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Ghosts and human energy

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    #32
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    face1990 wrote: »
    It's up to the believer to prove it.

    No-one ever needs to prove anything to anyone else - its up to each individual what they believe. if you dont believe them, fine, but unless you can prove them wrong, its best to say nothing.


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    #33
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    The point isn't whether anybody is entitled to any particular belief it's whether the belief has any grounding in reality.

    ergo, when people believed the earth was flat and thought that claims to the contrary had no grounding in reality, then they were correct? Wow - its amazing the human race has progressed at all with logic like that.


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    #34
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    face1990 wrote: »
    People are entitled to believe whatever they want, but we can only seriously consider those beliefs is there is some sort of evidence to back them up.
    One can believe anything one wants but it doesn't make it true, or even remotely true.

    Completely agree - but personally, whatever beliefs I have, I really dont give a toss who else seriously considers those beliefs to be true. We cant live in a society where personal beliefs are governed by what others think of those thoughts.


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    #35
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    For all you know, it could be an energy which you may never even notice when you are dead. Your energy could exist in some form which is what we would call residual hauntings. Like the stone tape theory, buildings and objects can hold energy. If so, there is no reason to suggest that this isn't what ghosts are. It could very well be.

    Of course some will debate this but i haven't really seen an argument which has convinced me its a stupid theory.


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    #36
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    maccored wrote: »
    ergo, when people believed the earth was flat and thought that claims to the contrary had no grounding in reality, then they were correct? Wow - its amazing the human race has progressed at all with logic like that.

    Theres a huge difference between claiming the earth was round and any of these ghostly claims, evidence,

    The horizon, the shape of the earths shadow on the moon, after the discovery of gravity the fact that gravity is the same everywhere also points to a round earth etc etc.

    This is all testable.


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    #37
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    maccored wrote: »
    Completely agree - but personally, whatever beliefs I have, I really dont give a toss who else seriously considers those beliefs to be true.

    then keep them to yourself


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    #38
    GodlessM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭GodlessM


    face1990 wrote: »
    People are entitled to believe whatever they want, but we can only seriously consider those beliefs is there is some sort of evidence to back them up.

    Tell that to the millions of people that have a serious belief in an all powerful being that lives in the sky.
    housemap wrote: »
    The point isn't whether anybody is entitled to any particular belief it's whether the belief has any grounding in reality.

    Well considering hundreds if not thousands of people all over the world have claimed to have seen ghosts, I'd say it is somewhat grounded in reality. And regardless, if you feel the existance of ghosts isn't possible, then why are you posting in a paranormal forum going 'prove it, prove it' to people that do? Do you get enjoyment out of that? Leave them to discuss in their beliefs.
    housemap wrote: »
    then keep them to yourself

    So now because the guy doesn't let his beliefs be opinionated by others he is not allowed discuss them at all is it? Again I get this vibe that you don't care for any opinion other than those that agree with your own.


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    #39
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    then keep them to yourself

    I do - what exactly is your point?


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    #40
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    GodlessM wrote: »

    So now because the guy doesn't let his beliefs be opinionated by others he is not allowed discuss them at all is it? Again I get this vibe that you don't care for any opinion other than those that agree with your own.

    That's not true I'm very open to any possibility, all I ask for is some evidence, and there is zero of any kind regarding anything paranormal.

    What people think they saw doesn't count for anything, eye witness reports always make me think of the 'did you spot the gorilla' test , most people don't spot the gorilla.


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    #41
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    Theres a huge difference between claiming the earth was round and any of these ghostly claims, evidence,

    The horizon, the shape of the earths shadow on the moon, after the discovery of gravity the fact that gravity is the same everywhere also points to a round earth etc etc.

    This is all testable.

    theres no huge difference. these things are testable now - they werent a thousand or more years ago (when people thought the earth was flat).


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    #42
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    That's not true I'm very open to any possibility, all I ask for is some evidence, and there is zero of any kind regarding anything paranormal.

    What people think they saw doesn't count for anything, eye witness reports always make me think of the 'did you spot the gorilla' test , most people don't spot the gorilla.

    who cares if you want evidence? why should anyone round about trying to get it for you?


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    #43
    face1990
    Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭face1990


    maccored wrote: »
    No-one ever needs to prove anything to anyone else - its up to each individual what they believe. if you dont believe them, fine, but unless you can prove them wrong, its best to say nothing.

    But what would be the point in doing that? Science and our knowledge of the world needs to progress, and can only do so if one tries to discount as many hypotheses as possible, discounting the ones that don't stand up to logical argument.
    housemap wrote: »
    then keep them to yourself

    Similarly, there's no point in discussing this if we don't take everyone's opinions into account and debate all those opinions.
    GodlessM wrote: »
    Tell that to the millions of people that have a serious belief in an all powerful being that lives in the sky.

    I do! I tell as many of them as I can, and with great satisfaction! :D Religion is the biggest farce of all, but that's for a whole other thread!


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    #44
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    maccored wrote: »
    theres no huge difference. these things are testable now - they werent a thousand or more years ago (when people thought the earth was flat).


    what ? there was always a horizon , even 1000 years ago and the earth has always cast a round shadow on the moon.


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    #45
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    maccored wrote: »
    yes, and what powers that electrical signal? where does it come from in the first place?


    It's no secret how we generate electicity, if you are interested heres an article http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/cells-tissues/human-body-make-electricity.htm,

    Theres lots of information out there on pretty much any topic, if you don't know how something works it's worth running a few searches rather than just making something up.


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    #46
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    what ? there was always a horizon , even 1000 years ago and the earth has always cast a round shadow on the moon.

    and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'. Im sure if you were about then, you would have been one of the flat earth believers as there wouldnt have been any proof to the contrary.
    It's no secret how we generate electicity, if you are interested heres an article http://health.howstuffworks.com/huma...lectricity.htm,

    Theres lots of information out there on pretty much any topic, if you don't know how something works it's worth running a few searches rather than just making something up.

    I really, really dont think you are getting my point. why cant dead people generate energy to live? If we know and understand how to generate our own power, then how come we havent invented machines that would just repower people who had died? Im not arguing (obviously) that humans dont generate energy .... I putting the point to you that we dont understand it as well as you believe we do.

    All the same, I suspect you still wont actually get what Im asking.

    by the by - what was I making up again? afaik I was asking questions.


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    #47
    housemap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭housemap


    maccored wrote: »
    and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'. Im sure if you were about then, you would have been one of the flat earth believers as there wouldnt have been any proof to the contrary.

    wow just wow


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    #48
    face1990
    Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭face1990


    maccored wrote: »
    and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'.
    Actually, the Greeks knew the world was round since the 6th century BC. Frankly, I think the flat earth was a bad example, so lets not get to hung up on that one.

    maccored wrote: »
    I really, really dont think you are getting my point. why cant dead people generate energy to live? If we know and understand how to generate our own power, then how come we havent invented machines that would just repower people who had died?

    I think you're taking an over-simplified view of how bodies work. Individual muscles and organs can be kept alive and functioning artificially, using man-made electricity. Entire bodies cannot, afaik, due to the complexity involved in the workings of the body, which is normally regulated and controlled by the body itself.
    It's too complex. It's not a matter of plugging a body into mains socket.


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    #49
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Thats an interesting point. Whole bodies can be kept alive on life support, indefinitely I presume. But if the brain is dead, it will never self support and 'live' again. So basically, human existence, or life, is down to brain activity. And now youre down to the mind/soul ghost-in-the-machine argument. Is our sense of self purely electrical signals?


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    #50
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    housemap wrote: »
    wow just wow

    yes, well ...... another fine contribution
    face1990 wrote:
    Actually, the Greeks knew the world was round since the 6th century BC. Frankly, I think the flat earth was a bad example, so lets not get to hung up on that one.

    Yes agreed, it was - but the point I was making is that throughout history theres always been people who believe that current scientific knowledge knows everything - usually by people who dont understand that science never sleeps, and is always learning.
    face1990 wrote:
    I think you're taking an over-simplified view of how bodies work. Individual muscles and organs can be kept alive and functioning artificially, using man-made electricity. Entire bodies cannot, afaik, due to the complexity involved in the workings of the body, which is normally regulated and controlled by the body itself.
    It's too complex. It's not a matter of plugging a body into mains socket.

    Again agreed - I was simplifying it as housemap didnt seem to know where I was going with it. it is basically an argument on the mind/soul as oryz suggests.

    It is a question though that has to be pondered if you ask me - though it can simply be ignored at the same time. people take it for granted that when we are alive we have 'life' - I just wanted to know what powers that. what is it really?

    You could tie that in with the mind and conciousness - its either a by product of the brain or its something like a soul - which ties back to the OP of 'energy'.

    now maybe Im wrong, and this isnt a forum for thinking. Maybe its just a place to attempt to slag people off about 'beliefs'? (though admittedly I havent decided which side of the argument I fall on tbh)


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    #51
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    maccored wrote: »
    now maybe Im wrong, and this isnt a forum for thinking. Maybe its just a place to attempt to slag people off about 'beliefs'? (though admittedly I havent decided which side of the argument I fall on tbh)
    It depends on the argument, which side I fall on.

    I hope this place is not a venue to slag off beliefs, because it would be a charter breach to do so. BUT opinion and debate is allowed.

    The topic of whether we can exist separate from our brain is something I have an interest in seeing debated. Though I think the general scientific view is a big fat NO.

    It is one idea on how ghosts and paranormal phenomena exist, another is that of collective consciousness, that somehow we access a universal source of information.


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    #52
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    its a toughie though. general scientific thinking cant find anything outside the body, which points at the brain being responsible for thought, consciousness etc as theres just no way to delve any deeper. back to Sagan's "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" theory.

    I think debating it would be hard tbh


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