Meditation, breathwork and other "spiritual" practices in a non spiritual context

Herbal Deity

Just wondering if anyone practices or is interested in any practices which have heavy "spiritual" connotations, but which do not necessarily require supernatural beliefs.

Things like meditation, breathing techniques, focusing on feelings in your body etc. Not with the intent of connecting with a deity or "spiritual healing", but rather to experience naturally altered states of consciousness, to relieve stress etc.

I find it quite difficult to find any resources on things like this without there involving a load of woo woo, which really puts me off. I have tried several things myself, such as emptying my mind of thoughts, focusing on how my body feels, experimenting with different breathing patterns and seeing how they make me feel etc.

I think that such practices are very positive, interesting and good for my mental health, but I find it irritating that they are so closely linked with bizarre spiritual beliefs, and that there aren't much secular resources available to do with them.

I haven't read much of Sam Harris, but from what I understand, he would be a promoter of rational mysticism and things like meditation.

Would anyone else feel the way I do, or would you regard such practices as a load of rubbish no sane person would engage in, supernatural beliefs or not? :pac:

panda100

Oh I totally agree. I think meditation is excellent for the brain and overall mental health. Your brain does so much to support you and never gets a rest so I always try and find 30mins every week to just try and switch off and focus on my breathing.

I went to one or two meditation classes in Dublin but they kept foccusing on my soul and my 'inner connection to a higher being'. I went to another class and the emphasis was on my inner chakras or some sort of nonsense. It really put me off meditation classes tbh.

strobe

I feel the same HD yeah. For me it begun with martial arts, I started doing Shotokan karate when I was 6 and begun training in other forms aswell as that up unitl I was about 17. There are a lot of breathing exercises, and focus on achieving certain states of mind, to remain calm and detached while in a fight etc involved. I continued on with the meditation techniques throughout my life, aswell as the martial arts but in a less commited way. Still do them. For me I always associated them with martial arts so I never had the problem of there being "spiritual" conotations to put me off. They were purely practicle/usefull and enjoyable in thier own right.

I also use some psychoactive drugs for what some people would call "spiritual" purposes. But like the meditation I came to them from a position of them having no "spiritual" association, in the way someone that hangs crystals over thier bed would use the word. So sort of developed my own understanding of the experiences and thier uses free from that kind of thing.

In both cases it just comes down to learning and trying to perfect the understanding and control of the mind and body and who you are. There is no need for the magical slant to it or a need to feel odd for doing something some people choose to wrongly attach a magical meaning too.

I don't know of any websites that deal with this sort of stuff in a "secular" (secular is the wrong word to use there but I know what you mean) way as you said. But I had a book written about it which was very good. I haven't seen it in years and for the life of me can't remember the name but I'm sure I still have it in a box somewhere, I'll try to dig it out for you when I get a chance. Maybe google around for "meditation in martial arts" or similar phrases and you should have better look coming up with information without all the chakra and oogly boogly talk.

Herbal Deity

panda100 wrote: »

Oh I totally agree. I think meditation is excellent for the brain and overall mental health. Your brain does so much to support you and never gets a rest so I always try and find 30mins every week to just try and switch off and focus on my breathing.

I went to one or two meditation classes in Dublin but they kept foccusing on my soul and my 'inner connection to a higher being'. I went to another class and the emphasis was on my inner chakras or some sort of nonsense. It really put me off meditation classes tbh.

Yeah. I'd be vaguely interested in attending a meditation or similar class myself, but hearing stuff like this would dissuade me.

strobe wrote: »

I also use some psychoactive drugs for what some people would call "spiritual" purposes.

Yeah, I would do this too. The human mind can really be taken to some pretty awesome, bizarre and out there places, all within a perfectly natural framework.

strobe wrote: »

In both cases it just comes down to learning and trying to perfect the understanding and control of the mind and body and who you are. There is no need for the magical slant to it or a need to feel odd for doing something some people choose to wrongly attach a magical meaning too.

Yeah, exactly.

Would you think that atheists would be less likely to look into stuff like this because of all the supernatural connotations? I would think so probably, it's a shame really.

joebucks

Mindfulness practice is used increasingly by mental health professionals in helping people deal with stress and related problems. It is based on Eastern meditation but doesnt have such an emphasis on spirituality.

Tony Bates who writes in the health section of the Irish Times is a good source of information on such topics.

There are many good videos on youtube. Search Jon Kabat-Zinn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(psychology)

roosh

as Joebucks mentions above, check out Jon Kabat-Zinn and MBSR - Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. I think that is relatively westernised, and so less couched in eastern spiritual terms.

"wherever you go, there you are" by Jon Kabatt-Zinn is supposed to be pretty good. I haven't read it yet, myself but it is on my "list".

"Meditations for a New Earth" by Kim Eng and Eckhart Tolle, has a number of practices, that are simply guided meditations, and don't involve any spiritual concepts - the introduction might have some, but the practices don't.


I would say, try not to get too bogged down in the terminology, because most of it doesn't really matter.

King Felix

A good how-to manual is this one by Barry Long.

I attended a Zen dojo in Dublin for a few months, last time I lived there, and nobody spoke to me about Buddhism the whole time I was there, it was just the meditation. There was some Japanese chanting at the end but I used to skip out before it.

I suppose, most meditation classes will have some sort of spiritual bent but you can take it or leave it.

I liked attending the dojo because I'd meditate for far longer and with less distraction than I would have on my own.

padma

I understand your post OP, and while there are many benefits to meditation, increased focus, concentration, de-stressing, better health, physically and mentally,more peaceful and calm in daily life, and all the others scientifically proven.

You are IMO missing out on why meditation is there in the first place. It is to connect with your higher self, your higher consciousness, as that is where True peace and happiness etc is found. Your True Self, your Higher consciousness having a connection with the spiritual. As when connecting with your own Spirit you will develop slowly a connection to the Divine. But it does depend on what you are looking for out of it.

There are obviously different reasons why people meditate. Each to be respected in their own right. Even though you may spend years practising a technique and have the ability to stop the mind from continous thinking and develop the senses in being attuned to a higher place/state of mind etc, To go beyond this in to the adventure of meditation there will be a time that things and your perception of things will change.

At least this is from my point of view, A friend of mine who is an atheist I recently had the joy of doing some guided meditation with him. He felt all the benefits yet, he recognised that there was something more at play. This left him wondering about his perception of things before he started meditating and now his perception after meditating. They changed, and in a big way. It wasn't because of him being told a story, it was because of his experience. Experience taught him something which no story could give him.

So in essence what I'd like to share to all people who use this forum is give it a try. And btw I'm no expert in having a need to prove to anyone here an existence which is outside the physical dimension As my firm understanding is a story is a tale, that's al,l an experience is different, it's personal even hearing someone tell you of an experience is pointless.

Herbal Deity

padma wrote: »

You are IMO missing out on why meditation is there in the first place. It is to connect with your higher self, your higher consciousness, as that is where True peace and happiness etc is found. Your True Self, your Higher consciousness having a connection with the spiritual. As when connecting with your own Spirit you will develop slowly a connection to the Divine. But it does depend on what you are looking for out of it.

No, see, I'm actually really interested in the ecstatic, altered states that meditation and the likes seem to be able to induce, much more so than mere health/de-stressing benefits.

The thing is, you interpret these feelings as having something to do with "spirits" or "a connection to the divine", in reality you have no way of knowing that "spirits" or w/e have anything to do with what you're experiencing.

Now I respect your right to believe what you want to, but the point of this thread is that these powerful feelings attained through the likes of meditation are more often than not interpreted as, and thus promoted as, being supernatural, IMO as a result of the main practitioners of this kind of thing doing so for "spiritual" reasons.

My personal view is that the human mind is extremely susceptible to manipulation through a variety of practices, from drugs, to prayer, to ritual, to listening to music, to meditation, to deep breathing etc. and while I generally believe that powerful experiences that people report are true, I don't think any of it is supernatural.

So while I appreciate the sentiment, your post is not really what I was looking for with this thread.

padma

Herbal Deity wrote: »

No, see, I'm actually really interested in the ecstatic, altered states that meditation and the likes seem to be able to induce, much more so than mere health/de-stressing benefits.

The thing is, you interpret these feelings as having something to do with "spirits" or "a connection to the divine", in reality you have no way of knowing that "spirits" or w/e have anything to do with what you're experiencing.

Now I respect your right to believe what you want to, but the point of this thread is that these powerful feelings attained through the likes of meditation are more often than not interpreted as, and thus promoted as, being supernatural, IMO as a result of the main practitioners of this kind of thing doing so for "spiritual" reasons.

My personal view is that the human mind is extremely susceptible to manipulation through a variety of practices, from drugs, to prayer, to ritual, to listening to music, to meditation, to deep breathing etc. and while I generally believe that powerful experiences that people report are true, I don't think any of it is supernatural.

So while I appreciate the sentiment, your post is not really what I was looking for with this thread.

As I said previously I'm not here to prove anything of a nature which you or others may see as wishy washy etc, Yet what I am saying is meditation has been used for the esoteric and spiritual connections induced by it and are the main goal. Be it Celtic, Hindu or whatever. There is a goal. It has been practised in this way for over 3000 years.

While I do recognise in the past quarter a century or whatever meditation is becoming more mainstream as 1, there is a need for meditation as all the health benefits are needed for today's society. And 2 with the scientific evidence of meditation backing up the health benefits more and more people are drawn to it. Yet the motivating factor for some is to become more calm, have 30 mins a day to relax etc as it is shown this helps to calm the mind and Heart.

Nothing is wrong with either, and the point of my post is to illustrate to others the main goal of meditation which in my humble opinion and the millions other out there is to reach Yoga, or in another sense connect with God etc, I am aware of the D.I.Y stuff that is currently out there, as some of it once you delve deeper in it you realise there is a spiritual aspect to meditation.

To some meditation is prayer, to others it is sitting in a lotus position and breathing in order to connect with something, be it your inner self or whatever. To others it is controlling your energy or to others it is controlling prana, the list goes on and on. To others it may be to alter your mind as you feel it is.

Herbal Deity

While I respect your input, I'm well aware of what meditation has been traditionally used for. I'm not particularly concerned about the last 3000 years, I like to live in the present

I would like to reach the "places" that spiritual people would interpret as a connection with God or whatever, but to me that would just be a profound, yet completely natural feeling.

I'd prefer that this thread didn't turn into a debate on the existence of the supernatural and the extent to with it can be connected with via meditation. As far as I'm concerned, there is no supernatural, and that's the angle I'd like this thread to be based on. (though I don't mind any believers giving their thoughts just as long as it's not confrontational or an attempt to convince me/others of the existence of the supernatural)

padma

Herbal Deity wrote: »

While I respect your input, I'm well aware of what meditation has been traditionally used for. I'm not particularly concerned about the last 3000 years, I like to live in the present

I would like to reach the "places" that spiritual people would interpret as a connection with God or whatever, but to me that would just be a profound, yet completely natural feeling.

I'd prefer that this thread didn't turn into a debate on the existence of the supernatural and the extent to with it can be connected with via meditation. As far as I'm concerned, there is no supernatural, and that's the angle I'd like this thread to be based on. (though I don't mind any believers giving their thoughts just as long as it's not confrontational or an attempt to convince me/others of the existence of the supernatural)

I am sorry if you felt my posts were confrontational, that was not my intention. Did I in any way suggest or even try to convince you or anyone in this forum of the existence of the "supernatural", if you feel I did I'm sorry. Yet you have pointed out in your original posts how a lot of meditation had bizzare spiritual beliefs indoctrinated in them. I understand from an atheist point of view why they would participate in meditation yet would stay well clear of anything that they did not or have no interest in, being it a spiritual practice etc. My intention was to shed some more light on the roots and the main goals of meditation.

mr fog light

Herbal Deity wrote: »

No, see, I'm actually really interested in the ecstatic, altered states that meditation and the likes seem to be able to induce, much more so than mere health/de-stressing benefits.

The thing is, you interpret these feelings as having something to do with "spirits" or "a connection to the divine", in reality you have no way of knowing that "spirits" or w/e have anything to do with what you're experiencing.

Now I respect your right to believe what you want to, but the point of this thread is that these powerful feelings attained through the likes of meditation are more often than not interpreted as, and thus promoted as, being supernatural, IMO as a result of the main practitioners of this kind of thing doing so for "spiritual" reasons.

My personal view is that the human mind is extremely susceptible to manipulation through a variety of practices, from drugs, to prayer, to ritual, to listening to music, to meditation, to deep breathing etc. and while I generally believe that powerful experiences that people report are true, I don't think any of it is supernatural.

So while I appreciate the sentiment, your post is not really what I was looking for with this thread.

what your trying to do which is, practice meditation to experience altered states and at the same time have no spiritual side to your life cannot be done.
When you take drugs etc no matter how strong the feeling or experience is it has to do with your mind and when the effects of the drug die off you go back to the person you were before and the experience can be described to others ie. positive(from the limited perspective of the mind) negatiive or trippy this is because it has to do with your mind.
When you meditate and are able to go beyond the mind and to whats know as no-mind and you will experience a truth that spiritual teachers and mystics point to. This truth isin't so easily described and some will believe you are talking woo woo.
In a way you will not just find or experience something supernatural you will realise that everything is supernatural.

padma

That is well put.

strobe

mr fog light wrote: »

what your trying to do which is, practice meditation to experience altered states and at the same time have no spiritual side to your life cannot be done.
When you take drugs etc no matter how strong the feeling or experience is it has to do with your mind and when the effects of the drug die off you go back to the person you were before and the experience can be described to others ie. positive(from the limited perspective of the mind) negatiive or trippy this is because it has to do with your mind.
When you meditate and are able to go beyond the mind and to whats know as no-mind and you will experience a truth that spiritual teachers and mystics point to. This truth isin't so easily described and some will believe you are talking woo woo.
In a way you will not just find or experience something supernatural you will realise that everything is supernatural.

I disagree. On all points really. Experiences with drugs can absolutely have an effect after the drugs have worn off. It's the experience that counts. The stuff you say about no-mind and mystics is just what you choose to take from it. I take something different entirely from it. I still think nothing is supernatural. Saying "everything is supernatural" doesn't even make sense. I still believe that meditation is still entirely about the brain, the mind, and nothing beyond that.

Like Padma, you seem to be unable to view these things from any perspective but your own.

Mother Duck

Hi OP,

You might be interested in Vipassana, which is the style of meditation that has the 'Sam Harris seal of approval' . Have a search yourself online, there are various tecnhniques of Vipassana which will inspire their own debates.

I get what you are saying about having a 'secularized' approach...however, much of what you're looking for is saturated in the kind of lingo that you're trying to steer clear of. It may be easier to simply accept that this language is going to be used and learn to filter or adapt it yourself.

Look at it like any kind of study...if you're studying Literature you may have to immerse yourself in antiquated language and concepts, but you don't have to accept or adopt these.

With regards to other suggestions - anything based on 'mindfulness' tends to be relatively westernized...you will still encounter non-logical terminology, but my advice is to just pick up a book and start reading, or book a class and start sitting...and use your own grey matter to pick out what works and what doesn't work for you.



All the best,

MD

Herbal Deity

padma wrote: »

I am sorry if you felt my posts were confrontational, that was not my intention. Did I in any way suggest or even try to convince you or anyone in this forum of the existence of the "supernatural"

No, you weren't confrontational and didn't try to convince anyone of anything. I wasn't referring to you with that paragraph, I just don't want the thread to become a debate. You're a believer, you gave your thoughts, and that's fine.

Mother Duck wrote: »

I get what you are saying about having a 'secularized' approach...however, much of what you're looking for is saturated in the kind of lingo that you're trying to steer clear of. It may be easier to simply accept that this language is going to be used and learn to filter or adapt it yourself.

Look at it like any kind of study...if you're studying Literature you may have to immerse yourself in antiquated language and concepts, but you don't have to accept or adopt these.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I'll almost certainly have to take this approach. I just get such a mental block when irrational language is used in anything. But your comparison with Literature study is very apt.

Anyway, looks like I have a good bit of reading to do!

nozzferrahhtoo

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I haven't read much of Sam Harris, but from what I understand, he would be a promoter of rational mysticism and things like meditation.

Yeah indeed he is. You would do well to watch This Video here. Most of it is with regards his impression of the word “Atheist” but at the end of his talk before the Q&A section he spends, if memory recalls, about 10 or 15 minutes clarifying his impressions of spirituality and he does it well.

Essentially what he says is that there is a wealth of data there about spiritualists and mediators and more having profoundly transformative experiences. They do this around the world against the back drop of vastly different cultures.

He goes on to say that much of what could be useful here is lost by the fact that the “only game in town” available to these people to discuss these experiences tends to be religious.

Worse many of the people who have such experiences will interpret them within the context of the religious traditions they were brought up in. A person going into a cave for 6 months who has vastly transformative experiences of self can, as an accident of geography, assume those experiences either prove Jesus is the son of god, or that an illiterate man of dubious sexual preferences really did write an entire Holy Text.

Yet, as he puts it, nothing in those experiences requires us to pre-suppose anything of the sort on insufficient evidence in order to provide a framework for their discussion and that in fact more discourse and research into what exactly is going on in these experiences is something we owe it to ourselves as a species to engage in.

roosh

What Mother Duck said.


It must be remembered that meditation has been synonymous with eastern spirituality for over 5000yrs, and is only [relatively] recently being adopted into western culture, so the terminology used is going to be vastly different from our own language.

Couple this with the fact, that spirituality is concerned primarily with an area that is, as of yet, not fully understood by western scientific enquiry - the mind/consciousness. Indeed, it is only recently that any real scientific research is being carried out into the practice of meditation.

Much of the terminology used, like chakra's, and all the other unfamiliar words are firstly in a foreign langauge, and secondly are conceptualisations of the experiences of highly realised meditation practitioners, who had/have spent their entire lives practicing meditation, as well as being passed on through the generations of spiritual practitioners.


If you can think of it in terms of something like, a non-english speaking, non-mathematician, hearing a term like diffeomorphism symmetry for the first time. They would probably look at you like you had two heads. But the more they learned about mathematics, and General Relativity (is that right?), the better they would understand the term, and what it refers to.


I was recently listening to "mindfulness for beginners" by Jon Kabat-Zinn, and the "theory" part of the audio tracks was pretty free of jargon. I'm pretty sure you could download that handy enough,.

roosh

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Yeah indeed he is. You would do well to watch This Video here. Most of it is with regards his impression of the word “Atheist” but at the end of his talk before the Q&A section he spends, if memory recalls, about 10 or 15 minutes clarifying his impressions of spirituality and he does it well.

Excellent talk, well worth the watch. He spends around15mins on spirituality (and mystics, etc.), but addresses it again twice in the Q&A section, once in response to Dennet.

nozzferrahhtoo

mangaroosh wrote: »

once in response to Dennet.

Hehehe Id forgotten that bit. Yeah it is quite funny how he cringes when Dennett stands up to question him. As far as memory serves he says something like “I best take my lickings publicly”. He clearly has a lot of respect for Dennett.

roosh

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Hehehe Id forgotten that bit. Yeah it is quite funny how he cringes when Dennett stands up to question him. As far as memory serves he says something like “I best take my lickings publicly”. He clearly has a lot of respect for Dennett.

your memory serves you well sir!