Anti-Semitism - what exactly is it?

Nodin

digme wrote: »

It only means (.......)labelled an anti semite.

Funny, I can find all kinds of that kind of thing reported on media not only owned by Jews, but reported by - and you'd want to sit down for this - Jews. In fact, even by Jews in Israel, which you may have marked on the map with "GHQ" and a picture of a fella with horns and a tail...

Scofflaw

digme wrote: »

So i can call you a european, but if I say anti eurpoean I really mean Irish?That's retarded.

Actually, if you call me "anti-European" you would most probably be labelling me as an opponent of the EU, that being what the term is most commonly used to mean.

Anti-European, much like anti-Semitic, doesn't really make much sense taken literally, which may be why those terms get displaced to mean something related but slightly different.

Either way, how ever much you argue it, you can't change the fact that the popularly accepted meaning of the term is something other than the literal. Since language is about communicating meaning, trying to redefine the term single-handedly is pointless. If you prefer to use the somewhat more cumbersome 'judeophobia', you're welcome to do so, but you can't stop other people using the popularly accepted term.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dudess

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its funny (and I suppose predicable knowing this board) that a thread on what anti-semitism is has morphed into a general anti-Israeli thread.

Actually it's always those who defend the behaviour of the Israeli government/military who throw out the "anti semitism" line incorrectly.

And its also funny that the motivations of those who in general support Israel or the IDF gets questioned

Apart from when it's proportionate defence of the Israeli people against Hamas (oh wait, said proportionate defence doesn't happen) can't see what's so remarkable about questioning it - pretty logical surely?

but when the motivations of those who post anti-Israeli stuff gets questioned then people get hysterical, I guess its because one side seems to shout louder than the other as it were

If you want to consider objections to the brutality inflicted on the people of Palestine by the Israeli government to be anti Israeli, that's your call. Many though are merely sickened by Israel's bullying tactics against ordinary Palestinians (not Hamas) and baffled that anyone could be supportive of this campaign. I personally don't even think about the Israelis' Judeaism, because when it comes to the crunch, is it even relevant? It's only people who won't face up to just how harsh the Israeli military can be that throw out the "anti semitism" cheap shot.

the fact is that from observing and posting on this board for several years that many (but not all by any means) of the anti-Israeli posters are either muslim, lefties or sinn feiners, that can't be just a coincidence.

Again, saying a critic of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is anti Israeli is like saying objection to the British presence in Iraq is anti British. It's hardly a condemnation of Israeli people, and it's certainly not a condemnation of Judeaism.
People who are such critics are generally just people who dislike bullying (not denying there aren't those with an agenda, or defending Hamas) - whereas people who defend the Israeli government's tactics (and who aren't Israeli/don't have a connection to Israel - but is that even an excuse?) - islamophobes? People who are just completely heartless? People who have to be all right-wing and no-nonsense at all costs? People who are going against a grain for the sake of it?

Why would you actually defend the Israeli government's behaviour?

Sykes wrote: »

anti-semitism as being racism against Jews.

Exactly - and that's not what criticism of the Israeli government is. Thank you.

If this thread was about Catholics, it wouldn't have made it past page one before being deleted.

Lol - you haven't a clue about Boards. Or Ireland. The catholic church gets regularly ripped apart in Ireland these days.

Cromwellian Conquest

Dudess wrote: »

Actually it's always those who defend the behaviour of the Israeli government/military who throw out the "anti semitism" line incorrectly.

That seems like a sweeping generalisation. Ironic, given that a large part of racism is about generalisations.

Lol - you haven't a clue about Boards. Or Ireland. The catholic church gets regularly ripped apart in Ireland these days.

I think you missed the point he was making.

Ripping apart the Catholic church as an organisation, is not the same as ripping apart Catholics as a people. Unfortunately very few here are talking about Judaism as a religion. Their vitriol is aimed at Jews as a people.

demonspawn

Ok, here is a true display of the Israeli flag as you would see it in Israel. The two blue lines represent the two great rivers, Tigris and Euphrates. The inverted Star of David represents...well, one can only speculate really.



When we talk about Israelis we are not talking about Jews in terms of the followers of Judaism. As has been discussed already, Zionists do not follow the teachings of Judaism so cannot be considered Jews in the true meaning of the word. Therefore, anti-Zionism is completely different to, and separate from antisemitism (a fancy world for racism).

Scofflaw

Cromwellian Conquest wrote: »

That seems like a sweeping generalisation. Ironic, given that a large part of racism is about generalisations.


I think you missed the point he was making.

Ripping apart the Catholic church as an organisation, is not the same as ripping apart Catholics as a people. Unfortunately very few here are talking about Judaism as a religion. Their vitriol is aimed at Jews as a people.

In a couple of cases that may be true, but there's a basic syllogistic error being made. All anti-Semites are probably opposed to Zionism, but not everyone opposed to Zionism is an anti-Semite (just as many Zionists are not Jewish). Indeed, not everyone opposed to modern Zionism is anti-Israel.

Equally, it's perfectly possible to be opposed to American aggression abroad without being opposed to America itself, and quite possible to point out that many of those promoting American foreign aggression within America are evangelical Christians without being in any way opposed to Christianity.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin

demonspawn wrote: »

Ok, here is a true display of the Israeli flag as you would see it in Israel.............

..if it was hung sideways.

Cromwellian Conquest

Scofflaw wrote: »

In a couple of cases that may be true, but there's a basic syllogistic error being made. All anti-Semites are probably opposed to Zionism, but not everyone opposed to Zionism is an anti-Semite (just as many Zionists are not Jewish). Indeed, not everyone opposed to modern Zionism is anti-Israel.

cordially,
Scofflaw

"Zionism" is the cover for anti-semites, just like the mafia opening a 'legitimate' business as a cover for their illegitimate gains.

Very few people know about Zionism. Those that do, attribute far too much to it. Zionism was born out of persecution.

Zionism is a belief in a homeland for the Jews. A safe haven. Once Israel was reestablished, Zionism became about the development of the state of Israel as a Jewish state.

The idea that the average screeching lefty on these "we're all Hezbollah" marches, or the Irish lot on here who claim Jews own the media and run America, are only doing so because they oppose Zionist ideology is laughable. Especially since Zionism is a noble and benign ideology whose name has been hijacked since the 1970's by anti-semite and and anit-Israel bigots as a cover word for "Jew" so as not to expose their real intentions and real thoughts.

Nodin

...why would anyone bother hiding their "real" thoughts in this anonymous medium, where the majority have condemned anti-semitism?

Scofflaw

Nodin wrote: »

...why would anyone bother hiding their "real" thoughts in this anonymous medium, where the majority have condemned anti-semitism?

Indeed - since (apparently) we're all anti-Semites, why would be bother hiding our anti-Semitism?

amused,
Scofflaw

Cromwellian Conquest

demonspawn wrote: »

Ok, here is a true display of the Israeli flag as you would see it in Israel. The two blue lines represent the two great rivers, Tigris and Euphrates. The inverted Star of David represents...well, one can only speculate really.

This libel against the Jews is on par with the blood libel in its ridiculousness. Very few people still actually believe this myth.

Congratulations.

demonspawn

Cromwellian Conquest wrote: »

This libel against the Jews is on par with the blood libel in its ridiculousness. Very few people still actually believe this myth.

Congratulations.

What libel against the Jews? Zionists are not Jews. What's so hard to understand about that?

Perhaps you could explain what the flag of Israel represents so? Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of Judaism and Zionism.

Cromwellian Conquest

Scofflaw wrote: »

Indeed - since (apparently) we're all anti-Semites, why would be bother hiding our anti-Semitism?

amused,
Scofflaw

Because I believe the forum has rules, and additionally in order to recruit more people to your way of thinking - this has to be done in a more gentle way than out and out racism.

It would be harder to be out in the streets with leaflets calling for the Jews to be "wiped off the face of the earth" than to call for "zionists to be destroyed"

It's as if the left wing, Muslims and Irish actually think they're being really clever by hiding behind the Zionist name.

Cromwellian Conquest

demonspawn wrote: »

What libel against the Jews? Zionists are not Jews. What's so hard to understand about that?

Your frothing at the mouth about Zionists and having Zionists on the brain and under your bed has blinded you to a very simple fact.

Zionism is about the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jews. That's it.

Most Jews support a homeland for Jews. Most non-Jews support Israel's right to exist.

Hence dear demonspawn, most people are Zionists. I as a non-Jew and non-Israeli am a Zionist. David Cameron said he was a Zionist.

If you support a state for the Jews to live in safety and security, then you're a Zionist. End of story.

demonspawn

Nodin wrote: »

..if it was hung sideways.

If it's hung sideways then it has no meaning. That's why American soldiers must wear the flag upside down or backwards when engaged in a private war like the one in Iraq. An upside down American flag has no meaning, it does not legally represent the United States of America.

demonspawn

Cromwellian Conquest wrote: »

Your frothing at the mouth about Zionists and having Zionists on the brain and under your bed has blinded you to a very simple fact.

Zionism is about the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jews. That's it.

Most Jews support a homeland for Jews. Most non-Jews support Israel's right to exist.

Hence dear demonspawn, most people are Zionists. I as a non-Jew and non-Israeli am a Zionist. David Cameron said he was a Zionist.

If you support a state for the Jews to live in safety and security, then you're a Zionist. End of story.

The reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is strictly forbidden until the return of the Messiah. The only time Israel can be rebuilt is after the Apocalypse and the day of Judgment.

This is what Judaism believes. This is why Zionists are not Jews. Comprende?

Maybe you can tell me what an "end timer" is and why they send so much money to Israel for their conflict with the Palestinians?

Scofflaw

Cromwellian Conquest wrote: »

Your frothing at the mouth about Zionists and having Zionists on the brain and under your bed has blinded you to a very simple fact.

Zionism is about the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jews. That's it.

Most Jews support a homeland for Jews. Most non-Jews support Israel's right to exist.

Hence dear demonspawn, most people are Zionists. I as a non-Jew and non-Israeli am a Zionist. David Cameron said he was a Zionist.

If you support a state for the Jews to live in safety and security, then you're a Zionist. End of story.

Then most of us are probably Zionists in that sense, and we need another term for people who support the state of Israel but consider its current behaviour unacceptable, and its annexation of Palestinian land immoral.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sceptre

demonspawn wrote: »

Ok, here is a true display of the Israeli flag as you would see it in Israel. The two blue lines represent the two great rivers, Tigris and Euphrates. The inverted Star of David represents...well, one can only speculate really.

Urban myth. The basic design is based on the tallit. The Nile to Euphrates (not Tigris to Euphrates, that'd place Israel in mid-Iraq even by your own reckoning) thing was made up by people in the 1960s relating to a reference in Genesis. Like all urban myths it's grown legs and is routinely quoted by people as if it were true.

gizmo

demonspawn wrote: »

If it's hung sideways then it has no meaning. That's why American soldiers must wear the flag upside down or backwards when engaged in a private war like the one in Iraq. An upside down American flag has no meaning, it does not legally represent the United States of America.

Incorrect. The flag is worn with the appearance of being backwards on soldiers right arm to symbolize early American armies which had a flag carrier holding the flag high, which looks backwards from one side while correct from the other. The "backwards" flag signifies this and gives the perception that every soldier is carrying a flag. This differs from the left arm patches which are correctly laid.

More info here.

The upside down flag has its origin in a military distress signal, displaying a flag in this manner is "a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property". The effect can be seen in mainstream in the film The Last Castle actually.

demonspawn

sceptre wrote: »

Urban myth. The basic design is based on the tallit. The Nile to Euphrates (not Tigris to Euphrates, that'd place Israel in mid-Iraq even by your own reckoning) thing was made up by people in the 1960s relating to a reference in Genesis. Like all urban myths it's grown legs and is routinely quoted by people as if it were true.

Sorry, Nile to Euphrates. Then maybe you know the reason for the two blue lines on the flag with the inverted star in the middle? Every bit of symbolism has it's meaning. They don't just put things on flags because it looks pretty. Symbols hold power over people.

demonspawn

gizmo wrote: »

Incorrect. The flag is worn with the appearance of being backwards on soldiers right arm to symbolize early American armies which had a flag carrier holding the flag high, which looks backwards from one side while correct from the other. The "backwards" flag signifies this and gives the perception that every soldier is carrying a flag. This differs from the left arm patches which are correctly laid.

US military doesn't wear flag patches on their left arm.

The upside down flag has its origin in a military distress signal, displaying a flag in this manner is "a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property". The effect can be seen in mainstream in the film The Last Castle actually.

Then why would the upside down flag be worn on a regular basis?

Nodin

Cromwellian Conquest wrote: »

Because I believe the forum has rules, and additionally in order to recruit more people to your way of thinking - this has to be done in a more gentle way than out and out racism.

....but we've already seen a minority of anti-semetic posts and - shock of shocks - the posters are still there. Which rather knocks that one on the head.

Fairbairn wrote:

I guess 'Juden' is slightly unfashionable now, but the Germans certainly didn't need any fancy words to cover their anti-semitism.

Germans called Jews "Jews" in German? I would have thought that the least of the crimes of the regime in question.....

Nodin

demonspawn wrote: »

If it's hung sideways then it has no meaning.

....so? It was hung sideways in the photo.

If you want to go all 'Goat of Mendes' about it, this is really not the place.

gizmo

demonspawn wrote: »

US military doesn't wear flag patches on their left arm.

US Army do not wear the patches on their left arm. Some Special Operations Units such as the Rangers and Navy Seals do however.

demonspawn wrote: »

Then why would the upside down flag be worn on a regular basis?

I've never seen it myself, got any pics of it?

Scofflaw

Nodin wrote: »

....so? It was hung sideways in the photo.

If you want to go all 'Goat of Mendes' about it, this is really not the place.

Very much so - we're beginning to veer off on a fairly CTish tangent.

moderately,
Scofflaw

demonspawn

Ok sorry. It's difficult to talk about Israel and Zionism without getting into CT so I'll just stay out of this one.

*slowly walks back the the CT forum and begins to sulk.*

Nodin

demonspawn wrote: »

(.......) It's difficult to talk about Israel and Zionism without getting into CT(......)

Nope.

demonspawn

Nodin wrote: »

Nope.

So you know all about Theodor Herzl and his vast efforts to bring about the creation of state of Israel? More conspiracy fact than theory really. :rolleyes: Anyway, back to the dungeon with me.

Edit: Just thought I'd throw this in. From Herzl's wiki page:

Herzl had minimal interest in Judaism as a child, consistent with his parents’ lax adherence to the Jewish tradition. His mother relied more on German humanist Kultur than Jewish ethics. Instead of a Bar Mitzvah, Herzl’s thirteenth birthday was advertised a “confirmation”. To be sure, he grew up as a “thoroughly emancipated, antitraditional, secular, would-be German boy” who dismissed all religion, and spoke of Judaism with “mocking cynicism.” He exhibited a secularist disdain toward religion, which he saw as uncivilized. Even after becoming interested in The Jewish question, Herzl's writing retained traces of Jewish self-contempt.

Gotta love those "Jewish" Zionists, eh? Some could say Herzl and his band came up with the final solution to the "Jewish Question".

Clawdeeus

Thank Jesus...

BlaasForRafa

demonspawn wrote: »

What libel against the Jews? Zionists are not Jews. What's so hard to understand about that?

Perhaps you could explain what the flag of Israel represents so? Please, enlighten us all with your vast knowledge of Judaism and Zionism.

Holy crap you just might be the dumbest poster I've ever seen on boards

JustinDee

demonspawn wrote: »

The reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is strictly forbidden until the return of the Messiah. The only time Israel can be rebuilt is after the Apocalypse and the day of Judgment.

This is what Judaism believes. This is why Zionists are not Jews. Comprende?

Utter tosh.
What are you reading on the internet??