Is The U.S.A the most extreme Terrorist nation?

bobblepuzzle

johnmcdnl wrote: »

why though??? is it because Russia has different views than Ireland??

think about all the poor people in the middle east who live in fear because there views about what is right and wrong differs from America

Go back three decades, when Russia was in Afghanistan...

sxt

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Its better than the previous regime under Sadam tbh, he threathened the stability of the region 100 fold, the guy was a lunatic like Stalin and killed millions of his own people and gased countless more Iranians etc...

It is better for America ....Iraq are no longer a threat in the midlde eastern region...What about the genocides in Rwanda or countless othercountries..Where was America then? Don't belive that America decided to "liberate" Iraq to help the iraqi nation.



Do you think that Iraq will be a democratic country once America withdraws its troops in the near future? ...It is a country that has been decimated, ruined and is in complete and utter chaos!

Terry

I always regret posting in these threads because it always leads to petty bickering and continued picking apart of post, so I'm going to preface this by saying that the following is my own opinion.

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Well what would you do with dangerous people that are a part of a dangerous group intent on attacking the country... tickle their feet, get real! The people that this was inflicted on were not innocent by any means and had **** to answer for...

So you're saying that all the conscripted soldiers were innocent?
That the civilians killed during the shock and awe campaigh were guilty of being terrorists?

I think you need to do a bit of reading as to what war actually entails.

Overheal wrote: »

What kind of fear? The kind of fear like "Oh they'll start WWIII one of these days" kinda fear, or, "I'm afraid to get on a plane to see my mother now" kind of fear?

Neither.
My fear is based upon the fact that they (your government) are blowing up millions of innocent people around the world in order to get their hands on oil.
They are doing this by saying that they are bringing democracy to people who either do not want democracy, or are quite capable of installing democratic governments in their own countries.
They are installing puppet governmentts, just like they did in Cuba and a few other countries around the world. Sit back and watch as this new Afghan one fails in the same way the others did.

They are doing this under the guise of Western values. As a member of a Western country, I disagree with their actions and policies.

No... if it's Illegal it makes it an Illegal Action. You could even call it War Crime. But Terrorism is separate from that.

Shock and awe. Designed to instil fear into the Iraqi people.
Just look at the name.

I don't view Illegal (Unsanctioned by the UN) Wars as Terrorist by the definition. They are Illegal Wars.

I do. I also view these wars as arrogance by a superior force.

The Poll asked my if I thought the United States was the most extreme I voted No. The Poll didn't ask me if I thought the United States was/is involved in Terrorism: I would have told you Yes. Fox News, Glenn Beck? They use a form of Terror-in-Propaganda to coerce listeners and viewers. I deplore it. On the other hand have I never once made an argument through hyperbole?

I agree with you there. The problem is that Fox have so many viewers that the majority of American people are influenced by them.
It's similar to the majority of idiots here continuing to vote in FF.

If it's indoctrination I think it's a far cry from Joseph Stalin's Russia. Or China, or North Korea.

Of course it's not as extreme as Communism, but it's still enforcing your view on the unwilling.
Culture needs to be taken into account at every level.

If the United States employs terror, the majority of it is aimed at the American People; not the Arab World.

In order to garner support for the invasion of other countries.

bobblepuzzle

sxt wrote: »

It is better for America ....Iraq are no longer a threat in the midlde eastern region...What about the genocides in Rwanda or countless othercountries..Where was America then? Don't belive that America decided to "liberate" Iraq to help the iraqi nation.



Do you think that Iraq will be a democratic country once America withdraws its troops in the near future? ...It is a country that has been decimated, ruined and is in complete and utter chaos!

Erm America was in the UN, and willing to engage in Rwanda, but the UN failed massively because of vetos.... so there you have it folks... the UN is an ineffective entity, who knew right??

davrho

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Try telling a superpower that mate... welcome to the real world... just be thankful Russia isn't the worlds superpower... So cry some more about the legal or illegality of the war... won't do any good.

And by the way, even though WMD weren't found, I'm glad they removed a ****

You might not be though... you'ld rather see Sadam kill millions... nice view of things there mate

Good point. Now our boys are killing "millions" the world is a better place. Great view of things blah blah.........

bobblepuzzle

davrho wrote: »

Good point. Now our boys are killing "millions" the world is a better place. Great view of things blah blah.........

"Millions" might want to check your sanity there...

Burned!

johnmcdnl

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Go back three decades, when Russia was in Afghanistan...

exactly go back 3 decades - in todays world it's a different story is it not

bobblepuzzle

johnmcdnl wrote: »

exactly go back 3 decades - in todays world it's a different story is it not

It is actually, since the Russians conducted a war of attrition against the Afghan people themselves...

sxt

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

"Millions" might want to check your sanity there...

Burned!

Why do you think America Invaded Iraq?

bobblepuzzle

sxt wrote: »

Why do you think America Invaded Iraq?

To remove a prick, the oil is a bonus Good job lads! Jolly good Hopefully, North Korea is next

davrho

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

"Millions" might want to check your sanity there...

Burned!

You mentioned the figures.......

Saddam's millions? Sanity?

Burning away here................

bobblepuzzle

davrho wrote: »

You mentioned the figures.......

Saddam's millions? Sanity?

Burning away here................

That was an error of mine as I mentioned Stalin in the same post....

Please forgive me ffs!

Washington Irving

Ohh, the poll is currently split 50-50, 62 votes each. Isreal is more extremist than the US, IMO

EDIT: No longer 50-50

galwayrush

Saul-Goode9 wrote: »

Ohh, the poll is currently split 50-50, 62 votes each. Isreal is more extremist than the US, IMO

EDIT: No longer 50-50

I'd still prefer to live under Israeli rule compared to some of the Muslim states in that region. It suits my way of living better.

carvaggio

For me terrorism would be purely setting out to cause fear to innocent civilians (by any number of means).

I personally do not believe that the USA sets out to do that.

The poll result doesn't surprise me given how popular it is to dislike the US in Ireland, regardless of how little most people (though not all people) actually know about it's wars.

That could be said of a lot of things though, people thoroughly enjoy talking as if they are experts on things they have very little knowledge of.

Terry

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

It is actually, since the Russians conducted a war of attrition against the Afghan people themselves...

As part of the bitchfest between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.
Democracy won, but millions of innocent people in southern Asia persihed as a result.

sxt wrote: »

Why do you think America Invaded Iraq?

Operation Iraqi Liberation.

Washington Irving

galwayrush wrote: »

I'd still prefer to live under Israeli rule compared to some of the Muslim states in that region. It suits my way of living better.

Agreed, but I still think Isreal is more extremist towards terrorism. They are a lot more protective of their 'promised land', than the US

dvpower

galwayrush wrote: »

Thinking about it seriously, i much prefer to live under American type freedom and values compared to the likes of the regimes they are fighting against.

galwayrush wrote: »

I'd still prefer to live under Israeli rule compared to some of the Muslim states in that region. It suits my way of living better.

You could just stick around here and live under Cowan rule.:eek:

Jeboa Safari

The US is no where near as bad as some of the middle eastern nations. I find it hard to understand the Irish dislike for America, often ignoring anything bad about other nations just to bash the US

bobblepuzzle

Terry wrote: »

As part of the bitchfest between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.
Democracy won, but millions of innocent people in southern Asia persihed as a result.

Agreed, but unfortunately it was unavoidable, two ideologies fighting... luckly for us it didn't come to clash of the titans :eek:

sxt

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

The US is no where near as bad as some of the middle eastern nations. I find it hard to understand the Irish dislike for America, often ignoring anything bad about other nations just to bash the US

...1.2 million iraqi people killed in an illegal war....

bobblepuzzle

johnmcdnl wrote: »

America is the biggest rogue state in the world trying to force their values on every country that tries to stand up to oppose them in anyways...

they try to westernise every country in the world and have no one bar america in their interests... look at all the wars over oil and whatever in the world...

what's the last war that they haven't stuck their noses into...

they think they have some kind of moral superiority over the rest of the world and that what's good for america is good for the world...

just be happy america isn't a muslim country that would try to force sharia law on the world.... at least our morals are somewhat similar to theirs like the rest of europe


america is the biggest rogue nation in the world if you ask me

Please enlighten us with your knowledge of the previous wars (prior to Afghanistan and Iraq)? Also define for us how those wars came to be? (might want to read a bit of history)

galwayrush

Saul-Goode9 wrote: »

Agreed, but I still think Isreal is more extremist towards terrorism. They are a lot more protective of their 'promised land', than the US

True, but it's hard to ignore or tolerate the terrorism when it's purpose is to destroy their tiny nation.

Washington Irving

galwayrush wrote: »

True, but it's hard to ignore or tolerate the terrorism when it's purpose is to destroy their tiny nation.

Good point. They are more extreme, but have more right to be. If that makes any sense?

yank_in_eire

HA! What a bunch of pussies. You're all speaking English instead of German or Japanese because the US manned up and "got 'er done". Go USA!

nacho libre

it seems carvaggio is largely unaware of the catalogue of crimes committed by us governments over the years (or rather, by individuals within their government). i can only assume this is the reason he is incredulous that Irish people could be critical of America.

he must not have heard of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, supporting death squads and dictators in central america, ousting democratic governments in south america, supporting muslim extremist, whilst turning a blind eye to their persecution of women and burning of schools, because it was politically convenient to do so at the time.

yet despite all these things, we still have people on this thread portraying them as a knight in shining armour motivated by benevolent aims to spread democracy and freedom.
the other day someone was justifying the Iraq war on the basis that Saddam was a a bad man. well what about all the dictators that America were only to happy to support over the last fifty years because they were amenable to american interests? it seems saddam's crime was not to be a dictator, but rather one who turned against his former ally- yes that's right carvaggio Saddam was at once stage was a US ally. if he had only played along, like Mubarak and Karimov, he'd probably have been left alone.

so when you consider all these things the depiction of America as the crusading hero, who, when they invade or interfere in other countries, are motivated by noble ideals of spreading freedom and alleviating suffering is pure twaddle.

the criteria for intervention is whether a country has any possible strategic value. If so, then it seems that everything from covert operations to the outright use of overwhelming force is fair game. If it is not, indifference is usually the order of the day.

if it was otherwise then the likes of Mugabe, Taylor and Afwerki would have been removed by force.

Jeboa Safari

sxt wrote: »

...1.2 million iraqi people killed in an illegal war....

Where are you getting them figures from? Also how many were at the hands of the US?

galwayrush

yank_in_eire wrote: »

HA! What a bunch of pussies. You're all speaking English instead of German or Japanese because the US manned up and "got 'er done". Go USA!

LOL, and if those extremist Muslims take over, we'll have no Beer, **** that...........

galwayrush

Quote:
Originally Posted by sxt
...1.2 million iraqi people killed in an illegal war....

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Where are you getting them figures from? Also how many were at the hands of the US?

Those figures confuse me as well, Quite a lot of that number were more than likely killed by their own people,also Sadam wasn't too nice to the Kurds, I wonder how many would have died if Sadam was ignored when he invaded Kuwait and carried on?

NTMK

Whats Legal about entering wars with 2 contries on the other side of the world One of which was based on false claims (WMDS) where all they've suceeded to do is destroy both countries kill and "detain" many innocent people and thus turning many their children to terrorism because of their hate of americans.

Once they leave Iraq a civil war is going to break out.

Afganistan is another vietnam.

So basically all they have suceeded to is Glamourise Terrorism and turn the entire middle east against them

Im not anti american, my grandparents were american but this blind Patriotism and the believe that your doing some good out there is the exact reason why many people think America is full of Gun-toting Idiots

RMD

Quote I heard before which sums it up well.

"Terrorism is the war of the poor, war is the terrorism of the wealthy".

philologos

Personally, even if the US is regarded as belligerent, if one looks at it as a nation, arguably it goes further in respect to civil liberties than other similar nations.

Liam Byrne

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd be more inclined to say they are agressive about their sense of patriotism and national security.

They don't tend to get stuck in unless 1 of the following occurs;

1) Threat of the spread of comuinism.
2) A direct attack has been made on them.

Other then point 1, they have never instigated wars with other countries. I wouldnt refer to them as warlike, but do agree that they are agressive.

The facts contradict you, considering that Iraq did neither of the above.

NTMK

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The facts contradict you, considering that Iraq did neither of the above.

Niether did afghanistan. the 9/11 hijackers were mainly saudi and bin laden is also saudi

davyjose

Putting aside the War vs Terrorism debate, America's prevailing goal, and one I can't help but admire is simple: Deal swift and fast.

America: "Fvck with us, I dare ye."
Some Middle Easterns: "We'll blow up two of your buildings."
America: "Don't say we didn't warn ye."

<Nine years later and a smouldering ember which was once the heart of Middle eastern civilisation>

Iran: "Hey so about those nukes, pfft lets let bygones be bygones, ... have you lost weight??"

North korea: "Wha'? I didn't say anthin'. Here, I found this wanderin' around somewhere. <hands over a few spies.> Wha?"

And as for the argument about being, or (guffaw) not being under America's protection. See how you'd feel if China called the shots.

seawolf145

yank_in_eire wrote: »

HA! What a bunch of pussies. You're all speaking English instead of German or Japanese because the US manned up and "got 'er done". Go USA!

you mean after the japanese kicked the ****e out of us at pearl harbour

sock puppet

NTMK wrote: »

Niether did afghanistan. the 9/11 hijackers were mainly saudi and bin laden is also saudi

Their nationality isn't really that relevant. It was an Afghanistan based organistation that carried out the attacks.

davyjose

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The facts contradict you, considering that Iraq did neither of the above.

Irrelevant.

Iraq 1 was a fcuk up, and from an American perspective, they were let off the hook.
This, again from a US perspective, made the Middle Easterns brazen.

Eleven years after the first Iraq war: the excuse to right a wrong arose, and America made their position clearer (as I stated above): don't fcuk with us.

Think about it. Would you feel as confident about attacking America today, as you would have ten years ago? No chance.

TBH it goes beyond oil. America don't really need oil yet. They have a lot. It's about power -- America used the 9/11 bombings to assert theirs, and it has worked.

sock puppet

seawolf145 wrote: »

you mean after the japanese kicked the ****e out of us at pearl harbour

Given that it was a surprise attack it hardly qualifies as kicking the ****e out of anyone. It's akin to running up to someone bigger than you, hitting them and then running away. They also failed to destroy any American aircraft carriers which were at sea at the time. Not really what you'd call a resounding victory.

Terry

yank_in_eire wrote: »

HA! What a bunch of pussies. You're all speaking English instead of German or Japanese because the US manned up and "got 'er done". Go USA!

Yeah, when most of the combatants were already either dead or war weary.
Gute Nacht

IvySlayer

yank_in_eire wrote: »

HA! What a bunch of pussies. You're all speaking English instead of German or Japanese because the US manned up and "got 'er done". Go USA!

Er no, I thank Russia.

NTMK

sock puppet wrote: »

Their nationality isn't really that relevant. It was an Afghanistan based organistation that carried out the attacks.

its also based in
Somalia
Turkey
Saudi
Yemen
Pakistan
Libya
Egypt
and many others

so would it be okay for America to invade all these countries aswell?

philologos

IvySlayer wrote: »

Er no, I thank Russia.

And dare I say, I don't think many of us are endorsing Soviet Russia's legacy, which arguably was worse than that of the nation they ended up playing a role in freeing (half of).

I don't think one could soberly say that the legacy of the USA is worse than that of the former Soviet Russia, and the current North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and so on.

IvySlayer

Jakkass wrote: »

And dare I say, I don't think many of us are endorsing Soviet Russia's legacy, which arguably was worse than that of the nation they ended up playing a role in freeing (half of).

I don't think one could soberly say that the legacy of the USA is worse than that of the former Soviet Russia, and the current North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and so on.

I'm not here to argue who's worse. I'm just pointing out to the Americans who watch Hollywood films and think they swooped in to save us from the Nazis, when Russia actually crushed the Germans.

Rabble Rabble

the other day someone was justifying the Iraq war on the basis that Saddam was a a bad man. well what about all the dictators that America were only to happy to support over the last fifty years because they were amenable to american interests?

One of the interesting things is that the Soviet Union has slipped down the memory hole, airbrushed out of history like a picture of Trotsky at the 56th Comintern.

The US supported Dictators, sometimes naievly, because the Soviet Union and China supported other Dictators. Worse Dictators in most cases. And were, themselves, run by dictators.

Had the US removed itself from Europe at the end of WWII - which would have been in it's tradition, it was founded by people who wanted to get off this blood thirsty continent and have nothing to do with it - the old world would have been communist. And with no competing political or economic system in Europe ( or most of EurAsia) the middle East and Africa would have fallen like dominoes.

Possilby the Islands may have survived if we asked the yanks in prompto.

To that we owe them our eternal gratitude.

frankly, were I american in the 1980's I would have pulled out and removed the nuclear shield from Europe rather than listen to sh*te.

Er no, I thank Russia.

I thank the Americans for supplying the Russians and then fighting to contain them.

( The Russians as major allies of the Nazis is another fact, not quite down the memory hole, but almost forgotten. We are supposed to be thankful that the Soviet Empire which was happen to carve up Europe with it's German allies at the start of the war fought the Nazis when - and only when - it was invaded, something which earned that ugly vile puss ridden empire half of Europe. Real Heroes)

sock puppet

NTMK wrote: »

its also based in
Somalia
Turkey
Saudi
Yemen
Pakistan
Libya
Egypt
and many others

so would it be okay for America to invade all these countries aswell?

What a ridiculous argument. Al Qaeda are fighting against the Pakistani government while they were supported by the Afghan government. Can you really not see the distinction?

The US didn't just invade Afghanistan either. They gave the Taliban the chance to give up the heads of Al Qaeda which the Taliban refused.

King Felix

Jakkass wrote: »

Personally, even if the US is regarded as belligerent, if one looks at it as a nation, arguably it goes further in respect to civil liberties than other similar nations.

Did you miss out on the Patriot Act, the Drug Wars, the interest that must be paid back to the Federal Reserve, no welfare system etc?

sock puppet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

( The Russians as major allies of the Nazis is another fact, not quite down the memory hole, but almost forgotten. We are supposed to be thankful that the Soviet Empire which was happen to carve up Europe with it's German allies at the start of the war fought the Nazis when - and only when - it was invaded, something which earned that ugly vile puss ridden empire half of Europe. )

No they weren't. They signed a non-aggression pact which is totally different. Allies usually don't have to make written agreements not to attack each other every 10 years.

philologos

King Felix wrote: »

Did you miss out on the Patriot Act, the Drug Wars, the interest that must be paid back to the Federal Reserve, no welfare system etc?

The prohibition of drugs is a reasonable restriction on the basis of harm in a society. Drugs don't only harm individuals, but harm entire societies. That said, you will be pleased to hear that California have a proposition for the November ballot on the legalisation of cannabis.

As for welfare system, the US clearly isn't a welfare State. It's a free market capitalist system with very little regulation. Some people mightn't like this, but it certainly doesn't mean that the US doesn't endorse civil liberties above and beyond many other states, and in some respects any other states. I don't know a single country that respects free speech as much as the USA. Our laws fade in comparison, just take a read of the Public Order Act of 1994.

Patriot Act - I'm not saying that the US is a perfect State. I'm saying that the US goes above and beyond Ireland and other countries in many respects. It would be unfair and unreasonable to say otherwise. As for monitoring internet traffic & phone systems, in respect to suspected terrorists I'm not all that opposed I must say particularly if it saves lives. I'm not in agreement with tapping phones, or internet without a decent reason though.

Rabble Rabble

sock puppet wrote: »

No they weren't. They signed a non-aggression pact which is totally different. Allies usually don't have to make written agreements not to attack each other every 10 years.

A non-agression pact does not normally also entail the mutual invasion and agreed carving up of another country. The Soviets were more co-ordinated members of the Axis than Japan, who never helped the Germans open up two fronts ( by attacking Russia from the East, for instance), as Russia did with Poland.

Germany and it's Soviet Allies attacked Poland at the same time ( no British war declared on the Soviets, note). And the Soviet Union aided the Germans with equipment until the Germans invaded.