learner drivers getting hung out to dry once again

Sitec

Having to do 12+ lessons is silly. If you're able to pass the test you are able to drive.


Another money spinner is all this is.

Cantona's Collars

Sitec wrote: »

Having to do 12+ lessons is silly. If you're able to pass the test you are able to drive.


Another money spinner is all this is.

The driving test in it's current form is not a true reflection of real world driving.Anyone who has sat a test will know that nobody drives like they're expected to do in a test.You can pass your test but still not be competent on the nations' roads.I took 3 lessons before I ever sat a test-the first was 2 years before and 2 lessons just before I sat the test to iron out the kinks. So passing a test isn't neccesarily a reflection on whether you're a good driver or not. (BTW-I breezed through the test)

kylith

I can't drive, but I'm studying my theory test book in anticipation of arranging a day for the theory exam. Initially I was pissed off at the extra expense of having to do 12 compulsory lessons before, but then I got to thinking about it: it's a 2 tonne block of metal that's fueled by fire and can travel in excess of 100mph. It's actually a good idea that someone won't be able to do a few hours with Uncle Jim before going for their test. Proper, accredited, training in the operation of dangerous machinery is a very good idea.

Sitec

Sitec wrote: »

Having to do 12+ lessons is silly. If you're able to pass the test you are able to drive.

Apart from the test not having to cover roundabouts (not strictly anyway) nor motorways? People haven't a clue how to drive on either

starbelgrade

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why? They work, ours doesn't

You just made that up - didn't you?

Ireland actually has the 2nd safest roads in Europe & we have a less strict learner driver process. In countries where similar schemes are in place, accident rates are higher.

30H!3

I think the driving test should cost €900, and you have to do 1000 lessons before you are allowed sit it, then you are limited to under 1 litre cars for the first 12 years driving, and if you get any penalty points within the first 6 years you lose your license for 20 years, and you aren't allowed carry any passengers, ever, in fact all seats but the drivers should be permanently removed or else a €7500 fine.

karlog

30H!3 wrote: »

I think the driving test should cost €900, and you have to do 1000 lessons before you are allowed sit it, then you are limited to under 1 litre cars for the first 12 years driving, and if you get any penalty points within the first 6 years you lose your license for 20 years, and you aren't allowed carry any passengers, ever, in fact all seats but the drivers should be permanently removed or else a €7500 fine.

That sounds a bit too lenient for my liking. MAKE IT STRICTER!!!

stovelid

If the driving test is a such a piece of piss for all the highly-skilled drivers who dispute its relevance, it should follow that they have no reason to avoid it and will all be doing (and acing) it as soon as possible.

mikerowsopht

most other EU countries you need to have 25 lessons by a driving pro.
here they are going to let your parents sign the logs if they take them out driving which will obvioulsy be abused and is a waste of time for that reason.

I personally would love to see all young beginner drivers driving around in smart cars limited to 30bhp and 50mph instead of seeing loud horribly done up cars being driven instead by dese yung uns, it would be hilarious.

However I would not be saying this unless I had a full icense which I do so HA HA

mconigol

Just teach people how to drive while they're in school...make it compulsory.

Regardless of what we may prefer, driving is our transport policy and with the way things are now it is likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. The majority of Irish people will and do need to know how to drive properly.

Cookie_Monster

starbelgrade wrote: »

You just made that up - didn't you?

Ireland actually has the 2nd safest roads in Europe & we have a less strict learner driver process. In countries where similar schemes are in place, accident rates are higher.

lower pop density and lower driver density is a big part of that. And anyway what does the test have to do with accident rates. Its about being legally passed to drive, it doesn't automatically make you a safer driver.

The system we have here is massively flawed, you can drive unaccompanied without a licence without fear of any punishment. Even if you are caught by the Gardai, they write a ticket and let you go on your way again. Test here covers very little, no night driving, no motorways, no skid control, no emergency stop etc.

Naikon

I would support the RSA move on the condition of some hardcore evidence to support the descisions being made. So far, the justification for these decisions seem to support the notion that "hey guys, we can scrape an extra x euro every year by doing this!" It's plainly obvious these measures probably won't reduce the number of deaths on the road. Revenue scheme tbh. Sadly, incidents like the 5 killed last week will become more commonplace I suspect.

johnmcdnl

The lessons are the problem - they only teach technical aspects of driving - nohting else

if speed kills then put the speedlimiters in every car in the country - no more speeding in ireland boo hoo boy racers...

anyone who illegally removes there speed limiter will loose the license for 6 months

this will stop not only young lads from speeding but everyonne

zero alcohol tolerance for everyone driving - this 20ml law is ridicoulus too for only learner drivers - I've seen young lads who can handle a pint a lot better than older pepople bt that's besides the point - why just young people - besides from where I'm from no young lad that I know drives if there drinkinga at all - just isn't worth it... why not just lower it for everyone..

why not put driving on a motorway into the test??? and if the candidate can drive on the motorway without lessons well then why should be pay to learn to use motorway....

why not just put the extra bits intp the test and if you NEED lessons then pay for them - but for a young Michael Schumacher who can drive without lessons they shouldn't be forced to pay for lessons...

the lessons won't slow the young lads down - so why pealise everyone....

speed limiters are the only thing that will slow drivers down...

kingtut

I don't see the problem being just young learner drivers!!

It is people speeding and not following common sense like not indicating, not knowing how to use a roundabout, tailgating, overtaking at bends, showing off and so on.

There will always be idiots on the road. What we need is police on the dangerous roads! NOT on the main roads where nothing ever happens! It is the back windy roads that most of the accidents that occur on.

In my experience it is taxi drivers and lorry drivers who are to blame when it comes to not having a clue how to drive properly.

The sooner the RSA / police / government target the RIGHT people on the RIGHT roads the better!

I'm sick of the "let's blame the learner driver" bull$hit!! (and I am not one of them by the way, I have had a full driver's license for 3 years).

/rant :mad::mad::mad:

Dempsey

I agree that learning to drive should be apart of the education system of this country.

The lessons are the problem - they only teach technical aspects of driving - nohting else

if speed kills then put the speedlimiters in every car in the country - no more speeding in ireland boo hoo boy racers...

anyone who illegally removes there speed limiter will loose the license for 6 months

this will stop not only young lads from speeding but everyonne

zero alcohol tolerance for everyone driving - this 20ml law is ridicoulus too for only learner drivers - I've seen young lads who can handle a pint a lot better than older pepople bt that's besides the point - why just young people - besides from where I'm from no young lad that I know drives if there drinkinga at all - just isn't worth it... why not just lower it for everyone..

why not put driving on a motorway into the test??? and if the candidate can drive on the motorway without lessons well then why should be pay to learn to use motorway....

why not just put the extra bits intp the test and if you NEED lessons then pay for them - but for a young Michael Schumacher who can drive without lessons they shouldn't be forced to pay for lessons...

the lessons won't slow the young lads down - so why pealise everyone....

speed limiters are the only thing that will slow drivers down...

Contradict yourself or what!! :pac:

Why should I have to fork out extra money for a speed limiter, like you said why penalise everyone for the actions of an minority?

Same goes for alcohol, why does everyone have to suffer. You want to introduce the possibility of someone getting done for any trace of alcohol in their system? In Ireland? Alot of people who arent suffering from alcohol related impairment could fail the test. That wouldnt be fair and targeting a group that isnt causing accidents. Yes, it should be the law for provisional & u18 drivers but not for adults, the current limit is fine.

Also, I think that night time driving, motorway driving, skid control & emergency stop should be integrated in the test, they are skills that can reduce accidents.

pickarooney

johnmcdnl wrote: »

why not put driving on a motorway into the test??? and if the candidate can drive on the motorway without lessons well then why should be pay to learn to use motorway....

Motorway driving certainly should be on the test, but it's kind of scary to think that people would drive on a motorway on some assumption that they would be able to, possibly because they drove a Massey Ferguson around the beet field when they were ten.

Young people in the country, who need to drive for work should not be allowed on the road after 8pm and at any time in a vehicle with a top speed of over 60kph.

Agricola

What they need to do is make the legal driving age 25. That would stop nearly all the road carnage problems over night. But since thats not really practical, making it extremely difficult for 17 and 18 year olds to get behind a wheel is the next best thing.
When I started driving in the late 90's, all I had to do was send off for a provisional license in the post, then hop in the car and off I went! No questions asked. We're only now starting to cop on to how ridiculous that situation was. Even with these new rules, it still wont be as difficult or expensive to get a driving license in Ireland as it is in some EU countries.

falan

pickarooney wrote: »

Young people in the country, who need to drive for work should not be allowed on the road after 8pm and at any time in a vehicle with a top speed of over 60kph.

But that wouldn't work. What about all the young people who work shifts? Would they have to give up work and get a day job?

jdooley28

You know with the log book thing? What do u do if your parents don't drive?

Fuhrer

Rather then making them take an arbitrary amount of lessons how about the test being broken into two parts or something similar.


I mean, you could get lucky and luck your way through one test but another test two or so weeks apart would show if you can consistently follow the rules and whatnot.

pickarooney

falan wrote: »

But that wouldn't work. What about all the young people who work shifts? Would they have to give up work and get a day job?

Shifts in what? There are no factories in the country.

falan

pickarooney wrote: »

Shifts in what? There are no factories in the country.

Well the two factories in my sh1thole of a town are still going strong....;)

RMD

Would mandatory lessons having failed the test not be a smarter idea?

I passed first time without lessons, already knew how to drive and got by fine. Making me pay 600€ for something I don't need is pretty unfair.

karlog

I hope i have my license before December so i can avoid all this sh*t.

Thoie

jdooley28 wrote: »

You know with the log book thing? What do u do if your parents don't drive?

It doesn't say it's to be signed by your parents, it's to be signed by whoever is accompanying you as your experienced driver during practise. It's already illegal to drive without an experienced driver - the log book just means that that person will sign a legal statement to show that you've been practising.

WIZE

Time to set up a driving school me thinks

phasers

Jaysus, I can barely afford tax and insurance! Now they want me to get 12 lessons?

I already got 5, do I have to somehow prove this?

karlog

phasers wrote: »

Jaysus, I can barely afford tax and insurance! Now they want me to get 12 lessons?

I already got 5, do I have to somehow prove this?

I'd say so but it would save you alot trouble to get your license before December if possible.

phasers

karlog wrote: »

I'd say so but it would save you alot trouble to get your license before December if possible.

I'll try believe me! Ugh, I hate being rushed, I had this all planned!

phasers

phasers wrote: »

Jaysus, I can barely afford tax and insurance! Now they want me to get 12 lessons?

I already got 5, do I have to somehow prove this?

New learner drivers will now have to take 12 hours of compulsory driving lessons and produce a signed log,

From 4 April 2011, new learner drivers will have to undergo 12 hours of compulsory lessons.

The new rules only apply to those who get their first license after these measures come into force.

You're fine

phasers

bluewolf wrote: »

You're fine

I love you

donkey balls

lads the compulsary lesons is f**k all compared to what a bus/truck driver has to do for the rest of their driving careers,where thay have to sit a one day course(bit like the FAS safe pass) every year.
what i would like to see is videos like this one that shows other road users how to interact with buses&trucks, also the amount of people that dont know how to join the motorway from slip roads is un real.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Education/Road-safety-tips/HGV-drivers-and-cyclists1/

Venom

If the RSA were serious about making the roads safer it would be 12 lessons needed to get insurance never mind the test itself. And this whole "R" sticker for a year or two should be back dated for a year or two as those who pass before a law is brought in are not better drivers than those who pass after the law is passed.

donkey balls

Venom wrote: »

If the RSA were serious about making the roads safer it would be 12 lessons needed to get insurance never mind the test itself. And this whole "R" sticker for a year or two should be back dated for a year or two as those who pass before a law is brought in are not better drivers than those who pass after the law is passed.

just say you pass your diving test for a car and go on to do either a bus/truck test and pass that should you still have an R sticker on your car.

gollem_1975

Morlar wrote: »

Well a lot of people especially growing up on farms will know how to drive a car without needing 16x lessons from a driving instructor. A lot more people are more comfortable learning from a partner or a parent so making lessons from driving schools/instructors compulsory to those people simply means additional un-needed cost. The cost of lessons has gone up a lot - someone recently told me (this could be way wrong) it was now €50 per lesson. I'd prefer them to overhaul the TEST system rather than making driving instructors compulsory.

The other parts about R plates for 2x years and increased penalty points I would agree with.

a lot of major accidents have happened in rural areas involving young drivers.

So they're are some people that are not learning to drive properly.

I was much more comfortable learning to drive from a professional than a family member. any times when I was out driving with family members when i was learning ended up in a row or shouting match ( and many have shared similar experiences with me )

12 hours of lessons is not excessive in my opinion ( I heard on the 7 o clock show in the UK that drivers on average take considerably more hours of lessons before they pass the test - if my memory serves me the number of hours was over 40 )

Its not €50 for a one hour lesson - its probably €50 for a 2 hour lesson.

Thats what I was paying anyway when I was taking lessons recently.

Great instructor too... I passed!

johnmurphy2010

In the very first post of this thread, spider pig mentioned that :

"The new rules only apply to those who get their first license after these measures come into force."

I have a full license for driving automatics only (which i got about 1.5 years ago). If I dont take my driving test (for a manual) until after april 2011, does this mean that the rules will still not apply to me because it wont be my first license? (since i already holf a full license - albeit for automatics)

JM

johnmcdnl

johnmurphy2010 wrote: »

In the very first post of this thread, spider pig mentioned that :

"The new rules only apply to those who get their first license after these measures come into force."

I have a full license for driving automatics only (which i got about 1.5 years ago). If I dont take my driving test (for a manual) until after april 2011, does this mean that the rules will still not apply to me because it wont be my first license? (since i already holf a full license - albeit for automatics)

JM

it'll only be for people getting new permits from scratch - your grand

Venom

johnmcdnl wrote: »

it'll only be for people getting new permits from scratch - your grand

And this is why our roads are in such a mess as it's one rule for some and a different rule for others :rolleyes:

GTE

To think they are trying to get drivers educated better before putting them on the roads?
I agree OP, what assholes.


Feck skae, come on now! The system should be much more strict and hard to get through then it is now. You got off so lightly! Im lucky that I have just missed all this but I wouldnt mind a proper advanced driving course.

Perspective prospective drivers! You are not all savage!

Penalty points good.
Compulsory lessons, in theory good.
A drivers log book a well intentioned flop.

Advanced driving courses integrated into the compulsory lessons better.
Severe penalty for offences would be better, across the board for all drivers,

I look at that motorway patrol program based in New Zealand and just think that the amount someone can get fined over for being an idiot on the roads is fantastic.

questionmark?

Out of interest, what is the average cost of a driving lesson in Dublin these days? I know down here its 40 per hour!

pickarooney

questionmark? wrote: »

Out of interest, what is the average cost of a driving lesson in Dublin these days? I know down here its 40 per hour!

You would have to presume that lessons will be sold in bundles of 12 at a reduced rate. Of course, that is assuming that there is a lot of competition from driving schools from an increasing customer base.

Cookie_Monster

phasers wrote: »

Jaysus, I can barely afford tax and insurance! Now they want me to get 12 lessons?

I already got 5, do I have to somehow prove this?

receipts

Cookie_Monster

johnmcdnl wrote: »

it'll only be for people getting new permits from scratch - your grand

It says licence, not permit

Saruman

Why is everyone who is against these proposals assuming that they are only there to prevent road deaths and so should not apply to women of that 17 to 24 because they are safer than men in that age group?

It is not all about safety people... It is about the fact that we have NO formal training to drive a car in this country unlike most of the developed world.

People who have been driving all their life still do not know how to use a roundabout or indicate correctly. They still think there is a fast lane and they can sit in it if they consider themselves a fast driver.

This is all about changing the way Irish people drive and we have to start at the beginning which means learner drivers. There is nothing we can do for everyone who already has a full license as it is not practical to make everyone take another test to make sure they actually know how to drive so learners are the only option. In years to come it will make a difference in our overall driving habits.

For now though the RSA should have more of those TV adverts telling people how to drive, how to use roundabouts etc.

questionmark?

pickarooney wrote: »

You would have to presume that lessons will be sold in bundles of 12 at a reduced rate. Of course, that is assuming that there is a lot of competition from driving schools from an increasing customer base.

Your trying to tell me that we will see some value in something that is mandatory. To be honest i can see the prices rising as demand outstrips supply. This is still the rip off republic. The reason i had asked the price of a lesson in Dublin is i figured it was probably around the 60€ mark.

At the moment where i'm from 40€ per hour is a joke. You pay somebody 40€ to sit in your car with your insurance, your fuel ect... but yet its the same price as using one of the instructors cars with their insurance and fuel! Figure that. I know they have expenses but they have the potential to be fully booked everyday with these new rules. Lets say potentially thats 40€ by 39 hours a week which is circa 80,000€ per annum. Jesus i think i need to change profession.

galah

one would hope that the government has thought that far, and will provide some regulation of the driver tuition industry in light of these changes.

Like a cap on costs, or maybe even a tax incentive or something...Then again, this is our government, god knows what they'll come up with...

Venom

galah wrote: »

one would hope that the government has thought that far, and will provide some regulation of the driver tuition industry in light of these changes.

Like a cap on costs, or maybe even a tax incentive or something...Then again, this is our government, god knows what they'll come up with...

Yeah like that's going to happen:rolleyes:

pickarooney

questionmark? wrote: »

Your trying to tell me that we will see some value in something that is mandatory. To be honest i can see the prices rising as demand outstrips supply. This is still the rip off republic. The reason i had asked the price of a lesson in Dublin is i figured it was probably around the 60€ mark.

At the moment where i'm from 40€ per hour is a joke. You pay somebody 40€ to sit in your car with your insurance, your fuel ect... but yet its the same price as using one of the instructors cars with their insurance and fuel! Figure that. I know they have expenses but they have the potential to be fully booked everyday with these new rules. Lets say potentially thats 40€ by 39 hours a week which is circa 80,000€ per annum. Jesus i think i need to change profession.

So when there are thousands of young learner drivers queuing up to get driving lessons will the taxi drivers still sit around pissing and moaning about there being no work or will they get the proper accreditation and pick up on an obvious growth market offering competitive rates for regular custom in a related field?

It seems like a no-brainer.

farna_boy

Just thought this might be of interest, its the regulations with respect to learner drivers in Switzerland. I have highlighted the important bits:

Learning to drive in Switzerland

You must be 18 years of age to learn how to drive in Switzerland. The process begins with a 10-hour first aid course in which you learn how to give assistance to traffic accident victims. Then, you must follow eight hours of obligatory theory (traffic-awareness course).

Once you begin to drive, you must be accompanied by a person over 24 years of age who has had his or her license for at least three years. You must also attach a sticker (a white L on a blue background) to the windshield of your car to show that you are a "learner" driver.

You are not required to take driving lessons with a professional instructor to obtain your license, although it is recommended since the instructors know exactly what the examiners expect... It's at your own risk. Bear in mind that it will cost you approximately 75 Swiss francs an hour. There are extremely well-organized guilds of driving school instructors, who are applying increasingly restrictive measures to limit access to their profession and maintain their rates. Moreover, constant pressure is placed on the government to raise driver training standards for young drivers, in the name of road safety and to the great benefit of driving school instructors. Some see in this a pathetic example of corporate racketing, based on the "public good", as a means to capture its own profitable market. So grin and bear it, but don't let them walk all over you.
The temporary license allocation fee, the practical and theoretical exams and the highway code manual cost approximately 250 Swiss francs (although this varies by canton).

A book listing the 600 possible questions on the theory exam can be purchased for 10 francs from your canton's Automobile Service.

The Swiss driving test includes a written exam (that can be taken in English or in other foreign languages) and a practical test.

The practical test can be taken only three times. If you fail it three times, you are required to consult a psychologist who will decide if you are mentally fit to drive and who can offer you a fourth and final attempt... But you would have to demonstrate a real inaptitude for driving to get to that point.

Love the last Point

Cuddlesworth

starbelgrade wrote: »

Reasons why this proposed legislations is a pile of c*ck;

1. The most dangerous drivers on the road, statistically, are male drivers aged 17-24. Women drivers in the same age bracket are statistically the safest drivers on the road out of all road users, yet they are being lumped into the same category as young men, making it very inequitable.

2. This legislation will apply to all learner drivers, so even someone in their 30s will be lumped in with the young male drivers.

3. Systems like this are in place across Europe, yet there is no evidence to suggest that they reduce accidents at all. In fact Ireland - which doesn't yet have the system - has the safest roads per capita in Europe after Norway (which has much better roads).

4. It will be extremely difficult to police.

5. It will cost parents of young people, or young people themselves, around an extra €500 to get a driving license, without any evidence at all to suggest that it will reduce road deaths or accidents.



The main problem on our roads are young male drivers - mainly due to the fact that they take more risks than everybody else. The only way to gurantee that they reduce their level of risk taking is to reduce their levels of testosterone, but as that's not going to happen, you have to look at alternative methods & not blanket schemes that will cost everybody more money & most likely will achieve nothing.

It's a typical Irish solution to a problem - instead of examining the problem carefully & coming up with an educated & informed solution, we are yet again bringing in legislation purely as a knee-jerk reaction & to be seen to be doing something.

Women drivers in the same bracket are the third worst group, with males 24-30 just slightly ahead of them. This is for speed related deaths as a contributory factor in England. This is data freely available from the UK transport website. This same body produced data in the early 2000's which linked females as having a much larger chance of crashing per mile and linked the female age group 17-20 as being the second worst next to males. No such data has been released since, re % of crash's per mile driven split between the sexes. John Hopkin's university produced a similar report in the US.

"Overall, men were involved in 5.1 crashes per million miles
driven compared to 5.7 crashes for women, despite the fact that on
average they drove 74 percent more miles per year than did women"

For anybody who is interested here is a comprehensive report from 2008. Feel free to find something similar from the RSA, I'll be around for the next few years.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/adobepdf/162469/221412/221549/227755/rrcgb2008.pdf

Edit: Pre-empting the cheaper insurance argument, yes you do get cheaper insurance. Because even with a higher accident risk you drive far less on average. So less accidents overall. If we have true equality between the sex's in terms of mileage driven, males would have far cheaper insurance.