photography shakeup

elven

It's been a long time since i posted regularly in photography, so it seems a bit strange that I should be posting this thread but I think there's hope for the place to be useful and entertaining to those looking for other than which camera to buy for €150, so I'm going to go ahead.

There are a couple of plain old facts that we have to live with in some way or another, such as:

• People will always come in looking for gear advice
• The majority of threads will be fairly high level beginner type stuff ("i took my first macros, how do they look?")
• Certain groups of users may have met in real life (omg, there's life outside the interwebz?!?!) and their banter online based on that real life interaction may be misinterpreted by others as something negative

I do however think that there's enough variety of people out there willing to talk about different stuff and take the forum beyond the level it's at just now. The people who are asking what aperture is today may be discussing alternative processing or conceptual art in six months time, but not if they don't realise there's anything beyond selective colourisation or pictures of wine glasses filled with coloured water - because when anyone talks about the different stuff, it gets written off as elitist. By all means it's good to get into a meaty discussion about why you may or may not like any given thing, but that's not what's happening. It's petty bitching and personal insults, and derailing of lots of threads for the sake of egos.

There *is* a real social element to the photography crowd, just look at people's photography last weekend, and how happy everyone that attended was with how it went. Look at how successful the charleville trips are. New people are coming along to these things and to photowalks and are included with absolutely no reservations, and that's one of the strengths of the photography forum.

The current mods do a good job and try to clean the place up best they can but to be honest i think it's gone on so long without a change that decisions are based on things other than what's best for the forum overall. I've modded before and certain users have wound me up and i know how easy it is to get jaded and lose objectivity. I think it's time for a new set of mods who maybe don't have the baggage of that experience, and who can bring some fresh life to the place.

Yes, as a poster the place is what you make of it. But there's an underlying foundation that has to exist in order to do that. I think this needs to be tackled at a higher level to allow a change to happen on the floor.

There, it's out there, and hopefully without a sense of bitchyness, and in the constructive manner it was intended. Maybe others have something to add...?

LoLth

I have to say that in my experience as Arts Category mod and now admin I've found the photography mods to be a quite effective team. i've rarely had to question a decision made by them thats been reported by a user (ie: after looking into it both as cmod and admin, I've almost always had to come to the same conclusion) and on the ocasions when I have asked them to reconsider their ruling, I've never had any trouble getting them to see that there is always an alternative viewpoint and solution.

thats not to say I'm blinkered in any way or that I am blinded by any solar emination from posteriors in any way. I'm more than willing to look into any complaints a user may have about moderation in any forum and I am sure the Arts Category mods also understand and accept the need for impartiality.

I do understand your point about mods becoming entrenched and certainly it is a danger and has been flagged as something to watch out for (same users getting punished for past transgressions etc). I cant say that I would agree 100% with shifting one set of mods out and bringing in a whole new set for three reasons:

1. its not very fair to the mod who went from a user that participated in a useful way to mod who helped grow the forum about a topic he or she cares for just to say, right, time up! out ye go without any prior warning and possibly while the mod still has good ideas about how to progress the forum even further

2. its not very fair to the users who have to adjust to a whole new mentality in their moderating team and re-learn what is and is not acceptable even if its not explicitly stated in the charter (not everything can be accoutned for in a charter and mods have to make judgement calls)

3. Its not very fair to the new mods who end up having to learn the ropes without guidance.

4. some forums may not have enough users of "mod material" (unlikely i know, but possible) to keep a full mod team running, in such cases we may have to bring external mods in who probably would not have the same level of interest in the forum and become janitors instead of community moderators. Simiarly, from a user point of view, from experience, an outside mod appointed is seen as an outsider by the users and less likely to earn their respect or understand the forum nuances.

If you have any suggestion on improving the forum, you dont have to be a moderator to make them. I'm sure the photography mods (or mods of any forum) wouldnt take offense at a suggestion or two, as long as you dotn take offense at a well reasoned rejection of your idea or if the idea doesnt get implemented immediately. In fact, one of the reasons I suggested my replacement mods when I stopped modding Arts category forums, was the fact that they were users that not only abided bythe rules the majority of the time and were helpful and polite to newcomers but also that they were users that showed a definite interest in the future of the forum and the growth of the community.

dave66

elven wrote: »

It's petty bitching and personal insults, and derailing of lots of threads for the sake of egos.

One of the reasons I joined in on the photo forum (I'm a fairly new member) was that it did seem to be a welcoming place, but in the past month the level of nasty posts and derailing of threads has gotten to the point where I stopped visiting.

elven wrote: »

There *is* a real social element to the photography crowd, just look at people's photography last weekend, and how happy everyone that attended was with how it went. Look at how successful the charleville trips are. New people are coming along to these things and to photowalks and are included with absolutely no reservations, and that's one of the strengths of the photography forum.

As somebody is a recent member of the photography forum, I'd like to completely and without any reservation agree with what you have said about the social element. Not only am I new to the photo forum but I had never exhibited my photographs before. The help, support and advice I go in advance of PP2010 was simply superb and on the two days of the exhibition I was made to feel very welcome and included.

elven wrote: »

The current mods do a good job and try to clean the place up best they can but to be honest i think it's gone on so long without a change that decisions are based on things other than what's best for the forum overall. I've modded before and certain users have wound me up and i know how easy it is to get jaded and lose objectivity. I think it's time for a new set of mods who maybe don't have the baggage of that experience, and who can bring some fresh life to the place.

Yes, as a poster the place is what you make of it. But there's an underlying foundation that has to exist in order to do that. I think this needs to be tackled at a higher level to allow a change to happen on the floor.

I agree that the current mods do a good job, moderation on any forum is often a thankless job and often people hardly notice the amount of effort that goes into doing it. That said, if the structure of a forum is not revised on a regular basis it can become stagnant and experienced people move on, which is a loss to the forum as a whole. I certainly don't see the suggestion of a renewing of the mod team as being a slight on the current team, more a good idea on how to bring new blood/ideas and fresh eyes to something. This could lead to the forum growing and experienced people staying. If the idea of introducing new mods is something that happens, I would suggest that it's done over a bit of time with the current mods acting to help new mods build on what has been established, their experience is every bit as valueable as the people who post there.

elven wrote: »

There, it's out there, and hopefully without a sense of bitchyness, and in the constructive manner it was intended. Maybe others have something to add...?

I don't see any bitchyness, instead I see somebody trying to improve something they clearly care about. Good post and a nice way of opening discussion, I hope it is seen as such.

gandalf

I haven't been on the photo forum in ages because I am going through a dry spell due to real life at the moment.

Elven one thing I will say is this, Why is it up to the mods to provide direction for the forum? The users should also have a say and by contributing they actually can push the forum one way or another.

What might be a good suggestion is the mods open up a stickied thread for a month called "Forum Direction Suggestions" where users can post their ideas for improvement of the forum. Depending what comes out in the mix then act on it accordingly.

Calina

elven,

I just wanted to post to let you know that I have seen this post but have been slightly diverted by a lot of other things over the past couple of days.

I will respond in detail to it later as I think it deserves a little more time rather than a hurried response during 5 minutes at lunch hour if that's okay.

I hope this is okay.

Calina

Okay.

I wish to make it clear that the following is being posted in my personal capacity - as in, it should not be seen, necessarily, as the opinion of the other 2 photography mods or the Arts CMods. It is purely my opinion.

Firstly, I'd like to note that by and large, a forum is made up mostly of its posters, and, for the most part, less of its moderators. Typically, I see the forum as being directed by what its posters choose to post and that ebbs and flows over time. You note that there is perhaps more room for more conceptual discussion and in principle I would agree with this. But I cannot direct this and I think it is perhaps not so fair to assume the moderators should push the forum in one direction or another.

I recognise that there has been some issues with police moderation within the forum of late. While I do not in general discuss any individual case in public, it is fair to say that some matters have included discussions between the mod team, the CMod team and recently also, we have involved some Admin assistance. Most of this is not visible to the general users who, regrettably, wind up facing the fallout particularly if it happens at a time when - for whatever reason - none of the mods are immediately available to clean things out. It is hard, also to do some cleaning out when you are immediately faced down with accusations of being a censor, either by deleting some posts, or by banning some furious user. In short, while there is a balance to be found, speaking personally, no matter what balance you find, someone will complain about it.

In terms of the future of the photography forum, I have been having some thoughts. They are loose thoughts, however, and again, are my own opinion, as in they have not formed any discussion with, for example, the other mods.

• I would like to merge some of the subfora into the main forum. I am not hugely in favour of the structure of forum and subfora in place at the moment.
• I would like to see the Photography Charter re-written to be more aspirational, more like a constitution than a list of does and don'ts.
• I would like to see an extra mod added, not necessarily as a police/mod but as someone with more of an educational interest and who doesn't necessarily have a fixed specialisation. I don't wish to see the forum turn into a leet forum of sports specialists, landscape artists. We have some great photographers and really, you can learn a lot by just looking at their photographs. Unfortunately, the value of this is not always recognised.

I don't wish this post to be so long that it's into tl;dr territory. There are certain things I don't really like that I have inherited. The services thread is one. The separate events subforum is another. I understand, to some extent, how they came to being, but time moves on.

Ultimately, I think there's an argument for putting a sticky in place in the forum to ask for ideas in. However, the one thing that concerns me is sometimes ideas which come out of this involve more work for the moderation team.

What it boils down to is tihs: I get the feeling that people are unwilling to post things that are slightly unusual, and, as a result, get some flack. I took some myself for a photographs only thread (sports as I recall). As I recall, that request was thrown back at me as abusing my mod position.

I'm not sure any more what people want of mods. I've seen some requests that mods give more direction to the forum. I don't know what to understand by this. The forum doesn't belong to me; it's for the users to push the direction rather than me to direct it. Ultimately, if you put that sort of onus on a mod team, you'll find the forum going in the direction that interests them. I don't really agree with that either.

I guess the feeling I'm getting is that some people find the forum an unwelcoming place to start posting. This accusation has turned up before. I remember a long and contentious thread on the subject about 4 years ago. I'm not sure how to change this right now because to some extent, it depends on other users also.

So ultimately, I would not be lying if I claimed that on occasion I am largely disillusioned because I seem to have to spin a lot of plates as photography mod; I have to police it so it doesn't get bitchy; I have to direct it so that it's more interesting; I have to deal with the behind the scenes hassle that comes with the policing, and all told...sometimes that's disheartening.

What I can do as a starting point, is start a "What is the photography forum for you" thread that might allow people to give us some more concrete ideas of where they want the forum to go and perhaps we can build from there.