking in.0
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