Daniel Levy/Joe Lewis

irishmover

Ormus wrote: »

Moutinho is only one deal out of hundreds Levy has overseen. Of course there are other deals that haven't gotten over the line, same as every club and every chairman.

It's in every chairman's best interest to make the club the best it can be. There's simply no way those two goals can diverge.

Not easy to drive a hard bargain with a club and a third party. Moutinho is a pretty poor example.

Ormus

irishmover wrote: »

Not easy to drive a hard bargain with a club and a third party. Moutinho is a pretty poor example.

True. Plus the fact that it was the other side who reportedly moved the goalposts after a deal was agreed by upping the wage demands.

Dublin Spur

AVB wanted him, he wanted to come, Spurs could afford him, but Levy failed to sign him, these are the facts of the matter.

So what if the goal posts moved - Levy should have been flexible enough to deal with it, god knows he's moved a few goal posts on player sales in his time - it's how the business works - especially for top end talent.

The bottom line is that big clubs sign their targets - if we acted like a big club Mountinio would be a Spurs player - we'll never be a force in the game without ambition in the transfer market - we've sold more then we've bought in recent years in an envoirnment of record TV and commerical revenue - this tells you all you need to know about our ambition.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

AVB wanted him, he wanted to come, Spurs could afford him, but Levy failed to sign him, these are the facts of the matter.

So what if the goal posts moved - Levy should have been flexible enough to deal with it, god knows he's moved a few goal posts on player sales in his time - it's how the business works - especially for top end talent.

The bottom line is that big clubs sign their targets - if we acted like a big club Mountinio would be a Spurs player - we'll never be a force in the game without ambition in the transfer market - we've sold more then we've bought in recent years in an envoirnment of record TV and commerical revenue - this tells you all you need to know about our ambition.

Seems to me Moutinho didn't want to come. That's why he reneged on the deal.

Big clubs don't always sign their targets. Liverpool failed to sign Reus and Cavani this summer. United failed to sign Hummels and failed to sign anyone but Fellaini last summer.

A chairman's job is to get a deal done while making sure we don't get screwed. If he said yes to every demand, Spurs would've been liquidated about a decade ago, you do realise that right?

Moutinho hasn't set the world alight at Monaco as it happens.

Dublin Spur

the buying club always gets screwed at the point of transfer if the player is in demand
Levy needs to accept this when he buys - but he won't so he aims at lower quality talent. It's no wonder we've won 1 league cups in 13 years.

Levy never would have signed the likes of Gazza, Lineker, Sheringham, Klinsmann etc...
The fees/wages would have been deemed too high

Sometimes I think he forgets he's chairman of Tottenham Hotspur - we act like Leyton Orient sometimes - it's very difficult to get excited about the future with ENIC, never higher than 5th, never lower than 8th, just existing with decent players and no trophies

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

the buying club always gets screwed at the point of transfer if the player is in demand
Levy needs to accept this when he buys - but he won't so he aims at lower quality talent. It's no wonder we've won 1 league cups in 13 years.

Levy never would have signed the likes of Gazza, Lineker, Sheringham, Klinsmann etc...
The fees/wages would have been deemed too high

Sometimes I think he forgets he's chairman of Tottenham Hotspur - we act like Leyton Orient sometimes - it's very difficult to get excited about the future with ENIC, never higher than 5th, never lower than 8th, just existing with decent players and no trophies

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

The buying club does not always get screwed. Dunno where you get that from. The whole idea of every purchase is to get value for money. Not many chairmen take kindly to a deal being reneged on at the last minute. It's usually seen as a sign that the player is holding the club to ransom, and isn't that desperate to play for the club. I think it's fair to say that, if you were chairman of Spurs for the past 5 years, Spurs would no longer exist.

Gazza and Sheringham weren't on particularly massive wages at Spurs actually. For Lineker and Klinsmann, see Van der Vaart and Adebayor. I'm talking in terms of wage demands, not quality of player obviously.

Never higher than 5th? Are you actually trolling yourself now? We've finished 4th twice in recent years.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

The buying club does not always get screwed. Dunno where you get that from. The whole idea of every purchase is to get value for money. Not many chairmen take kindly to a deal being reneged on at the last minute. It's usually seen as a sign that the player is holding the club to ransom, and isn't that desperate to play for the club. I think it's fair to say that, if you were chairman of Spurs for the past 5 years, Spurs would no longer exist.

Gazza and Sheringham weren't on particularly massive wages at Spurs actually. For Lineker and Klinsmann, see Van der Vaart and Adebayor. I'm talking in terms of wage demands, not quality of player obviously.

Never higher than 5th? Are you actually trolling yourself now? We've finished 4th twice in recent years.

yep 4th twice and not a hope now - we've gone massively backwards - somewhere between 8th and 5th is what our ambition will deliver. do you envisage a different outcome ?

We broke the British transfer record with Gazza, he was one of the highest earners in British football at the time
We signed Lineker at his peak and he duly delivered the goals - he was more expensive and younger than VDV
By the way the only reason we got Adebaayor is because Man City subsidised his wages - Same with Robbie Keane and Leeds
Our owners will not pay what it takes to sign top quality talent, the kind of players we used to sign that got the supporters genuinely excited.
They have a process and won't step outside of it - it has turned Spurs into an average club, premier league filler - such a shame

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

yep 4th twice and not a hope now - we've gone massively backwards - somewhere between 8th and 5th is what our ambition will deliver. do you envisage a different outcome ?

We broke the British transfer record with Gazza, he was one of the highest earners in British football at the time
We signed Lineker at his peak and he duly delivered the goals - he was more expensive and younger than VDV
By the way the only reason we got Adebaayor is because Man City subsidised his wages - Same with Robbie Keane and Leeds
Our owners will not pay what it takes to sign top quality talent, the kind of players we used to sign that got the supporters genuinely excited.
They have a process and won't step outside of it - it has turned Spurs into an average club, premier league filler - such a shame

We hadn't finished close to 4th for a long long time before Levy took over. We were more often than not lower even than 8th.

Gazza was a big signing but his wages, even adjusted for inflation, wouldn't compare to VdV's. One came Newcastle and one came from Real Madrid.

Lineker was a big signing and came on Barcelone wages, which was massive.

City did subsidise Adebayor's wages, but not anymore. We own him outright now.

Our owners will not pay wages which will financially destabilise the club.

The owners have turned us from a laughing stock into a fairly average Premiership club. Either worst of the elite clubs or best of the non-elite clubs, whichever way you choose to look at it.

Our supporters were genuinely excited at the start of last season. Soldado, Lamela, Paulinho and Eriksen, however they turned out, were as high profile players as a club like Spurs could realistically hope to sign.

We've been over all this before.

Dublin Spur

wages that financially destabilise the club - no such thing - two or three top signings would not distabilise the club - absolutely no way - we're very wealthy and so are ENIC

ENIC are not willing to do waht it takes to attract top talent - they simply don't have the ambition

We finally break into the CL in 2010 and they spend next to nothing - that says it all

Pacing Mule

Dublin Spur wrote: »

wages that financially destabilise the club - no such thing - two or three top signings would not distabilise the club - absolutely no way - we're very wealthy and so are ENIC

ENIC are not willing to do waht it takes to attract top talent - they simply don't have the ambition

We finally break into the CL in 2010 and they spend next to nothing - that says it all

Wages most certainly can destabilise a club. The top earner at a club is a benchmark for the other players. If someone new comes in on higher wages everyone wants a pay rise.

The top top talent out there won't come to Spurs. To think they would is naieve. That's harsh but true. We aren't a top top club at the moment.

They didn't spend next to nothing. A look at the links ormus posted earlier in the week will show you were the money was spent.

Dublin Spur

ENIC are not focused on delivering success for the football club first and foremost

If they were they would have built on our CL qualification in 2010

Instead they stood idley by whilst our apponents strengthened and have now left us miles behind

As I see it, their plan is to sell up at a massive profit before the stadium is built. There's no way they're footing the bill for that.

We'll see how it plays out....

Pacing Mule

Dublin Spur wrote: »

ENIC are not focused on delivering success for the football club first and foremost

If they were they would have built on our CL qualification in 2010

Instead they stood idley by whilst our apponents strengthened and have now left us miles behind

As I see it, their plan is to sell up at a massive profit before the stadium is built. There's no way they're footing the bill for that.

We'll see how it plays out....

They have spent 35 million on the new stadium development so far. They spent 60 million on the new training centre. There is more to running a club, investing in the future etc than the players.

Dublin Spur

Yep, they have spent that money, no doubt.

But in my view that investment is part of a strategy to add value for when they decide to sell. I expect them to do this before the new stadium is built.

Time will tell if this is true - if ENIC fund the new stadium I will stand corrected.

Ormus

The new stadium will increase the value of the club.

Dublin Spur

Ormus wrote: »

The new stadium will increase the value of the club.

Of course, but who's gonna foot the bill ?

Can't see ENIC doing it - they'll cash in / sell up before a brick is laid.

Ormus

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Of course, but who's gonna foot the bill ?

Can't see ENIC doing it - they'll cash in / sell up before a brick is laid.

It increases the value of the club by the amount it costs. Wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.

Dublin Spur

We'll see....

spursman11

see on twitter feed letter sent to share holders re takeover from Cain Hoy dated 12th September

Dublin Spur

good stuff from Jim Duggan......


In some ways it would be attractive for a change, to use their own parlance when sacking yet another manager 'they have taken Spurs as far as they can' and perhaps this is a chance to break into the elite under a different funding philosophy. Perhaps that is wishful thinking. From the little we know about Cain Hoy (and ENIC come to that), there seems very little between them. The same sort of people with the same sort of instincts and likely the same sort of outcome for the football club. Hopefully they'll have someone who is not afraid of a microphone to run the show and perhaps someone who will be accountable for the failure of their own dogmas such as high profile directors of football.

If they do buy ENIC out for that sort of money, surely ENICs greatest legacy after the Rivaldo letter will be that preference share deal in 2004-7 where they took a 29% holding in the club to a 70%+ holding on the very cheap and then took it private. If only they displayed that sort of guile in footballing matters. Or indeed in new stadium delivery.

No doubt the new mob will portray a rosier future - and inevitably they will try to leak through those wally ITKs on social media that they are all secret Spurs supporters rather than just cold hearted investors - but aside from changing the names on the letterhead, it just looks like more of the same. The new stadium will provide an extra £300-400k per week for wages (less financing costs and other owner deductions - it is after all why they invest) - which is all new money from new fans pockets. If the stadium ever gets built … and built without putting Spurs in financial peril (as the last two stands did in the 80s). It will help, but it probably won't be enough to turn 6th into 3rd let alone 1st.

All that said, given the chance of a change now, I'd probably take it. Its only even gonna be about the same with ENIC whereas with the new mob, they are likely to be the same or worse, but they could be better.

SuprSi

He makes a good point. These Americans aren't ridiculously wealthy Arab's looking to spend some of their fortune that would otherwise be wasting away. They are likely to have seen how well Spurs does financially, as a business, and this is the key driver behind it. I wouldn't be expecting them to come along and throw transfer fees and higher wages at better players as that would disrupt the business model, so it's unlikely much will change and as mentioned in the post above, it could get worse.

Yet still, Levy and ENIC will have made their money without achieving a huge amount on the pitch. We live in hope that these guys will do what us supporters want and try to take the next step without putting the club at unnecessary risk. Spend a little beyond the clubs means - go on, every other club is doing it!!!

Dublin Spur

SuprSi wrote: »

He makes a good point. These Americans aren't ridiculously wealthy Arab's looking to spend some of their fortune that would otherwise be wasting away. They are likely to have seen how well Spurs does financially, as a business, and this is the key driver behind it. I wouldn't be expecting them to come along and throw transfer fees and higher wages at better players as that would disrupt the business model, so it's unlikely much will change and as mentioned in the post above, it could get worse.

agree with you there

Dublin Spur

interesting piece - fraud allegations, that's a first


http://bloomgatefraud.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/will-thfc-be-sold-because-of-fraud.html?view=classic#!/2014/09/will-thfc-be-sold-because-of-fraud.html

yiddo59

Sean Morleys take on things

To Dare is too Dear
'To dare is too dear, To dare is too dear, We're Totttenham Hotspur. to dare is too dear'
It has to be the anthem for Enic. Under their stewardship what exactly is the point of Tottenham Hotspur?

For a supposed cup team, Spurs haven't reached the FA cup final for 23 years, since sky first invented of football. Its the second longest spell in the club's history without appearing in the showpiece final, and one that is probably worse for the fact that for a large proportion of the period between 1921-1961 Spurs were a second division club and there was the small matter of the Second World War. Modern Spurs, with their large budget and large squad have no such excuses.

It goes without saying Spurs are not a title challenging team. That hasn't happened for even longer, going back to the 84/85 season and the collapse in home form. It's probably a little bit too much to ask for now in an era where title winners tend to have owners who are prepared to spend billions and where if a team does show the temerity to suggest it will mount a challenge, the super-powered bankrolled vulture clubs and their agents appear and strip the club of the extraordinary talent, to relegate it back into the ranks of mediocrity.

For a generation of fans that grew up on legendary European matches, and can remember the Tony Parks/ Danny Thomas UEFA Cup final (now sadly 30 years ago and fading away at ever increasing speed) modern UEFA cup football serves as a cure for insomnia. If the club takes the competition seriously it runs the risk that key players will become injured and impact on the rest of the season (see Lennon and Bale in the Inter Milan home game under AVB) There is also the small fact little allowance is made in the fixture list for teams that have successful cup runs. So that by the time the competition becomes serious, the key players get little respite and key injuries can dampen the rest of the season.

And so we are left with the bread and butter of the premier league. It's a rigged race but the rewards are astronomical for failure.

As a boy I chose to support Spurs not because they won much or were really any good, but because they had a certain style and swagger, which meant that when they were good, they were fantastic. There were countless times they weren't very good and some of the abiding memories of the 70's is watching the Big Match showing Spurs with seeming trademark keystone cop defending/. There would be 6 or 7 Spurs players running around the attacking opposition player, as he rolls the ball into the net and the Spurs goalie jumps over the ball. My football nightmares for some reason are always accompanied by the commentary of Brian Moore (culminating in that game at Anfield with Mickey Thomas). There have been fleeting instances of modern magic. Berbatov brought back the memories of the childhood reasons for supporting Spurs with his gliding arrogance, and Bale will probably be the finest player I will ever see in a Spurs shirt, but moving onto modern Spurs, who are they? What do they stand for? What is it that should compel the 6 year old trainspotting football fan to 'Choose life, choose Spurs'

Under the stewardship of Enic I have to say I don't know.

Is there a reason why Spurs want to build a new stadium? It isn't because there are millions of Spurs fans killing each other to get a ticket. Spurs-v Newcastle is on general sale, less than 10 games into the new Pochettino era. For the income? It will certainly increase the stream of income but that will come from the fans who already pay amongst the highest prices in world football to watch their team? But that increased stream will be dwarfed by the torrent of TV money for being in the premier league and ultimately by the money the clubs will hope to make selling the viewing rights online. Given the speed of digital development, it is likely the idea for a massive new stadium will be obsolete before it is built.

And what will they do with that income? The 'investors will pay themselves a bigger return for their investment, that is certain. I doubt it will be invested in the team to improve the team on the pitch. The signature of the current owners for me is captured in two transfer windows. The first was the season Spurs first qualified for the champions league and the team was crying out for an upgrade on the striking options, other than Crouch, Defoe and Super Pav. None was forthcoming and the club banked the extra income. The second was the season that Spurs under Redknapp stood 3rd in the league, going into the January transfer window, and for some reason it was seen as an opportune moment to weaken the squad and and let Bassong, Corluka, Pienaar, Pav and Kranjcer leave, replacing them with the quality that was 34+ Saha and Ryan Nelson.

My take is that the investors of Spurs talk big dreams and like to sack the manager for failing to live up to the 'dream'. But in all the years of their tenure I can't think of very many occasions when the club has signed the players that their chosen manager wanted to balance his team or drive the club forward. The team is always at least one jigsaw piece away. Under Jol we needed a left sided midfielder to balance the team and were linked to the teenage Downing and Adam Johnson. Under AVB and now Poch we have been crying out for a dynamic, dare it be said, Schneiderlin type midfielder to knit the team together- still no sign on the horizon. It's a pity that for all his flaws, Sugar did spend money trying to improve the team, but couldn't choose a manager to spend his money wisely. Arguably the last Spurs manager to be given at least some of the players on his wish list was 666. It's a pity his vision was limited to players like Ben Thatcher. It's a indictment of the investor owners of Spurs that the latest transfer window has failed to deliver any of the names that Poch wanted. Do they not want their chosen man to succeed? I suspect the answer is actually no.

When I look at Spurs under Enic, I see a game plan that demands a return for the minimum outside investment. Gains on the pitch are realised. Any developing superstars are sold. The profit is used to buy more 'jam tomorrow players' rather than invest in the here and now. It all makes for a successful financial model but it isn't one that builds successful football teams. The impression left with me for the years of Enic is that on the occasions Spurs threaten to break that glass ceiling the club reins in any ambition, it trims the squad, it doesn't invest in the obvious jigsaw gaps in the team and it sells the heart of the team. The method of the club serves as a mockery of the slogan attached to every piece of merchandise sold by the club, and suggests that to dare isn't to do, but rather is too dear. So why build a new stadium to celebrate that?

http://www.topspurs.com/NEWSNOW/thfccol-230914a.htm

Dublin Spur

He's bang on the money Pat

And it's becoming a more commonly held view amongst supporters

We're going nowhere with ENIC

Sugarlumps

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29361018

No American take over.

Dublin Spur

Apparently they offered 400mil

SuprSi

Low-balling Levy, or at least Levy & Lewis' valuation of the club.

Dublin Spur

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29527838


value for money ?

Dublin Spur

By Matt Law

4:59PM GMT 26 Oct 2014


Daniel Levy will not wake up on Monday morning and blame himself. After all, he did not decide to drop midweek hat-trick hero Harry Kane to the substitutes’ bench or switch off at the start of the second half to allow Newcastle United to equalise.


But with every managerial change, every false dawn and every step backwards, it is becoming increasingly clear that the root of Tottenham’s problems lie at the door of chairman Levy.


Spurs fans no longer look at the dug-out when they boo a result. Most turned around to aim their frustration at the directors’ box after Newcastle secured their first Premier League victory on the road since March 1. A growing number of supporters do not think anything will truly change until Levy has gone and they are right.


He may like to play up to the image of being the Premier League’s toughest negotiator, the man other chairmen and chief executives hate to deal with. But, at this rate, Levy’s legacy will be as the man who messed it up, the man who negotiated his way into a corner, the man who simply tried to be too clever.


On and off the pitch, Levy is failing. Tottenham are yet to reach agreement on the remaining land to build a new stadium, have not secured the money to finance it and do not know where they will play when it is finally being built.



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Across London, West Ham are looking forward to moving into the Olympic Stadium and sit fourth in the Premier League table after co-owners David Sullivan and David Gold stuck by manager Sam Allardyce.

Tottenham have got progressively worse with each of Levy’s last three sackings. Harry Redknapp secured fourth place, Andre Villas-Boas could only guide Spurs to fifth in the following season and the club slipped to sixth with Tim Sherwood in charge.

Under Mauricio Pochettino and after the defeat at home to Newcastle, Tottenham lie in 11th place after nine games. Of course, managers, head coaches and players are responsible for results, but Levy is to blame for the continuing decline.

Pochettino insisted he does not regret leaving second-placed Southampton to work for Levy and claimed that he must change the weak mentality of his players.

Those are the players Levy spent the Gareth Bale money on, the likes of record signing Erik Lamela, Nacer Chadli, Etienne Capoue and Christian Eriksen.

Tottenham dominated the first half against Newcastle, taking the lead through Emmanuel Adebayor’s header and seeing Chadli squander a great chance moments before the break

Newcastle manager Alan Pardew sent on Remy Cabella and Sammy Ameobi at half-time to stunning effect, and Spurs simply wilted.

Ameobi levelled the scores just six seconds after the restart by latching on to a long ball from Jack Colback that caught the Spurs players snoozing and beating Hugo Lloris.

Then on 58 minutes, Cabella crossed from the left and 21-year-old striker Ayoze Perez marked his first Newcastle start with a goal by heading into the corner of the net.

“It is impossible to go to the pitch not ready to start to play,” said Pochettino. “I think there was a lack of concentration from us.

“We need to work hard on our mentality because it is not tactical, physical - it is concentration and mentality and this is our challenge to improve.

“It is not something where you can analyse the action, sort the tactical situation and move the players. With mentality, we need to work hard. It is not easy. We need to be more strong, like a team. This is our challenge.

“We need to speak, we need to create a different situation on the training ground and work. We know how, but always you need to spend time to work in this area. It is not the same as in physical or tactical situations. It is a different area.”

Pardew revealed he changed his team’s mentality with a half-time blast that helped secure a second successive victory and ease the pressure on his position.

“There were a few strong words,” said Pardew. “It's not nice as a manager to go in and bark out orders, but sometimes it's necessary just to shake people up because we needed shaking up.

“I was pleased they took on board what we talked about because the easy thing in football is talking. You need to show.

“I have not hidden from the criticism. We still have a lot to do in this Premier League season. But today I am going to smile and I am going to enjoy this victory because it’s a big, big win for us.”

Levy will no doubt be looking for somebody to blame. It is time for him to look in the mirror.

Time for ENIC to go ....they've taken us as far as they could. It's not happening for them anymore. So long.