learner drivers getting hung out to dry once again

Kidchameleon

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Proper order too.

I was driving home from Drogheda on Sunday and saw two learner drivers on the M1/M50 badly undertaking and cutting up people in the right hand lane.
The second learner driver overtook as many cars as possible before cutting into the left hand lane about 100 metres from the exit ramp.

Definitely agree that there should be increased penalties for learner drivers.

Just because there's an L sign on the car, doesn't necessarily mean there's a learner behind the wheel...

Another point, will insurance companies take advantage of this R plate thing? Like, charge unreal amounts until the R plate comes off?

johnmcdnl

For all you city drivers here who think your above us culchies when it comes to learning to drive - have you being driving cars from 10 or 11 years of age down your lane or around the yard - didn't think so

what have any of ye learned in a driving lesson - how to do hill starts, how to reverse around corners, how to use your indicator etc etc

every young lad and a fair few girls around the place have been doing this from when our legs were long enough to reach the pedals...

making the likes of us have to do 12 lessons is absolutely unfair - there's nothing major we're going to learn at a lesson

3-4 lessons is more than enough for anyone who's well fit to drive...

and for those who's going to jump in and say my parents are qualified instructors - neither of my parents have been in a crash or anything like it for as long as I can remember - are you saying that what they teach me is dangerous or wrong?? if it's done them why can't it do me...


I'll admit that I probably need a couple of lessons to learn a few little bits here and there and to help me pass the test - but forcing 12 hours of lessons or whatever it is is completed unfair and is going to prevent a lot of young people from learning to drive - not everyone car afford that much for lessons especially seeing as they can already drive fairly confidently...

it's something ye city folk will never understand - we've grown up in cars unlike you and ye'll never get that... it's second nature to us using cars in tight situations etc etc etc....

12 hours of lessons isn't going to do anything to make the road safer - do you honestly think 12 hours of lessons is going to make the lads that want to rally round the roads stop - no - i didn't think so... this will just make it harder to get a license is all - nothing else

CD.

the lower alcohol limit is stupid, alcohol in your system is alcohol in your system.

a 19 year old and 40 year old with the same alcohol level would be of equal risk, if anything, the 40 year old would be more dangerous because they could think that, as their alcohol limit is higher, they are safer after drinking.

the limit should be the same for everyone, if they are going to lower it, they should lower it for everyone and not just restricted drivers.

round tower huntsman

well since i got my full license i do actually agree that L drivers are a danger to the public and should be persecuted relentlessly:D

starbelgrade

Dempsey wrote: »

This is just a complete money racket, like the NCT. If I was doing my test again, I'd be foaming at the mouth over this.

Is there proper figures to even support this legislation? I doubt it.

Yes - I pointed out some RSA statistics in my last post.

Another point to note is that this is being suggested, even though we have the 2nd safest roads in Europe & that last year saw the least amount of road fatalities in the country ever.

Kidchameleon

CD. wrote: »

the lower alcohol limit is stupid, alcohol in your system is alcohol in your system.

a 19 year old and 40 year old with the same alcohol level would be of equal risk, if anything, the 40 year old would be more dangerous because they could think that, as their alcohol limit is higher, they are safer after drinking.

the limit should be the same for everyone, if they are going to lower it, they should lower it for everyone and not just restricted drivers.

+1

You shouldn't get behind the wheel with so much as a tea spoon of beer...

Drake66

johnmcdnl wrote: »

For all you city drivers here who think your above us culchies when it comes to learning to drive - have you being driving cars from 10 or 11 years of age down your lane or around the yard - didn't think so

what have any of ye learned in a driving lesson - how to do hill starts, how to reverse around corners, how to use your indicator etc etc

every young lad and a fair few girls around the place have been doing this from when our legs were long enough to reach the pedals...

making the likes of us have to do 12 lessons is absolutely unfair - there's nothing major we're going to learn at a lesson

3-4 lessons is more than enough for anyone who's well fit to drive. ..

and for those who's going to jump in and say my parents are qualified instructors - neither of my parents have been in a crash or anything like it for as long as I can remember - are you saying that what they teach me is dangerous or wrong?? if it's done them why can't it do me...


I'll admit that I probably need a couple of lessons to learn a few little bits here and there and to help me pass the test - but forcing 12 hours of lessons or whatever it is is completed unfair and is going to prevent a lot of young people from learning to drive - not everyone car afford that much for lessons especially seeing as they can already drive fairly confidently...

it's something ye city folk will never understand - we've grown up in cars unlike you and ye'll never get that... it's second nature to us using cars in tight situations etc etc etc....

12 hours of lessons isn't going to do anything to make the road safer - do you honestly think 12 hours of lessons is going to make the lads that want to rally round the roads stop - no - i didn't think so... this will just make it harder to get a license is all - nothing else

Yeah exactly you do three lessons and everything is perfect; and because you are from the country you are as skilled as Jackie Stewart. You are the best drivers in the world no doubt.

Naikon

This is complete bull****. Why on earth are the RSA introducing the concept of driving "homework" along with mandatory "RSA approved" lessons. Sounds like a money making racket to me. Is there any statistical evidence to actually back up these decisions, or is this the product of our Irish nanny state? I fail to see how these rules will actually reduce road deaths per year. Silly move on the RSA's part. Looks like I will have to get my licence up north from now on...

Dempsey

Drake66 wrote: »

Yeah exactly you do three lessons and everything is perfect; and because you are from the country you are as skilled as Jackie Stewart. You are the best drivers in the world no doubt.

I know of people good enough to pass the test 1st time and zero lessons, no doubt they arent the only ones, no doubt there are people that dont need 12 lessons to prove themselves too. Why should everyone be subjected to the rules needed for the incompetent? The current system does catch them out.

johnmcdnl

Drake66 wrote: »

Yeah exactly you do three lessons and everything is perfect; and because you are from the country you are as skilled as Jackie Stewart. You are the best drivers in the world no doubt.

well seeing as a lot of us have 10 years of driving behind us compared to you's who have maybe 8-9 months before going for a test

I'm sure I've picked a bit since I started driving



this isn't going to save lives - that's the point - if if was genuinely going to save lives then I would have no problem but it won't - young lads who want to drive at 100mph on a back country road are going to do it still regardless of these new rules so it's just a money making racket and looks good to the public so the government's rating goes up - it's just putting unnecessary costs on young people wanting to learn to drive

it's just completely unfair - I'm sure jackie steward jr wouldn't need 12 lessons either seeing as you mentioned him - would 12 lessons make him a better driver:rolleyes: if you need 12 lessons you'll know yourself but if micky joe can go in and pass without ever getting a lesson micky joe shouldn't have to pay 600 euro in lessons to "learn"

sock puppet

johnmcdnl wrote: »

For all you city drivers here who think your above us culchies when it comes to learning to drive - have you being driving cars from 10 or 11 years of age down your lane or around the yard - didn't think so

what have any of ye learned in a driving lesson - how to do hill starts, how to reverse around corners, how to use your indicator etc etc

every young lad and a fair few girls around the place have been doing this from when our legs were long enough to reach the pedals...

making the likes of us have to do 12 lessons is absolutely unfair - there's nothing major we're going to learn at a lesson

3-4 lessons is more than enough for anyone who's well fit to drive...

and for those who's going to jump in and say my parents are qualified instructors - neither of my parents have been in a crash or anything like it for as long as I can remember - are you saying that what they teach me is dangerous or wrong?? if it's done them why can't it do me...


I'll admit that I probably need a couple of lessons to learn a few little bits here and there and to help me pass the test - but forcing 12 hours of lessons or whatever it is is completed unfair and is going to prevent a lot of young people from learning to drive - not everyone car afford that much for lessons especially seeing as they can already drive fairly confidently...

it's something ye city folk will never understand - we've grown up in cars unlike you and ye'll never get that... it's second nature to us using cars in tight situations etc etc etc....

12 hours of lessons isn't going to do anything to make the road safer - do you honestly think 12 hours of lessons is going to make the lads that want to rally round the roads stop - no - i didn't think so... this will just make it harder to get a license is all - nothing else

Bravo. It's rare that you see such an excellent and well thought out display of chippiness.

L.Jenkins

Given the new measures, all I can say is thank god I passed mine. Cheap car Insurance Now Im off to go and get a bus license.

Drake66

Reading some of this nonsense is giving me the distinct impression that this is a magnificent idea by the RSA. I wonder could they also recommend that certain "special" individuals be mandated for extra lessons past the statutory 12.

allthedoyles

Dempsey wrote: »

This is just a complete money racket, like the NCT. If I was doing my test again, I'd be foaming at the mouth over this.
Is there proper figures to even support this legislation? I doubt it.

Safety on the roads - safety on the roads - safety on the roads

What statistics do you need :
a person died on the roads last night - a person died on the roads the night before - a person died on the roads few days before -

All these people under 30 ................If you cannot find statistics to support this move , you must be driving around with your eyes closed .

johnmcdnl

allthedoyles wrote: »

Safety on the roads - safety on the roads - safety on the roads

What statistics do you need :
a person died on the roads last night - a person died on the roads the night before - a person died on the roads few days before -

All these people under 30 ................If you cannot find statistics to support this move , you must be driving around with your eyes closed .

and will making them paying 600 euro make these slow down and not drive at a million miles an hour around back roads????
doubt any amount of lessons is going to change of these lads mindset is it??

L.Jenkins

allthedoyles wrote: »

All these people under 30 ................If you cannot find statistics to support this move , you must be driving around with your eyes closed .

Im under 30 and the vast majority of drivers killed in the last few months have been under 30. The thought of sharing the road outright carless drivers is a nightmare and I've seen way too many not to be worried. So this new proposal could be a good thing. Some restrictions should also apply to drivers who have just obtained their license as the learning process doesnt stop there.

Naikon

Dempsey wrote: »

I know of people good enough to pass the test 1st time and zero lessons, no doubt they arent the only ones, no doubt there are people that dont need 12 lessons to prove themselves too. Why should everyone be subjected to the rules needed for the incompetent? The current system does catch them out.

Exactly. I know people who passed on the first go. One in particular stood out, because he barely scraped the theory test, took the minimum number of lessons
he could, and also applied at the earliest possible date. Pass on the first attempt:pac:

thethedev

starbelgrade wrote: »

Reasons why this proposed legislations is a pile of c*ck;

1. The most dangerous drivers on the road, statistically, are male drivers aged 17-24. Women drivers in the same age bracket are statistically the safest drivers on the road out of all road users, yet they are being lumped into the same category as young men, making it very inequitable.

Statistically only. Look at the real figures, more young men on the road = more young men in accidents. You can play statistics anyway you want. Look at it logically, inexperience is the problem. Therefore penalise them all equally.
Having a cock doesnt cause you to crash, being a cock does.
Who do insurance want to charge more? The minority are the majority? They only have an excuse to charge younger drivers and because most of them are male well then charge them and leave the females alone so it looks like some thought has been put into it.

And lads who've been driving cars around fields etc So you can drive the thing but do you know what to do in traffic situations? Rules of the road are probably the biggest thing you need to learn.

I agree though that its not fair that someone who can drive a car fine has to endure the hill starts reversing around corners crap. The only way around it I suppose though is a skill test on closed roads before taking lessons or something along those lines? But thats expensive to implement and a bit of a nuisance.

Anyway if I had it my way everyone would have to spend a year driving a twist and go moped yoke before being let anywhere near a car. Teaches you the rules without bogging you down with technicalities of manouvering and driving, plus you learn to respect vulnerable road users and you need to think ahead alot and read the road even on a wee 50cc yoke.

Drake66

Dempsey wrote: »

I know of people good enough to pass the test 1st time and zero lessons, no doubt they arent the only ones, no doubt there are people that dont need 12 lessons to prove themselves too. Why should everyone be subjected to the rules needed for the incompetent? The current system does catch them out.

Driving lessons are not just for passing a test: they are for instructing an individual in safe driving practice, hazard perception, rules of the road etc. I'm sure an imbecile can pass a driving test with no formal driving on a good day; the faiths do shine on certain individuals from time to time, even imbeciles.

Naikon

Drake66 wrote: »

Driving lessons are not just for passing a test: they are for instructing an individual in safe driving practice, hazard perception, rules of the road etc. I'm sure an imbecile can pass a driving test with no formal driving on a good day; the faiths do shine on certain individuals from time to time, even imbeciles.

Most "rules of the road" aren't even practiced by most drivers in the ROI. Hell, I see people near the local roundabout, that don't even know how to navigate it properly. I get the impression most people learn the rules of the road for the test, impress the driving tester, and then forget those said rules for the rest of their days. Barring ones that can get you into serious trobule if you choose to ignore(Moterway based rules for example). I wonder how some people actually manage to pass a driving test, let alone remember correct driving conduct.

Common sense > stupid legislation/rules

Drake66

Naikon wrote: »

Most "rules of the road" aren't even practiced by most drivers in the ROI. Hell, I see people near the local roundabout, that don't even know how to navigate it properly. I get the impression most people learn the rules of the road for the test, impress the driving tester, and then forget those said rules for the rest of their days. Barring ones that can get you into serious trobule if you choose to ignore(Moterway based rules for example). I wonder how some people actually manage to pass a driving test, let alone remember correct driving conduct.

Common sense > stupid legislation/rules

:D:D
Can you not see the causal relationship!

allthedoyles

johnmcdnl wrote: »

and will making them paying 600 euro make these slow down and not drive at a million miles an hour around back roads????
doubt any amount of lessons is going to change of these lads mindset is it??

Education has to be the key - If you have an alternative , share it with us

stovelid

Shut it.

Learn to drive.

Pass your test.

nullzero

I passed my test six years ago, my empathy for learners went in the bin with my L plates:pac:

Chorcai

Anything to help kerb these deaths of young people on the roads has to be welcome, we all need a wake up call which, IMHO was the last 2 horrific crashes in Donegal and Cork and all the drivers need to cop the fúck on.

stovelid

We also need a law to put people in jail for having those dickheaded tiny-L plates that are trying hard not to be L plates. I've no doubt the people sporting them on their cars are the same ones that never stop whining about the rank injustice of being forced to learn to drive and pass a driving test.

Faith+1

stovelid wrote: »

We also need a law to put people in jail for having those dickheaded tiny-L plates that are trying hard not to be L plates. I've no doubt the people sporting them on their cars are the same ones that never stop whining about the rank injustice of being forced to learn to drive and pass a driving test.

+1 My heart bleeds for them.:p

johnmcdnl

allthedoyles wrote: »

Education has to be the key - If you have an alternative , share it with us

education exactly - not 12 driving lessons that's my point

try to teach them not to speed or what happens when they crash...

this isn't doing that - this is just making them learn how to reverse around a corner 12 times instead of once........
this is making them drive around a town 12 times and pay for it instead of how many lessons they think they need...

this isn't education - this isn't going to help


this won't change the mindset of these young lads - that's what I'm saying and these young lads mindset is what's killing the young lads - not having too few driving lessons

I honestly dunno how to get through the young lads - but this isn't fair on any young person who actually does want to learn to drive and has learned to drive in there own time and are fit to pass the test already
if you can pass the test with no lessons you shouldn't have to do lessons - simple as that - make the test harder if you want but forcing lesson's that cost money on people is just unfair over a handful of young lads who think it's cool to rally round the roads doing handbrake turns and whatever else....

this measure isn't going to change mindsets - so it isn't going to be effective

maybe if they taught us how to drive at speed it might help - but that obviously is a stupid idea - seeing as most crashes happen on back roads in the middle of the night - not in the middle of the town doing 20mph max...

i dunno what has to be done to change mindsets because it's not my job to figure it out and I just dunno tbh - but this won't help

starbelgrade

johnmcdnl wrote: »

seeing as most crashes happen on back roads in the middle of the night - not in the middle of the town doing 20mph max...

The most dangerous hours for road deaths is 6pm - 8pm.

Overheal

So which driving-lesson company is washing which TD's balls for this?

johnmcdnl

johnmcdnl wrote: »

For all you city drivers here who think your above us culchies when it comes to learning to drive - have you being driving cars from 10 or 11 years of age down your lane or around the yard - didn't think so

what have any of ye learned in a driving lesson - how to do hill starts, how to reverse around corners, how to use your indicator etc etc

every young lad and a fair few girls around the place have been doing this from when our legs were long enough to reach the pedals...

making the likes of us have to do 12 lessons is absolutely unfair - there's nothing major we're going to learn at a lesson

3-4 lessons is more than enough for anyone who's well fit to drive...

and for those who's going to jump in and say my parents are qualified instructors - neither of my parents have been in a crash or anything like it for as long as I can remember - are you saying that what they teach me is dangerous or wrong?? if it's done them why can't it do me...


I'll admit that I probably need a couple of lessons to learn a few little bits here and there and to help me pass the test - but forcing 12 hours of lessons or whatever it is is completed unfair and is going to prevent a lot of young people from learning to drive - not everyone car afford that much for lessons especially seeing as they can already drive fairly confidently...

it's something ye city folk will never understand - we've grown up in cars unlike you and ye'll never get that... it's second nature to us using cars in tight situations etc etc etc....

12 hours of lessons isn't going to do anything to make the road safer - do you honestly think 12 hours of lessons is going to make the lads that want to rally round the roads stop - no - i didn't think so... this will just make it harder to get a license is all - nothing else

But yet all of the 'high' number death crash's and accidents happen in the country side?

That is all.

inforfun

Coming from a country where you will only be able to drive a car after taking lessons at a driving school and passing a state exam (theory and practical) i read all this stuff with amazement.
Daddy keeping a logbook? If there were pictures with these proposals, they would belong in the "you laugh, you lose" thread here on Boards.

Provisional licenses are a joke too. L plates on cars? You just can not expect the guardai to stop every L-plated car with only the driver in it.

If "Ireland" would wise up and do what most countries do in Europe, that whole provisional crap should be binned.

You are 18? Ok, now you are old enough to take driving lessons. Your driving instructor will tell you when you are ready to take the exam, be it after 5 or 50 lessons.
Pass your exam? Here is your drivers license. Careful now please.

Of course these lessons will cost money but having a real drivers license means lower insurance, right? If that is the case, a real drivers license will earn itself back. And having learned properly how to drive might even save you from being folded around a tree.

Mackman

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

All they need to do is hand out 2 year driving bans for any motoring offence and you'll instantly see much a better standard of driving.

+1, i agree that something needs to be done. The proposed changes will probably do some good, but more drastic changes need to be made.

e.g.
-Only allow L platers (R platers) to have 1.0L or 1.1L cars. nothing bigger.
-0 blood alcohol level for people under 21. If they're caught, no licence for 3 years.
-Actually enforce some of these laws!

Cheeky_gal

I don't quite understand this.. does all this only apply to NEW learner drivers? As in I've been driving on a provisional for 3 years so how would this effect me?

Cheeky_gal

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

I don't quite understand this.. does all this only apply to NEW learner drivers? As in I've been driving on a provisional for 3 years so how would this effect me?

It should neither affect you nor effect you

Jaysoose

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

I don't quite understand this.. does all this only apply to NEW learner drivers? As in I've been driving on a provisional for 3 years so how would this effect me?

This is part of the problem how in gods name can mindsets be chanegd when its perfectly acceptable for people to drive for 3 years without having done the test?

On what planet is it deemed common sense for a person to fail the driving test and then get in the car and drive home.

The rsa needs to lift the model from the UK and implement it here, not come up with some hillbilly solution to keep a group of driving instructors happy.

This is a real 'irish solution'.

Noreen1

Whereas I agree that measures need to be implemented to ensure greater road safety, I don't think these proposals will have the desired effect.

As stated by other posters, 12, 20 or 50 lessons will not prevent people who have passed their driving test from driving recklessly. It's a typical Irish solution - penalise the sensible, competent person for the future crimes of the foolish.

If speed is the greatest cause of accidents - then introduce speed limiters on cars. Incorporate some type of record system in the car, that gardai can check at a future date, just like they check the number of hours a HGV has been on the road without a break (Tacograph?). There's the solution to the speed issue. The technology is available, since a certain Insurance company ran a similar scheme a couple of years ago.

This should have two desirable consequences. Fewer injuries/deaths on the roads, and a reduction in Insurance premiums for young drivers, who are presumed guilty of future offences before they are even allowed to drive.

People who live in rural areas need to drive. It is not a privilege. It is an absolute necessity to get to work, school, shops etc.
We do not have an adequate transport system. This is something people who live in urban areas often do not grasp. If you live in a rural area, and you want to work and contribute to society, then 9 times out of 10 - you have to drive to work.
Making it even more expensive for young people to start driving will just ensure that more of them will claim social welfare - or drive illegally, with little incentive to stop for a garda checkpoint, for example.


Secondly, drivers should not drive with any alcohol in their system.

Those are two possible solutions, which should prove effective in improving road safety, and reduce the cost of driving.
The cost of a speed limiter should balance out against the cost of driving lessons, so savings on insurance premiums would be of benefit to young drivers. Win/Win situation - and it's just basic common sense.

Noreen

galah

halleluja!

finally, the government is seeing some sense, and taking a look at what other countries have been doing for years.

while these measures don't go far enough, it's a start. I hope those compulsory lessons also include night driving, driving on a motorway, and driving on country roads (for those city slickers...).

would be nice if they could apply these rules retroactively to every driver in this country who passed their 'test' - or got it in the post...

jdooley28

Kidchameleon wrote: »

+1

You shouldn't get behind the wheel with so much as a tea spoon of beer...

How does that makes semse? How long should not aloud drive for after you have had a drop of beer? If I had a glass of beer with my dinner at 1.p.m should I be allowed drive at6 or 7 p.m? Of course!

starbelgrade

Mak_United wrote: »

But yet all of the 'high' number death crash's and accidents happen in the country side?

That is all.

Eh, no. They don't. The highest numbers of deaths last year were in the cities - Dublin, Cork, Limerick & Galway.

Dartz

I wonder I wonder, if it's not more complicated than 'careless young people'.

Has anybody noticed that road safety has also seemed to follow the general trend of more safe cars on the roads? Over the last ten years or so, the figure's dropped because cars have gotten a hell of a lot stronger.

Also consider who's most likely to be driving an older car, likely something cheap and small and insurable, and likely to crumple up like tinfoil (relatively) the moment it hits something. Also remember who's most likely to have a full load of passengers in that car, rather than just be pootling around by themselves.

munchkin_utd

The recommendations being implemented are listed in the document below.

The central point of the document is that learning to drive in future should be about becoming a good, safe driver, not simply acquiring a limited set of technical skills in an urban setting in order to pass a test.

Its ironic that we are seeing carnage on country roads, yet till now only your skill in driving in town was of concern to the powers that be!!

Thats all changing now and theres even mention of driving on the motorway being part of the cumpulsary lessons in the recommendation document.
(it would though require a simple change in the law that learners CAN drive on the motorway in the exceptional circumstance of being in an official driving lesson with an approved instructor)

(NOTE: rsa site is pretty slow at the moment whatever the matter is)
http://rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/GDL/Graduated%20Driving%20Licensing%20Recommendations%202009.pdf

more links and a press release
http://rsa.ie/Utility/News/2010/RSA-announce-nine-additional-measures-to-protect-learner-and-inexperienced-drivers/

stovelid

Jaysoose wrote: »

This is part of the problem how in gods name can mindsets be chanegd when its perfectly acceptable for people to drive for 3 years without having done the test?

Because we live in a country where any move to force people to demonstrate their ability to drive in order to get behind the wheel is viewed as a violation of people's human rights.

As if these people were forced at gunpoint to build their lives and jobs around driving without actually ever passing a driving test.

My wife passed her test outside Ireland and not only was the test more comprehensive, but if you failed the test, you were not allowed to drive. As should be.

pickarooney

This notion of copying the procedure in place in the majority of European countries is a real Irish solution!

R0ot

Figures that this comes out when me and the OH plan on learning to drive.

skepticalone

so, say i passed my theory test last week , if i get my skates on now and apply to do my test , will i be able to do so without the lessons ? p. s i do hold a full licence from u s a but its not recognised here , so i need to get an irish one, have 20 yrs driving experience behind me , hardly a candidate for the lessons ...lol

Cookie_Monster

pickarooney wrote: »

This notion of copying the procedure in place in the majority of European countries is a real Irish solution!

why? They work, ours doesn't

mickydoomsux

Great piece by Kevin Myers about the deaths of young drivers in todays Indo.

Fair play to him but i can see a huge backlash because we hate the truth in this country. Free speech unless you say something people don't agree is the order of the day in Ireland.

Let's all just wring our hands and talk in whispered tones about the 'poor craters' because we don't want to offend anyone.

mickydoomsux

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Great piece by Kevin Myers about the deaths of young drivers in todays Indo.

Fair play to him but i can see a huge backlash because we hate the truth in this country. Free speech unless you say something people don't agree is the order of the day in Ireland.

Let's all just wring our hands and talk in whispered tones about the 'poor craters' because we don't want to offend anyone.

He may have a point but WHY does he have to overuse "for" in every single article he writes? Did someone beat into him that he should never start a sentence with "because"?

Luxie

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You should see what learners must do in some other countries OP.

Yep. Round my way, it's minimum 20, with extra (not sure how many) on a fake snow surface.

Then to actually get the licence you need a list of paperwork as long as your arm.