Rant about Philip Deignan on irishcycling.com

Slideshowbob

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_5168.shtml

How does this chap know pd overtrained? Why does he assume pd doesn't know how to look after himself

How quick people are to condemn riders. Less than a year ago pd brought grand tour stage glory to ireland. When was last tome Ireland had two riders in the same grand tour.

Come on Philip. F the begrudgers

Dura Ace

Slideshowbob wrote: »

When was last tome Ireland had two riders in the same grand tour.

It was last year's Vuelta with Deignan and Martin.

Slideshowbob

Oh ya forgot that

Lumen

It is a bizarrely proprietorial e-mail.

RobFowl

It was a bizarre and poorly informed email rant all right.
I'm surprised they published it TBH.
Nice to see the Irish tradition of begrudgery is alive and well.......

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

It is a bizarrely proprietorial e-mail.

"If I shout loud enough perhaps Philip will stop getting sick and injured".

Slideshowbob wrote: »

How does this chap know pd overtrained?

Deignan said so himself a while back. That does not mean I agree with the letter writer.

niceonetom

It's not really anti PD though is it? He clearly wants Philip to do well, he's just frustrated that he has done better so far due to a series of illnesses. There's clearly no ill-will in it.

He'd do well to ask himself if he's as frustrated as Deignan is himself, or if he knows more than the doctors and trainers that Deignan has consulted. That'd be a 'No' on both, and I guess that might inspire him to keep his comments to himself.

It's not begrudery either - that's when someone does well and we wish he hadn't - if anything this is the polar opposite; it's a really poorly formed and crass form of support, I guess, though he really should keep his frustrations for the pub, not the press.

ednwireland

dont really think its helpful i'm sure hes doing what he can

2 seasons ruined by glandular fever thats gonna take some coming back from (and pro teams arent places for patience really)

from roches diary

Just before the Vuelta, Philip and his team-mates on the Cervelo Test Team, were told that the squad would no longer exist next year and he would be out of a job. Even though he has one year left with Cervelo, Philip's contract is not looking like it will be honoured and he has to go looking for a new team for 2011. To make it even harder for him, he was laid low with a virus for most of this season and hasn't had many results.

Revolution909

niceonetom wrote: »

It's not really anti PD though is it? He clearly wants Philip to do well, he's just frustrated that he has done better so far due to a series of illnesses. There's clearly no ill-will in it.

He'd do well to ask himself if he's as frustrated as Deignan is himself, or if he knows more than the doctors and trainers that Deignan has consulted. That'd be a 'No' on both, and I guess that might inspire him to keep his comments to himself.

It's not begrudery either - that's when someone does well and we wish he hadn't - if anything this is the polar opposite; it's a really poorly formed and crass form of support, I guess, though he really should keep his frustrations for the pub, not the press.

Well I was the one who wrote the letter, if you would like to debate any points with me I would be more than happy to.
First of all I think it is clear from my letter that I want Philip Deignan to do well. As is stated throughout the letter I think Philip is a highly capable rider, I have pointed out his numerous achievements thus far and have pointed out that to compete in grand tours with little racing is testament to his ability as a cyclist.
I merely took the information I had and formed an opinion. It was never an attack. It was a comment. An attack would have been to ignore Philip Deignan's considerable talent, his past achievements at all levels of cycling and just slur him.
In other cycling cultures, sports etc What happens to a competitor when he underperforms? He comes in for criticism. Now what is a big consequence of overtraining? Illness and health issues. Philip Deignan admitted himself that he had overtrained last winter and it was causing him problems. So if you guys are right someone who makes a mistake that has consequences should be able to disown those consequences and say they were not his fault. That is not logical. Thus when you argue(or so it seems) that he was ill so couldn't perform you make it out that I am expecting the impossible. I do not expect a man at half capacity to win races. However I believe that an observation that overtraining was his fault and that he shouldnt make that mistake as a professional is justified. I also believe it is fair to put two and two together and say that illness that wrecks a season stems from that mistake.

This whole knocking successful people off their perch thing is not me. I see how my comments could be construed as such but I do not believe in it. I take pride in any of our representatives. However I do not believe that second best is good enough. Especially for a guy that can be at the top. This is not a bolt out of the blue attack based on one seasons events. It was the culmination of a number of seasons events. I wonder if any of you have read Roy Keane's autobiography where he challenges this whole 'sure being there is enough' attitude that Irish people have. Ireland has plenty of talented people, but because no one is allowed to make a legitimate criticism without being dismissed as bitter that he wasnt a success (how do you know?) we dont make the most of things. In the USA, Belgium, Italy, France and other big cycling nations Deignan would have been criticised long ago by someone high profile not some plankton like me. Only two weeks ago Lefevere criticised a young rider Kevin Seeldraeyers for being sick this year and
citing Seeldraeyers' recurring stomach problems. "If a rider knows that his stomach is a weak spot, he must work on it. Johan Museeuw, for example, could not drink milk, so he drank soy milk. In the team we find that Kevin doesn't pay enough attention to these things.”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-friday-august-27-2010

I dont ask you to accept my comments, but at least make an effort to understand them and connect the dots for yourselves rather than just dismissing me as some bonehead player hater.

niceonetom

Revolution909 wrote: »

niceonetom wrote: »

It's not really anti PD though is it? He clearly wants Philip to do well, he's just frustrated that he has done better so far due to a series of illnesses. There's clearly no ill-will in it.

He'd do well to ask himself if he's as frustrated as Deignan is himself, or if he knows more than the doctors and trainers that Deignan has consulted. That'd be a 'No' on both, and I guess that might inspire him to keep his comments to himself.

It's not begrudery either - that's when someone does well and we wish he hadn't - if anything this is the polar opposite; it's a really poorly formed and crass form of support, I guess, though he really should keep his frustrations for the pub, not the press.

Well I was the one who wrote the letter, if you would like to debate any points with me I would be more than happy to.
First of all I think it is clear from my letter that I want Philip Deignan to do well. As is stated throughout the letter I think Philip is a highly capable rider, I have pointed out his numerous achievements thus far and have pointed out that to compete in grand tours with little racing is testament to his ability as a cyclist.
I merely took the information I had and formed an opinion. It was never an attack. It was a comment. An attack would have been to ignore Philip Deignan's considerable talent, his past achievements at all levels of cycling and just slur him.
In other cycling cultures, sports etc What happens to a competitor when he underperforms? He comes in for criticism. Now what is a big consequence of overtraining? Illness and health issues. Philip Deignan admitted himself that he had overtrained last winter and it was causing him problems. So if you guys are right someone who makes a mistake that has consequences should be able to disown those consequences and say they were not his fault. That is not logical. Thus when you argue(or so it seems) that he was ill so couldn't perform you make it out that I am expecting the impossible. I do not expect a man at half capacity to win races. However I believe that an observation that overtraining was his fault and that he shouldnt make that mistake as a professional is justified. I also believe it is fair to put two and two together and say that illness that wrecks a season stems from that mistake.

This whole knocking successful people off their perch thing is not me. I see how my comments could be construed as such but I do not believe in it. I take pride in any of our representatives. However I do not believe that second best is good enough. Especially for a guy that can be at the top. This is not a bolt out of the blue attack based on one seasons events. It was the culmination of a number of seasons events. I wonder if any of you have read Roy Keane's autobiography where he challenges this whole 'sure being there is enough' attitude that Irish people have. Ireland has plenty of talented people, but because no one is allowed to make a legitimate criticism without being dismissed as bitter that he wasnt a success (how do you know?) we dont make the most of things. In the USA, Belgium, Italy, France and other big cycling nations Deignan would have been criticised long ago by someone high profile not some plankton like me. Only two weeks ago Lefevere criticised a young rider Kevin Seeldraeyers for being sick this year and
citing Seeldraeyers' recurring stomach problems. "If a rider knows that his stomach is a weak spot, he must work on it. Johan Museeuw, for example, could not drink milk, so he drank soy milk. In the team we find that Kevin doesn't pay enough attention to these things.”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-friday-august-27-2010

I dont ask you to accept my comments, but at least make an effort to understand them and connect the dots for yourselves rather than just dismissing me as some bonehead player hater.

There are plenty here who do take issue with your letter - I was the only one who made any defence of its content at all (though I'm not really prepared to defend your choice to say it publicly as I really don't see what that achieves). You're not wrong, you're just not telling us anying a)new or b) very interesting.

I suggest you take the last bit I've highlighted there and apply it to my previous post before accusing me of dismissing you as some bonehead player hater. I was dismissing you on totally different grounds.

Are you Jordan's husband?

RobFowl

Revolution909 wrote: »

In the USA, Belgium, Italy, France and other big cycling nations Deignan would have been criticised long ago by someone high profile not some plankton like me. Only two weeks ago Lefevere criticised a young rider Kevin Seeldraeyers for being sick this year and
citing Seeldraeyers' recurring stomach problems. "If a rider knows that his stomach is a weak spot, he must work on it. Johan Museeuw, for example, could not drink milk, so he drank soy milk. In the team we find that Kevin doesn't pay enough attention to these things.”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-friday-august-27-2010

I dont ask you to accept my comments, but at least make an effort to understand them and connect the dots for yourselves rather than just dismissing me as some bonehead player hater.

I suppose to answer a few of your points I'm sure people closer to Philip Deignan have given him advice just not publicly.

Patrick Lefevre was criticised for making those comments and he's a long established DS with a long list of successful riders and teams under his charge.

Far from dismissing your comments I think most of us here want to know why you went public with a list of second hand at best critiques and what in heavens name you hoped to achieve by it.

The only thing to come out of it is a perception that you feel he's not acting professionally by not looking after himself as you feel he should.

Nice thing to hear when you've just effectively been laid off and are looking desperately for another job at the last minute.

Revolution909

Sorry, I was quoting your post as someone who took it the right way and I forgot to take it off when it turned into a sort of defence of myself, so once again I apologise.
That jordan's husband thing is funny, I get that all the time

Chips Lovell

While Deignan has admitted to overtraining, I think where you're going wrong is assuming that all of his problems are the result of it. From the information I've seen I don't think I could draw that conclusion. He's struggled with illness and injury before this season too.

Some people are more prone to illness and injury than others. I simply don't know enough about him to form a judgement on whether he's doing everything he can to stay healthy.

Ryaner

Phil got diagnosed with a stomach bug a few weeks ago. One or two other guys on the Cervelo team also have been having stomach problems for the last while. And from someone who suffers from stomach problems of late, they really suck. They hurt you more mentally than physically and I'm sure you can all relate to the mental aspect of performing well.

DirkVoodoo

I had the scutters for the Sean Kelly, let me tell you it put a severe dampener on my enjoyment of the cycle!

papac

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I had the scutters for the Sean Kelly, let me tell you it put a severe dampener on my enjoyment of the cycle!

Thanks for sharing that.

Did you do a Lemond or a Sonia?? (or something in between)

Slideshowbob

Revolution

What did you hope to achieve by writing the letter?

Wouldn't Philip have learned something from overtraining before?

Wouldnt top coaches and docs be advising him?

Do you know it's his fault he got sick?

Do you know he could have done anything differently?

In fact do you know anything about the chap that ain't in the public realm?

Hardly very motivating for him while riding a grand tour if he decides to have a look a his home country's most popular cycling website during the 3 weeks

niceonetom

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Hardly very motivating for him while riding a grand tour if he decides to have a look a his home country's most popular cycling website during the 3 weeks

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this forum isn't an even more popular website than the letters page of Irish cycling. The fact that the OP found your thread so quickly points to that too. If PD does end up reading it, it's as likely to be your fault for bringing it to our attention as the OP's for submitting it in the first place. Sometimes the best thing to do with something you dislike is ignore it and move on.

Oh. and GO PHIL!!!
(just in case)

Slideshowbob

It was on the Irish cycling dot com home page. Not just the letters page. Anyway just interested in response from revolution to points I raised

Civilian_Target

Wow, Philip Deignan is a professional cyclist and Paddy Delap put him on a bike?! I've already had my surprise for the day.

CrankyCod

if Philip had undertrained, would criticism be justified? If so, what's the problem with criticlism of him overtraining, by his own admission? Do people think that a professional sportsman is so fragile that criticism on his website is going to throw him off form? If so he'd need to seriously toughen up.

Slideshowbob

Eh ok Philip deignan. Pro cyclist.

But needs to harden up???

God help the rest of us :rolleyes:

Dura Ace

During yesterday's stage, Sean Kelly mentioned about Deignan talking to Omega Pharma Lotto about a move there (just before he was seen talking to Philippe Gilbert) and David Harmon mentioned some other team he may have been speaking to, but I didn't catch the team's name.

shapez

Can someone enlighten me with what Nicholas Roche has won instead of trying to place all his eggs in one basket? At least Deignan has won a stage in a major tour. Martin after a poor start is having an amazing end to his season. Roche?????

Slideshowbob

shapez wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me with what Nicholas Roche has won instead of trying to place all his eggs in one basket? At least Deignan has won a stage in a major tour. Martin after a poor start is having an amazing end to his season. Roche?????

Place all his eggs in one basket? What u mean by that?

He won a stage in the tour de l'avenir a few years back and Irish nat champs too!

Chips Lovell

Dura Ace wrote: »

During yesterday's stage, Sean Kelly mentioned about Deignan talking to Omega Pharma Lotto about a move there (just before he was seen talking to Philippe Gilbert) and David Harmon mentioned some other team he may have been speaking to, but I didn't catch the team's name.

Other team was Radioshack