learner drivers getting hung out to dry once again

spider_pig

the way learner drivers are trained, tested and licensed is being overhauled as part of new measures announced today. New learner drivers will now have to take 12 hours of compulsory driving lessons and produce a signed log, showing that they underwent supervised practise, before they can sit their driving test.
'R' plates for newly qualified drivers, increased penalty points and stricter sentences for learner and novice drivers who break road traffic laws were also announced.
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The Road Safety Authority has announced a number of changes to the learner driver system.
Driving lessons have always been a voluntary undertaking, but now they are to be made compulsory.
From 4 April 2011, new learner drivers will have to undergo 12 hours of compulsory lessons.
The compulsory lessons will have to be taken with an approved driving instructor and learners will not be able to sit their test until they can prove they have undergone this training.
Those applying for a motorbike license will have to do 16 hours and this rule comes into force on 6 December this year.
A signed log showing the driver underwent around 20 hours of supervised training will also have to be produced.
Some penalty points for learners will be doubled and they will also have a lower drink-driving limit.
The theory test and driving test will be overhauled and new sentencing options are also being developed.
Newly qualified drivers will also be subject to the new measures.
For the first two years after they pass their test, they will have to display a restricted 'R' plate and undergo a hazard perception test.
The new rules only apply to those who get their first license after these measures come into force.

Safety the key - Dempsey
Speaking about today's announcement, Transport Minister Noel Dempsey said what he and the Road Safety Authority was trying to do was make sure that when young people get cars they are safe and that other road users are safe.
Mr Dempsey said some horrific incidents had highlighted the need for increased vigilance.
He said the Government was trying to make sure that whoever goes on the road has some training, experience and skill and that they are not a danger to themselves and to others.
A young person between 17 and 24 getting into a car is five times more likely to die than a person older than that, he said.
He acknowledged that parts of the new measures would be difficult to police, but added that he believed that if you asked parents of young people who have been killed on the roads whether they thought it was a good idea, they would say yes.
Parents do have to take some responsibility for younger people, he added.

some of the stuff there coming out with is a little over the top

PFL

spider_pig wrote: »

some of the stuff there coming out with is a little over the top

Like what OP?

Cookie_Monster

what you should have said is Learners getting off lightly with stupid unenforcable rules. "Here sign this dad, thanks"

falan

Harsh, good job i passed my test last week so this won't affect me:P

mojesius

falan wrote: »

Harsh, good job i passed my test last week so this won't affect me:P

Yeah thank jeebaz I passed mine last month! We rock.

Minstrel27

You should see what learners must do in some other countries OP.

jaffa20

12 lessons is an acceptable amount. They were considering 30 lessons!

starlit

I fully agree with the 12 compulsory driving lessons for learner drivers! I am one myself. Hopefully I be ready for my test before next April not too sure about that myself! Fingers crossed I be confident to drive properly again...:o

I was expecting that it would either be 10 or 20 lessons and that it would start the end of this summer or this year. Its high time there were new proposals for this. I agree with the 'R' plates for two years aswell. Think they have something like that in Australia.

Morlar

PFL wrote: »

Like what OP?

Well a lot of people especially growing up on farms will know how to drive a car without needing 16x lessons from a driving instructor. A lot more people are more comfortable learning from a partner or a parent so making lessons from driving schools/instructors compulsory to those people simply means additional un-needed cost. The cost of lessons has gone up a lot - someone recently told me (this could be way wrong) it was now €50 per lesson. I'd prefer them to overhaul the TEST system rather than making driving instructors compulsory.

The other parts about R plates for 2x years and increased penalty points I would agree with.

Cookie_Monster

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You should see what learners must do in some other countries OP.

+1

the system here is so massively flawed. Its far to easy a test and the complete lack of any structured training is also wrong.

having said that, I'm glad I already have a licence and won't have to put up with all that BS.


Why no mention of re-tests every ten years or similar to ensure standards don't lapse?

Daith

Why do we need to wait till April of next year for this to come in?

Cookie_Monster

Morlar wrote: »

Well a lot of people especially growing up on farms will know how to drive a car without needing 16x lessons from a driving instructor. A lot more people are more comfortable learning from a partner or a parent so making lessons compulsory to those people simply means additional un-needed cost. The cost of lessons has gone up a lot - someone recently told me (this could be way wrong) it was now €50 per lesson. I'd prefer them to overhaul the TEST system rather than making driving instructors compulsory.

The other parts about R plates for 2x years and increased penalty points I would agree with.

there is an awful lot more to driving than knowing how to actually drive a car though. Instructors will be able to see if you observe properly, react to thing, know rules of the road etc etc

Dutchess

Hmm, that rule will just about pass me by.

I am in favour of the 12 lesson rule though and the R plates might not be a bad idea either. Regarding the R plates though...I expect to pass my test this coming December. Would I start having the L plates from April or would I (and people in similar situations) not need to do this?

But this: 'increased penalty points and stricter sentences for learner and novice drivers who break road traffic laws were also announced'. Does this mean that learners were let off the hook easy before because they were learning and theyre starting to clamp down on them more now, in the way they might clamp down on the experienced driver, then yeah, that sounds fine. I do think it makes sense to assume that when a driver is in the car without the instructor, they can expect to follow the rules.

HavingCrack

I never thought Fianna Fail would ever come out with anything I approve of but every suggestion in this is worthwhile.

Morlar

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there is an awful lot more to driving than knowing how to actually drive a car though. Instructors will be able to see if you observe properly, react to thing, know rules of the road etc etc

And nowhere did I say 'it's just about knowing how the car operates'. I am aware (and it should really go without having to say) there is more to driving a car than knowing how it operates.

ShadowGal

spider_pig wrote: »

some of the stuff there coming out with is a little over the top

i dont see a problem here, compulsory lessons arent exactly over the top. that just means uncle john cant teach you for a half an hour on a sunday before you jump in and drive on your merry way

xOxSinéadxOx

What does R stand for? I've already passed my theory test, will this effect me when I go to do my test? or just the people who haven't passed their theory test yet

Myrddin

HavingCrack wrote: »

I never thought Fianna Fail would ever come out with anything I approve of but every suggestion in this is worthwhile.

Pity they neglected to add motorway training as part of the overhaul. As it stands you can have a full driving license, without ever having driven an inch on a motorway.

Someones cousins ant's uncles nephew who is a driving instructor will no doubt be signing the forms at 50 quid a pop soon.

starlit

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

What does R stand for? I've already passed my theory test, will this effect me when I go to do my test? or just the people who haven't passed their theory test yet

'R' stands for Restricted.

Thoie

How much does it cost to become an approved driving instructor? If it cost about the same as 10-12 lessons, and if you had more than one kid, it'd probably be worth your while to do the training and then teach your own children. If you think you're good enough to teach your children to drive, then you should be good enough to pass the tests surely?

Cookie_Monster

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

What does R stand for? I've already passed my theory test, will this effect me when I go to do my test? or just the people who haven't passed their theory test yet

Restricted

This will probably be watered down or dropped by the times these proposals go live. These are only suggestions at the moment, nothing more. If everything in the press release make it to April I will be very surprised.

HavingCrack

Thoie wrote: »

How much does it cost to become an approved driving instructor? If it cost about the same as 10-12 lessons, and if you had more than one kid, it'd probably be worth your while to do the training and then teach your own children. If you think you're good enough to teach your children to drive, then you should be good enough to pass the tests surely?

I was chatting to my driving instructor about this when I was learning and he said there's quite a bit of training involved-I think 1 year or so?? If I'm wrong someone correct me

mojesius

Thoie wrote: »

How much does it cost to become an approved driving instructor? If it cost about the same as 10-12 lessons, and if you had more than one kid, it'd probably be worth your while to do the training and then teach your own children. If you think you're good enough to teach your children to drive, then you should be good enough to pass the tests surely?

Unfortunately, not a once-off test. IDA approved instructors have to be retested every couple of years, as far as I know.

starlit

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

What does R stand for? I've already passed my theory test, will this effect me when I go to do my test? or just the people who haven't passed their theory test yet

It will only affect those who have already passed their theory test now and not done a driving test by the 4th of April. It will mainly affect those who do their test after the 4th of April, the proposed date of intruducing these laws.

starlit

Thoie wrote: »

How much does it cost to become an approved driving instructor? If it cost about the same as 10-12 lessons, and if you had more than one kid, it'd probably be worth your while to do the training and then teach your own children. If you think you're good enough to teach your children to drive, then you should be good enough to pass the tests surely?

Not sure, but I'd say it be fairly expensive not sure if it cost the same as traditional learner driver lessons. There are special driving schools for training those who want to become driving instructors as far as I know.
I think you have to pass about three tests to become a full fledged driving instructor and be tested on a regular baises. You be monitored as an approved driving instructor by the Road Saftey Authority. When you become a driving instructor you must be registered as an ADI under the Road Saftey Authority otherwise its is illegal for you to give lessons.

F1ngers

Morlar wrote: »

Well a lot of people especially growing up on farms will know how to drive a car without needing 16x lessons from a driving instructor. A lot more people are more comfortable learning from a partner or a parent so making lessons from driving schools/instructors compulsory to those people simply means additional un-needed cost. The cost of lessons has gone up a lot - someone recently told me (this could be way wrong) it was now €50 per lesson. I'd prefer them to overhaul the TEST system rather than making driving instructors compulsory.

The other parts about R plates for 2x years and increased penalty points I would agree with.

Not a lot of partners/parents are good drivers, you would also be learning any bad habits they may have picked up.

starlit

F1ngers wrote: »

Not a lot of partners/parents are good drivers, you would also be learning any bad habits they may have picked up.

Ya I agree. I have picked up more bad habits from a parent than good habits and have had driving instructors try and get me out of those bad habits. Still have a few to this day but the worse of them have been sorted out.

spider_pig

PFL wrote: »

Like what OP?

well not exactly over the top but a bit harsh for people starting out it cost enough money as it is just to get on the road with out adding more money to it.personally it dont effect me but i thought it was very harsh on those people starting out as first time drivers with what was brought in there a while ago and now this

imo i think this country has gone mad :eek:

Amhran Nua

Thoie wrote: »

and if you had more than one kid, it'd probably be worth your while to do the training and then teach your own children.

Never mind that, it'd be well worth your while to go into business as a driving instructor! I predict a surge in demand by next year, and at €35 an hour or so you could be cleaning up for a half weeks work.

DonJose

Given the number of teenagers that have died in road accidents over the past couple of weeks/months, I'd like to see the learner permit scapped altogether. We should adapt the German driving license system.

starlit

spider_pig wrote: »

well not exactly over the top but a bit harsh for people starting out it cost enough money as it is just to get on the road with out adding more money to it.personally it dont effect me but i thought it was very harsh on those people starting out as first time drivers with what was brought in there a while ago and now this

imo i think this country has gone mad :eek:

Yes I think its more harsh on those who are new learner drivers and just starting out now. I have been learning for two years and its been quiet pricey. I understand the costs while newer learner drivers will be hit hard a lot more if there is a possibility that price of lessons could increase in price. I have had to shop around for good value. Got the value I wanted but don't know if I learnt enough from the instructor to be worth the value. I be willing to pay more If I knew the driving instructor would get me to a pass standard for the driving test and get me out of the constant rut I am in at the moment where I am stopping and starting, not making any progress from who ever I am being taught by to learn to drive and have to face starting from scratch again!:(

CrazyRabbit

These changes presume that most accidents are caused by lack of skill/training. That's simply not the case. It's lack of experience and a disregard for the rules of the road and indeed for other motorists.

All they need to do is hand out 2 year driving bans for any motoring offence and you'll instantly see much a better standard of driving.

CreepingDeath

spider_pig wrote: »

learner drivers getting hung out to dry once again

Proper order too.

I was driving home from Drogheda on Sunday and saw two learner drivers on the M1/M50 badly undertaking and cutting up people in the right hand lane.
The second learner driver overtook as many cars as possible before cutting into the left hand lane about 100 metres from the exit ramp.

Definitely agree that there should be increased penalties for learner drivers.

starlit

Its not just a lack of skill/experience, Its speed is the biggest culprit after that is drunk driving/over the limit, wrecklessness, poor judgement/decision making and not knowing the rules of the road have all a part to play in accidents.

pow wow

I think they should have those 'how is my driving?' stickers on the back with a phone number like some vans have

starlit

pow wow wrote: »

I think they should have those 'how is my driving?' stickers on the back with a phone number like some vans have

That might be an idea!

Might be a good idea for those who got their licences at the post office before it was compulsory to do a driving test, to consider doing a driving specialised driving test for them now! That'll teach them!

Irishchick

Learner drivers are not the problem. Its speed. I know plenty of fully licensed drivers who drive like lunatics.

There needs to a be a bigger clamp down on speed and the Garda need to actually enforce the rules of the road.

Dartz

Now watch the price of lessons go up and up....

It'll be just like the insurance. Because it's mandatory, they'll charge an arm and a bloody leg for it.

Ali Babba

I don't agree that speed is the problem, it's lack of respect for other road users and lack of skill and experience are the main factors. I think these new measures are over the top as usual in this country like most measures to control the public here, baffle them and tie them up with rules and regulations and when anyone asks a question nobody knows the answer or is there to police it anyway.

viclemronny

snuggles285 wrote: »

Yes I think its more harsh on those who are new learner drivers and just starting out now. I have been learning for two years and its been quiet pricey. I understand the costs while newer learner drivers will be hit hard a lot more if there is a possibility that price of lessons could increase in price. I have had to shop around for good value. Got the value I wanted but don't know if I learnt enough from the instructor to be worth the value. I be willing to pay more If I knew the driving instructor would get me to a pass standard for the driving test and get me out of the constant rut I am in at the moment where I am stopping and starting, not making any progress from who ever I am being taught by to learn to drive and have to face starting from scratch again!:(

Am I to understand by this that you have been driving on the roads for the guts of 2 years without yet passing a test stating that you are capable of safely driving?

starlit

viclemronny wrote: »

Am I to understand by this that you have been driving on the roads for the guts of 2 years without yet passing a test stating that you are capable of safely driving?

Yes I have been learning to drive the past two years but It has been very broken such as I have a couple of months of lessons, then stop due to bad weather conditions and other comittments and might not drive again for 2-4 months, confidence breaks down, nerves get the better of me again and then start driving again and the same cycle starts again...so never have been able to constantly drive on a monthly basis since I started. I'd say I really only have about a years driving experience overall. I really still see myself as a beginner still and no where near ready for my test. Neve done one. Hope to within the next year.

starbelgrade

Reasons why this proposed legislations is a pile of c*ck;

1. The most dangerous drivers on the road, statistically, are male drivers aged 17-24. Women drivers in the same age bracket are statistically the safest drivers on the road out of all road users, yet they are being lumped into the same category as young men, making it very inequitable.

2. This legislation will apply to all learner drivers, so even someone in their 30s will be lumped in with the young male drivers.

3. Systems like this are in place across Europe, yet there is no evidence to suggest that they reduce accidents at all. In fact Ireland - which doesn't yet have the system - has the safest roads per capita in Europe after Norway (which has much better roads).

4. It will be extremely difficult to police.

5. It will cost parents of young people, or young people themselves, around an extra €500 to get a driving license, without any evidence at all to suggest that it will reduce road deaths or accidents.



The main problem on our roads are young male drivers - mainly due to the fact that they take more risks than everybody else. The only way to gurantee that they reduce their level of risk taking is to reduce their levels of testosterone, but as that's not going to happen, you have to look at alternative methods & not blanket schemes that will cost everybody more money & most likely will achieve nothing.

It's a typical Irish solution to a problem - instead of examining the problem carefully & coming up with an educated & informed solution, we are yet again bringing in legislation purely as a knee-jerk reaction & to be seen to be doing something.

lord lucan

This also includes Motorcycles too btw. The new Compulsory Basic Training for Motorcycles takes effect from December 6th. You'll need 16 hours of training on a bike.

Noffles

Just learn to drive, pass your test then go out and drive... like they do in any normal country... if you haven't passed a test.. don't drive, unless accompanied by a driver!

inforfun

pow wow wrote: »

I think they should have those 'how is my driving?' stickers on the back with a phone number like some vans have

Yes.. with a voting system so you can vote them off the road

spider_pig

Noffles wrote: »

Just learn to drive

ya should tell that to the taxi drivers of dublin

mikemac

If I were unemployed with a car and reckoned I could pass an advanced driving test then I'd be jumping for joy at this.

A lot of people are going to try to get into this self employed market

12 hours for cars and 16 hours for motorcycles.

I agree with whats being proposed etc.

But i had to laugh earlier when i saw a driving instructor complain that 12 lessons wasn't enough, he recommended 20 or 30.

Obviously thinking about his pocket.

Dempsey

This is just a complete money racket, like the NCT. If I was doing my test again, I'd be foaming at the mouth over this.

Is there proper figures to even support this legislation? I doubt it.

Drake66

Morlar wrote: »

Well a lot of people especially growing up on farms will know how to drive a car without needing 16x lessons from a driving instructor. A lot more people are more comfortable learning from a partner or a parent so making lessons from driving schools/instructors compulsory to those people simply means additional un-needed cost. The cost of lessons has gone up a lot - someone recently told me (this could be way wrong) it was now €50 per lesson. I'd prefer them to overhaul the TEST system rather than making driving instructors compulsory.

The other parts about R plates for 2x years and increased penalty points I would agree with.

If you cannot afford the price 12 mandatory lessons you have no business being on the road. Driving is an expensive privilege, not an carefree right. This jackie healy rae country cop out is maddening: just because you are from a rural background does not excuse you from the requirement to learn how to drive correctly; and getting a few lessons from Bill down the road does not constitute learning how to drive.

Dempsey

Drake66 wrote: »

If you cannot afford the price 12 mandatory lessons you have no business being on the road. Driving is an expensive privilege, not an carefree right. This jackie healy rae country cop out is maddening: just because you are from a rural background does not excuse you from the requirement to learn how to drive correctly; and getting a few lessons from Bill down the road does not constitute learning how to drive.

Then whats the point of forcing a fully licensed driver beside you if they aren't helping/good enough to show you how to drive. You saying the provisional system should be scrapped?

My father taught me more about driving than my 'RSA-ADI'. The ADI just helped me get through the red tape for cheaper car insurance, thats it.