Are Irish players getting a raw deal by playing in England?

Johnny Utah

Shay Given, a top class goalkeeper, is currently sitting on the bench at Man City as English keeper Joe Hart is number one choice right now with Mancini. Likewise, Robbie Keane (a proven goalscorer at Premier League and international level) is on the bench at Spurs, behind both Defoe and Crouch. I don't rate Crouch too highly tbh and I think Robbie offers a lot more to Spurs in terms of link-up play between midfield and attack.

Man City disposed of Richie Dunne, replacing him with English defender Joleon Lescott, and paid a hefty fee for the Everton defender in the process. Dunne was City's player of the season for a couple of years before he left.

Similarly, Stephen Ireland and James Milner swapped clubs recently, but the Englishman commanded a much higher transfer fee. Imo, Stephen Ireland and Milner have a similar enough level of ability, so I don't see the logic in why City were so desperate to replace Ireland with Milner at great expense. Stephen Ireland (before Mancini arrived anyway) was one of City's most promising young prospects and I think he was their best player in the season before last.

Players from Britain and Ireland have always had a long tradition of playing in the top flight of English football. They speak the language and usually settle in well to life in England. Johnny Giles was a central figure of the great Leeds United team, Aldridge/Whelan/Staunton etc played for a successful Liverpool side and more recently Roy Keane and Denis Irwin were mainstays of the all-conquering Man Utd team of the 90s. Nowadays, however, it seems that the top English clubs (either under instruction from the English FA or by their own choice) are giving a strong preference to English players.

Is this because the English FA are desperate for success on the international stage?

It seems to me, anyway, that the top English clubs are reserving places for the best English players and then buying the best international talent to play alongside those players (irrespective of whether that talent is South American, African, or Irish). Of course, a big spending club is quite entitled to spend money how they wish, but if they genuinely want to buy the best players in the world, then they should buy those players on their merits without providing an exemption for English footballers. The current trend is wrong imo; it's akin to the U12 sunday league manager picking his own son for the 'A' team and then playing him at right-back (regardless of whether that kid is even good enough to be picked).

One of the knock-on effects is that decent Irish/Scottish/Welsh players are forced to move down to lesser clubs in the Premier League, where the standard of football isn't as good. Alternatively, they get to spend time on the bench of a big club, which obviously isn't ideal either. Remember as well, the best players from Britain & Ireland have made the English Premier League what it is today. If all the Irish/Scottish/Welsh players stayed away from English football forty years ago, Leeds/Liverpool/Forest/United would hardly have enjoyed the succes they had in the following decades. And I think this is an important point because Ireland/Scotland/Wales/N Ireland are struggling at international level nowadays. Scotland, in particular, used to have a strong national side and used to routinely qualify for international tournaments; nowadays, however, they have been dragged down to the level of Lithuania....... has international football radically improved in recent years coupled with a deterioation in Scottish football? Yes, you could make a strong argument for these two factors, but at the end of the day Scotland don't have a Grame Souness playing midfield for Liverpool, or a Denis Law starting up front for Man United. Now, I'm not against foreigners playing in the Premier League (far from it), but if English clubs want to buy the best then they should, without giving English internationals a leg up.

They are essentially builiding a league around the England team when it should be the other way around imo. It could be argued that the English FA (if they are forcing clubs to prioritise English players) are in essence trying to buy success for the national team. A certain number of English players guaranteed a place with a big club to play alongside the best players in the world, which can only improve their ability. It's a win-win scenario for the FA.


And, in view of this recent trend, would the best Irish players be better off playing for big clubs on the Continent where they may have a better chance of playing at the top level for cultured footballing teams?

There was a good article on the recent transfer of Aiden McGeady to Spartak Moscow. In short, the author said that if McGeady had moved to a mid-table premier league club, like Birmingham City for example, nobody would have batted an eyelid, but because he moved to Moscow eyebrows were raised. An Irish international lining out for a mid-table/struggling EPL club is almost expected now, whereas long ago that same player would be wearing the red of Liverpool or United. Indeed, if McGeady were to swap Glasgow for Birmingham, he would most likely be fighting for mid-table mediocrity or avoiding the drop. For these types of clubs, football is more hoofball and partipation in European football is simply unattainable.

Instead, Aiden McGeady, a skilful and naturally talented winger, gets to ply his trade in the Champions League with a team who favour passing and possession over route one tactics. If McGeady settles in Russia, I think he could improve immensely as a player. Maybe more Irish players should consider a move abroad rather than languishing on the bench of a big-spending English club?

CSF

You've only referenced one club really. Maybe the thread should read 'Are Irish players getting a raw deal by playing for Man City/being Robbie Keane?'

everdead.ie

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Shay Given, a top class goalkeeper, is currently sitting on the bench at Man City as English keeper Joe Hart is number one choice right now with Mancini. Likewise, Robbie Keane (a proven goalscorer at Premier League and international level) is on the bench at Spurs, behind both Defoe and Crouch. I don't rate Crouch too highly tbh and I think Robbie offers a lot more to Spurs in terms of link-up play between midfield and attack.

Man City disposed of Richie Dunne, replacing him with English defender Joleon Lescott, and paid a hefty fee for the Everton defender in the process. Dunne was City's player of the season for a couple of years before he left.

Similarly, Stephen Ireland and James Milner swapped clubs recently, but the Englishman commanded a much higher transfer fee. Imo, Stephen Ireland and Milner have a similar enough level of ability, so I don't see the logic in why City were so desperate to replace Ireland with Milner at great expense. Stephen Ireland (before Mancini arrived anyway) was one of City's most promising young prospects and I think he was their best player in the season before last.

Players from Britain and Ireland have always had a long tradition of playing in the top flight of English football. They speak the language and usually settle in well to life in England. Johnny Giles was a central figure of the great Leeds United team, Aldridge/Whelan/Staunton etc played for a successful Liverpool side and more recently Roy Keane and Denis Irwin were mainstays of the all-conquering Man Utd team of the 90s. Nowadays, however, it seems that the top English clubs (either under instruction from the English FA or by their own choice) are giving a strong preference to English players.

Is this because the English FA are desperate for success on the international stage?

It seems to me, anyway, that the top English clubs are reserving places for the best English players and then buying the best international talent to play alongside those players (irrespective of whether that talent is South American, African, or Irish). Of course, a big spending club is quite entitled to spend money how they wish, but if they genuinely want to buy the best players in the world, then they should buy those players on their merits without providing an exemption for English footballers. The current trend is wrong imo; it's akin to the U12 sunday league manager picking his own son for the 'A' team and then playing him at right-back (regardless of whether that kid is even good enough to be picked).

One of the knock-on effects is that decent Irish/Scottish/Welsh players are forced to move down to lesser clubs in the Premier League, where the standard of football isn't as good. Alternatively, they get to spend time on the bench of a big club, which obviously isn't ideal either. Remember as well, the best players from Britain & Ireland have made the English Premier League what it is today. If all the Irish/Scottish/Welsh players stayed away from English football forty years ago, Leeds/Liverpool/Forest/United would hardly have enjoyed the succes they had in the following decades. And I think this is an important point because Ireland/Scotland/Wales/N Ireland are struggling at international level nowadays. Scotland, in particular, used to have a strong national side and used to routinely qualify for international tournaments; nowadays, however, they have been dragged down to the level of Lithuania....... has international football radically improved in recent years coupled with a deterioation in Scottish football? Yes, you could make a strong argument for these two factors, but at the end of the day Scotland don't have a Grame Souness playing midfield for Liverpool, or a Denis Law starting up front for Man United. Now, I'm not against foreigners playing in the Premier League (far from it), but if English clubs want to buy the best then they should, without giving English internationals a leg up.

They are essentially builiding a league around the England team when it should be the other way around imo. It could be argued that the English FA (if they are forcing clubs to prioritise English players) are in essence trying to buy success for the national team. A certain number of English players guaranteed a place with a big club to play alongside the best players in the world, which can only improve their ability. It's a win-win scenario for the FA.


And, in view of this recent trend, would the best Irish players be better off playing for big clubs on the Continent where they may have a better chance of playing at the top level for cultured footballing teams?

There was a good article on the recent transfer of Aiden McGeady to Spartak Moscow. In short, the author said that if McGeady had moved to a mid-table premier league club, like Birmingham City for example, nobody would have batted an eyelid, but because he moved to Moscow eyebrows were raised. An Irish international lining out for a mid-table/struggling EPL club is almost expected now, whereas long ago that same player would be wearing the red of Liverpool or United. Indeed, if McGeady were to swap Glasgow for Birmingham, he would most likely be fighting for mid-table mediocrity or avoiding the drop. For these types of clubs, football is more hoofball and partipation in European football is simply unattainable.

Instead, Aiden McGeady, a skilful and naturally talented winger, gets to ply his trade in the Champions League with a team who favour passing and possession over route one tactics. If McGeady settles in Russia, I think he could improve immensely as a player. Maybe more Irish players should consider a move abroad rather than languishing on the bench of a big-spending English club?

Ireland,NI,Scotland and Wales simply aren't producing players that can currently play at that top level the few that are Bale,Fletcher,o'shea,Evans are breaking through and they are doing so on merit Milner will sell a lot of jerseys and perhaps his industry simply suits Mancini's style of play I don't see any bias to be honest clubs put success before all else and they always will.

baldbear

I have the feeling that been English has meant Harte was GIVEN a good shot at been City's 1st choice. He is playing very well now so Shay should head in Jan!

The whole selling Dunne to balanced the books argument really confused me! Lescott is not nearly as good as Dunne.
But fools and there money are easily parted

As for Robbie, well he's playing bad and the other Spurs strikers deserve to be ahead of him.

Johnny Utah

everdead.ie wrote: »

Ireland,NI,Scotland and Wales simply aren't producing players that can currently play at that top level the few that are Bale,Fletcher,o'shea,Evans are breaking through and they are doing so on merit Milner will sell a lot of jerseys and perhaps his industry simply suits Mancini's style of play I don't see any bias to be honest clubs put success before all else and they always will.

But why aren't they producing players that can play at the top level anymore? They used to produce top class players and now they can't....

Plus, I genuinely do belive that there is a bias at the top English clubs...... look at the price tag of some English players (not just City players) and then tell me they are not overhyped/prioritised by the English game. Take Glen Johnson, for example, ridiculously overpriced and overrated imo, (like most of the English internationals).

everdead.ie

baldbear wrote: »

I have the feeling that been English has meant Harte was GIVEN a good shot at been City's 1st choice. He is playing very well now so Shay should head in Jan!

The whole selling Dunne to balanced the books argument really confused me! Lescott is not nearly as good as Dunne.
But fools and there money are easily parted

As for Robbie, well he's playing bad and the other Spurs strikers deserve to be ahead of him.

Robbie was actually brilliant in pre season and many people forget Lescott was coming off the back of a great season with everton where most people reckon now Jagilka made him look better then he is.

Pauleta

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Shay Given, a top class goalkeeper, is currently sitting on the bench at Man City as English keeper Joe Hart is number one choice right now with Mancini.

Why would Mancini care if he was Irish or English. Hart is in because he is the future in the opinion of Mancini

Likewise, Robbie Keane (a proven goalscorer at Premier League and international level) is on the bench at Spurs, behind both Defoe and Crouch. I don't rate Crouch too highly tbh and I think Robbie offers a lot more to Spurs in terms of link-up play between midfield and attack.

Keane shouldnt of brought his team out on the piss during an important stage during the season. He also shouldnt of whinged about it by crying off to boyhood club number 74. Crouch and Defoe got them into the champions league spots and Crouch and Defoes goals got them into the champions league proper.

Man City disposed of Richie Dunne, replacing him with English defender Joleon Lescott, and paid a hefty fee for the Everton defender in the process. Dunne was City's player of the season for a couple of years before he left.

Dunne had a shocking season the year he was sold. Mark Hughes had all the money on the world so why keep Dunne. Lescott didnt work out but if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Richard Dunne if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly. The answer is no, so why keep him there.

Mark Hughes was a clown with city imo. He kept buying bums.

Similarly, Stephen Ireland and James Milner swapped clubs recently, but the Englishman commanded a much higher transfer fee. Imo, Stephen Ireland and Milner have a similar enough level of ability, so I don't see the logic in why City were so desperate to replace Ireland with Milner at great expense. Stephen Ireland (before Mancini arrived anyway) was one of City's most promising young prospects and I think he was their best player in the season before last.

Ireland isnt good enough to start for a team that has unlimited funds so they traded him in for a player that possibly is good enough.

Players from Britain and Ireland have always had a long tradition of playing in the top flight of English football. They speak the language and usually settle in well to life in England. Johnny Giles was a central figure of the great Leeds United team, Aldridge/Whelan/Staunton etc played for a successful Liverpool side and more recently Roy Keane and Denis Irwin were mainstays of the all-conquering Man Utd team of the 90s. Nowadays, however, it seems that the top English clubs (either under instruction from the English FA or by their own choice) are giving a strong preference to English players.

In the 90s irish players were playing for the top premier league teams because the premier league was pants

Is this because the English FA are desperate for success on the international stage?

:pac: You conspiracy theorists crack me up

There was a good article on the recent transfer of Aiden McGeady to Spartak Moscow. In short, the author said that if McGeady had moved to a mid-table premier league club, like Birmingham City for example, nobody would have batted an eyelid, but because he moved to Moscow eyebrows were raised. An Irish international lining out for a mid-table/struggling EPL club is almost expected now, whereas long ago that same player would be wearing the red of Liverpool or United. Indeed, if McGeady were to swap Glasgow for Birmingham, he would most likely be fighting for mid-table mediocrity or avoiding the drop. For these types of clubs, football is more hoofball and partipation in European football is simply unattainable.

Instead, Aiden McGeady, a skilful and naturally talented winger, gets to ply his trade in the Champions League with a team who favour passing and possession over route one tactics. If McGeady settles in Russia, I think he could improve immensely as a player. Maybe more Irish players should consider a move abroad rather than languishing on the bench of a big-spending English club?

McGeady is pants

KungPao

It is frustrating, we could have had Dick Dunne as a league winner if he stayed with Man City.

Shay Given could have been at Arsenal or maybe even Man Utd a few years back before VDS, but was happy to stay at NC...and now a bench warmer at city.

Duffer was at Chelsea under Jose, now at Fulham.

Robbie stuck on the bench...

Doyler could have been at a big club.

Mcgeady, although not that good, probably could have have negotiated a move to a big English club a few years ago, when Celtic were doing well in the CL.

Maybe as the Republic Of Ireland slid horribly down the fifa rankings since 2004 or so, people started to doubt the quality of Irish players?...even though it wasn`t really their fault.

Coillte_Bhoy

Why on earth would clubs who by and large are owned by non English individuals and companies, who are largely managed by non English managers and whose squads comprise mainly non English players, why would they have a pro English bias over Irish players?

SantryRed

Pauleta wrote: »

Why would Mancini care if he was Irish or English. Hart is in because he is the future in the opinion of Mancini



Keane shouldnt of brought his team out on the piss during an important stage during the season. He also shouldnt of whinged about it by crying off to boyhood club number 74. Crouch and Defoe got them into the champions league spots and Crouch and Defoes goals got them into the champions league proper.



Dunne had a shocking season the year he was sold. Mark Hughes had all the money on the world so why keep Dunne. Lescott didnt work out but if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Richard Dunne if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly. The answer is no, so why keep him there.

Mark Hughes was a clown with city imo. He kept buying bums.



Ireland isnt good enough to start for a team that has unlimited funds so they traded him in for a player that possibly is good enough.



In the 90s irish players were playing for the top premier league teams because the premier league was pants



:pac: You conspiracy theorists crack me up



McGeady is pants

Top fcuking post.

ibh

Pauleta wrote: »

Why would Mancini care if he was Irish or English. Hart is in because he is the future in the opinion of Mancini

Mancini does care. He plays Harte and gets all the tabloids on side. Not saying Harte isn't good enough, I think him and Given are both excellent keepers but I do think that he may have considered the implications of blocking the progress of England's next great goalkeeper.

I think years ago Irish players should have started looking to other leagues instead of EPL. German, Dutch etc could have been a good outlet for talented players who are willing to put up with a culture change.
I think McGeady's move will be good for him. I'm not convinced that he is actually any good, but it will benefit him if he gets his head down and works on his game. His crossing and finishing need a lot of work.

Johnny Utah

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Why on earth would clubs who by and large are owned by non English individuals and companies, who are largely managed by non English managers and whose squads comprise mainly non English players, why would they have a pro English bias over Irish players?

Precisely my point.....

If these non-English companies, as you say, don't harbour any bias in favour of English players, then why are they willing to pay way over the odds for an English international when they can buy an equivalent Croatian/Irish/Turkish etc. player for half the price?

mike65

Its not a conspiracy and as for why England players are bing traded for silly money, I suspect its related to the whole "Team England" vibe. City could have spent less on Milners and Barrys position or even Adam Johnson by buying foreign but the side can now boast a number of England internationals (most of whom look like being a central part of the next gen side) and that looks good at home.

WesternZulu

I don't think that its so much a fact that Irish players are not rated and more to do with English players for the most part being overrated by the media over there.

jesus_thats_gre

Why wouldn't the English like to see England succeed on the international scene?

mike65

I suppose the other thing is the obvious thing, which Irish player/s are clearly at the top level? In the 80s you could pack a bus with them, now there isn't a single player who is top rank - including Given by the way. There are a decent number of second level players.

Johnny Utah

Pauleta wrote: »

Why would Mancini care if he was Irish or English. Hart is in because he is the future in the opinion of Mancini

Mancini cares because he wants to stay onside with the English media and keep his job. It'll be interesting to see when Hart goes through a bad patch, whether he is dropped, how quickly he is dropped, and how long before he regains his place in the City team.

Pauleta wrote: »

Keane shouldnt of brought his team out on the piss during an important stage during the season. He also shouldnt of whinged about it by crying off to boyhood club number 74. Crouch and Defoe got them into the champions league spots and Crouch and Defoes goals got them into the champions league proper.

Agree on first two lines, but Keane is still a top player and can still do a job at the highest level.

Re Crouch & Defoe: you could also say the same for Given/Dunne/Stephen Ireland etc in that they all performed well for their respective club team before they were dropped/sold.

Furthermore, it could also be argued that since Spurs are now in the CL, they should replace Crouch & Defoe with better players, thereby selling the them onto a club like Wolves or Hull. Don't think the English FA would like their first-choice strikers to be playing for Wolves........ :pac:

Pauleta wrote: »

Dunne had a shocking season the year he was sold. Mark Hughes had all the money on the world so why keep Dunne. Lescott didnt work out but if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Richard Dunne if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly. The answer is no, so why keep him there.

Mark Hughes was a clown with city imo. He kept buying bums.

That doesn't make any sense....

To use your logic: "if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Joleon Lescott if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly?"

And, as I said before Richie Dunne was Man City's 'player of the season' for a couple of years running. Hardly the first person that deserves to be booted out of the club.

Pauleta wrote: »

Ireland isnt good enough to start for a team that has unlimited funds so they traded him in for a player that possibly is good enough.

Ireland & Milner are similar enough in terms of ability and experience. Why were City so desperate to pay way over the odds for Milner in the swap. Even if Milner was slightly better than Ireland, there's no way he's worth that much more than Ireland. Stephen Ireland was sold for around £9m iirc, and I think that's a fair evaulation given his promising ability. Milner, I think, should be valued in or around the same amount. City could have bought Mesut Ozil for less than James Milner, ffs.

In any event, if City are a club of "unlimited funds", why didn't they just go out and buy a player way, way better than James Milner. Someone who would definitely play in their starting XI, not somebody who might possibly start.

Pauleta wrote: »

In the 90s irish players were playing for the top premier league teams because the premier league was pants

:rolleyes:

The Premier League was actually quite strong in the 90s. Certainly up there with the Italian/Spanish/German leagues. English clubs usually reached the latter stages of the Champions League.

Pauleta wrote: »

:pac: You conspiracy theorists crack me up

:pac:

Pauleta wrote: »

McGeady is pants

In your opinion.

Mister men

mike65 wrote: »

I suppose the other thing is the obvious thing, which Irish player/s are clearly at the top level? In the 80s you could pack a bus with them, now there isn't a single player who is top rank - including Given by the way. There are a decent number of second level players.

Imo Given,Dunne,Doyle,Duff and Keane are all top level players. How a top club have'nt signed Doyle up is beyond me. I've yet to see him put in an average performance for the green jersey.

Johnny Utah

Mister men wrote: »

Imo Given,Dunne,Doyle,Duff and Keane are all top level players. How a top club have'nt signed Doyle up is beyond me. I've yet to see him put in an average performance for the green jersey.

Well said. If Kevin Doyle was English, would he still be playing for Wolves?

Be honest.....

gustavo

Johnny Utah wrote: »

The Premier League was actually quite strong in the 90s. Certainly up there with the Italian/Spanish/German leagues. English clubs usually reached the latter stages of the Champions League.

I can only recall Manchester United sides from 97-99 having any real impact on the cL from England in the 90s

JPA

um, are you surprised English clubs give preferential treatment to English players? The fans are still English and like to see English players in their team where possible.

everdead.ie

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well said. If Kevin Doyle was English, would he still be playing for Wolves?

Be honest.....

RE Doyle spurs tried to sign him 2-3 years ago but they wouldn't sell him to us.

WesternZulu

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well said. If Kevin Doyle was English, would he still be playing for Wolves?

Be honest.....

Exactly, good point...you have Heskey, a similar type player to Doyle in many ways, there to win the ball, hold it up and be a thorn in the opposing defense.

Whereas Heskey at around abouts the same age as Doyle was playing for Liverpool, Doyle is at Wolves and for the most part not noticed outside the Irish media.
Even now Heskey is at Villa, who are in the top 6/7/8 in the league.


You also have Calton Cole (same type of striker) who last week was on the verge of joining Liverpool and who in my opinion is nowhere near as good as Doyle at what he does.

Now Doyle is nowhere near world class but he is a good player and i have np doubt that if he was English he would be at a more prestigious club than he is now.

mike65

Er Arsenal made inquiries early in the summer I believe, Wolves clearly didn't want to sell (short of a sillly money type offer) and he said he was happy at Wolves.

dreamers75

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/0904/gormanj.html



Could be worse for players.

Chucky the tree

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Mancini cares because he wants to stay onside with the English media and keep his job. It'll be interesting to see when Hart goes through a bad patch, whether he is dropped, how quickly he is dropped, and how long before he regains his place in the City team.

The English media won't help him keep his job. Results will.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Agree on first two lines, but Keane is still a top player and can still do a job at the highest level.

Re Crouch & Defoe: you could also say the same for Given/Dunne/Stephen Ireland etc in that they all performed well for their respective club team before they were dropped/sold.

Crouch scored a hat-trick against Young boys to get them into the CL, Defoe just scored a hat-trick last night. Keane missed an absolute sitter against Armenia. Hardly surprising he's struggling to get his game at spurs.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

To use your logic: "if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Joleon Lescott if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly?"

And, as I said before Richie Dunne was Man City's 'player of the season' for a couple of years running. Hardly the first person that deserves to be booted out of the club.

This is the only decision I think was wrong. Dunne is far better then Lescott. In saying that I'd still have sold Dunne but bought in a better replacement.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Ireland & Milner are similar enough in terms of ability and experience. Why were City so desperate to pay way over the odds for Milner in the swap. Even if Milner was slightly better than Ireland, there's no way he's worth that much more than Ireland. Stephen Ireland was sold for around £9m iirc, and I think that's a fair evaulation given his promising ability. Milner, I think, should be valued in or around the same amount. City could have bought Mesut Ozil for less than James Milner, ffs.

Milner is far more versatile though, and I don't think he's started a game for City in the centre yet so it's a poor comparison. Just because they were swapped for each other doesn't mean one is a direct replacement for the other.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

In any event, if City are a club of "unlimited funds", why didn't they just go out and buy a player way, way better than James Milner. Someone who would definitely play in their starting XI, not somebody who might possibly start.

Not ever player wants to play for City, just ask Kaka.

As I said, If I was Mancini/Redknapp I'd have done exactly the same as them so I don't agree it's some pro English agenda.

Mister men wrote: »

Imo Given,Dunne,Doyle,Duff and Keane are all top level players. How a top club have'nt signed Doyle up is beyond me. I've yet to see him put in an average performance for the green jersey.

You're seriously shocked as to why Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Spurs and Man United haven't signed Kevin Doyle?

Ian_K

WesternZulu wrote: »

Exactly, good point...you have Heskey, a similar type player to Doyle in many ways, there to win the ball, hold it up and be a thorn in the opposing defense.

Whereas Heskey at around abouts the same age as Doyle was playing for Liverpool, Doyle is at Wolves and for the most part not noticed outside the Irish media.
Even now Heskey is at Villa, who are in the top 6/7/8 in the league.


You also have Calton Cole (same type of striker) who last week was on the verge of joining Liverpool and who in my opinion is nowhere near as good as Doyle at what he does.

Now Doyle is nowhere near world class but he is a good player and i have np doubt that if he was English he would be at a more prestigious club than he is now.

Very good post - imo Doyle is twice the player Heskey ever was or Carlton Cole ever will be

Pauleta

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Mancini cares because he wants to stay onside with the English media and keep his job. It'll be interesting to see when Hart goes through a bad patch, whether he is dropped, how quickly he is dropped, and how long before he regains his place in the City team.

Another conspiracy theory. Sven and Mark Hughes were media darlings and were sacked. Sheikh Mansour is pretty oblivious to the English media. He doesnt go down the shop in Abu Dhabi to get The Sun and then back home for his daily fix of Sky Sports News. Also do you genuinely think that Roberto Mancini sat in his house one day with Brian Kidd and said "I will play Hart, to get the media onside." Brian Kidd: "Mwahaha, You evil genius". Seriously do really think that happened

Agree on first two lines, but Keane is still a top player and can still do a job at the highest level.

Indeed he probably can but not as good as a job as Crouch and Defoe did last season and are doing so far this season. It would be unfair to drop one of them who are performing well to put Robbie Keane in the team

Re Crouch & Defoe: you could also say the same for Given/Dunne/Stephen Ireland etc in that they all performed well for their respective club team before they were dropped/sold.

With the exception of Given. They were not doing a good job. Dunne and Ireland had poor seasons and they were dumped just like 17 other players at City this season and last.

Furthermore, it could also be argued that since Spurs are now in the CL, they should replace Crouch & Defoe with better players, thereby selling the them onto a club like Wolves or Hull. Don't think the English FA would like their first-choice strikers to be playing for Wolves........ :pac:

Why would Defoe and Crouch go the likes of Wolves or Hull. There would be a que of clubs after them

That doesn't make any sense....

To use your logic: "if you had unlimited transfer cash, would you go out to buy Joleon Lescott if you wanted to win the league and champions league instantly?"

No i wouldnt of bought Joleon Lescott but as i said Mark Hughes was buying bums. He didnt have a clue what to do with his unlimited transfer money

And, as I said before Richie Dunne was Man City's 'player of the season' for a couple of years running. Hardly the first person that deserves to be booted out of the club.

He wasnt the 1st person booted out of the club, he was the 9th that season and wasnt playing well the season before he was sold

Ireland & Milner are similar enough in terms of ability and experience. Why were City so desperate to pay way over the odds for Milner in the swap.
Even if Milner was slightly better than Ireland, there's no way he's worth that much more than Ireland. Stephen Ireland was sold for around £9m iirc, and I think that's a fair evaulation given his promising ability. Milner, I think, should be valued in or around the same amount. City could have bought Mesut Ozil for less than James Milner, ffs.

They were not desperate to pay over the odds. Its Man City, they have unlimited funds, clubs know this and therefore charge more. If Ozil went to City they probably would of been charged the same. I dont think Ozil would of went to City anyway. Surprisingly City have been having trouble attracting top players

In any event, if City are a club of "unlimited funds", why didn't they just go out and buy a player way, way better than James Milner. Someone who would definitely play in their starting XI, not somebody who might possibly start.

I dont know? ask Mancini. He wanted Milner for some reason.

:rolleyes:

The Premier League was actually quite strong in the 90s. Certainly up there with the Italian/Spanish/German leagues. English clubs usually reached the latter stages of the Champions League.

It wasnt really in fairness. Any decent foreign players that were going to England were using it as a retirement home. Man United were losing against the likes of Galatasary and Goteborg. I know that was a long time ago but now days Irish clubs beat Swedish teams in Europe.

parker kent

everdead.ie wrote: »

Ireland,NI,Scotland and Wales simply aren't producing players that can currently play at that top level the few that are Bale,Fletcher,o'shea,Evans are breaking through and they are doing so on merit Milner will sell a lot of jerseys and perhaps his industry simply suits Mancini's style of play I don't see any bias to be honest clubs put success before all else and they always will.

I would disagree with that view. The exceptional few break through, but it is much more difficult than it once was. There are a number of people who would improve immensely if they could get regular football at decent teams from a young age. They tend not to get that now for a multitude of reasons.

One is the influx of cheap foreigners in their mid 20s. These come as ready made players and is less risky for a team to play them as opposed to an untried teenager.

Then there is naturally a greater tendency to play English players as the league is English. Combining these issues means that the Irish, Scottish and Welsh are squeezed down the league or into the lower leagues. There are less places open for players at the top teams now. They often are farmed out on loan and spend their formative years playing hoofball in the lower leagues. By the time they are 22, it is too late for them.

I honestly feel that players of equal ability come through the youth systems but do not get a chance as clubs are not as willing to take a risk on a lot of younger players. English players that get loaned out have a greater chance of getting a higher profile as the media will be keen to improve the national team. This improves their chances of getting back to a better team (Joe Hart, Ben Foster etc).

If Irish players were willing to take a risk at a young age playing in Germany, Portugal, Holland etc, it would be much better for them as footballers.

gosplan

This is a load of me arse.

1: There's also far fewer English players playing at the top level these days.

2: Shea Given went to a moneyed up club who were always going to have two players for each position.

3: You can't attempt to make a rational argument and include Man City's revolving door in it. Bellamy was excellent for them last year and Robhino is obviously a very good player but everyone is easily replaceable to them.

4: Aldridge/Whelan/Staunton wouldn't get near a side challenging for the title these days.

parker kent

Chucky the tree wrote: »

You're seriously shocked as to why Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Spurs and Man United haven't signed Kevin Doyle?

Doyle is definitely good enough for one of those teams. If Heskey can play for Liverpool, why is Doyle not worth a shot? If Doyle were English, his career would be very different. Just look at some of the strikers signed by those teams and ask if Doyle is worse than they are.

Why can Man United feel free to spend as much on Bebe as Wolves did for Doyle? Or Ngog at Liverpool, how is he better than Doyle? Doyle is extremely good at what he does. He is not a top striker, but he would complement a Rooney or Torres very well. Arsenal would be much better with somebody like him too.

mike65

Some ****ing weird rationale here, Doyle cost Wolves 6.5 milion to lead the line as the main striker, N'Gog cost Liverpool 1.5 milion to play as a young back up in development.

parker kent

gosplan wrote: »

This is a load of me arse.

1: There's also far fewer English players playing at the top level these days.

2: Shea Given went to a moneyed up club who were always going to have two players for each position.

3: You can't attempt to make a rational argument and include Man City's revolving door in it. Bellamy was excellent for them last year and Robhino is obviously a very good player but everyone is easily replaceable to them.

4: Aldridge/Whelan/Staunton wouldn't get near a side challenging for the title these days.

1: Your first point sums up why Irish players are suffering in England. There are less places available and if a decision comes down to an English or Irish player of equal ability, the English player will be chosen.

2: If Shay Given were English, he would have had a move a long, long time ago. Look at circle jerks there have been over English keepers of average to extremely limited ability like Rob Green, Paul Robinson, Chris Kirkland etc.

3: Yes Man City are crazier than a bag of monkeys drinking Red Bull.

4: Point 4 is a load of crap.

parker kent

mike65 wrote: »

Some ****ing weird rationale here, Doyle cost Wolves 6.5 milion to lead the line as the main striker, N'Gog cost Liverpool 1.5 milion to play as a young back up in development.

Nice way to ignore my point. I specifically referred to Bebe when I mentioned transfer fees.

I was just referring to strikers who are considered good enough to play for top clubs. I chose a few who sprang to mind. It is not exactly rocket science.

I also mentioned Heskey, who cost Liverpool nearly double what Doyle cost. How come you didn't point out that?

mike65

parker kent wrote: »

Doyle is definitely good enough for one of those teams. If Heskey can play for Liverpool, why is Doyle not worth a shot? If Doyle were English, his career would be very different. Just look at some of the strikers signed by those teams and ask if Doyle is worse than they are.

Why can Man United feel free to spend as much on Bebe as Wolves did for Doyle? Or Ngog at Liverpool, how is he better than Doyle? Doyle is extremely good at what he does. He is not a top striker, but he would complement a Rooney or Torres very well. Arsenal would be much better with somebody like him too.

parker kent wrote: »

Nice way to ignore my point. I specifically referred to Bebe when I mentioned transfer fees.

I was just referring to strikers who are considered good enough to play for top clubs. I chose a few who sprang to mind. It is not exactly rocket science.

I also mentioned Heskey, who cost Liverpool nearly double what Doyle cost. How come you didn't point out that?

Why do I have refute every last item on your shopping list? If Doyle were to leave Wolves he'd be out of Liverpools price range (and possibly Man Utds its worth mentioning) Heskey? what about him? Heskey signed for Liverpool in 2000. Its 2010.

OPENROAD

mike65 wrote: »

Er Arsenal made inquiries early in the summer I believe, Wolves clearly didn't want to sell (short of a sillly money type offer) and he said he was happy at Wolves.

As far as I know we didn't, thing is with Doyle, if he was English, people would not be talking him up, don't get me wrong he is a good player but posters tend to hype up Irish players who are good.

As for Shay Given, could he not have taken a wage drop and moved to another club this summer?

MisterAnarchy

Pauleta wrote: »

In the 90s irish players were playing for the top premier league teams because the premier league was pants

I'm guessing that you are under 27 to come out with a ridiculous statement like that .
The reason the top Irish players were playing for top Premier league teams was because they were bloody good .

parker kent

mike65 wrote: »

Why do I have refute every last item on your shopping list? If Doyle were to leave Wolves he'd be out of Liverpools price range (and possibly Man Utds its worth mentioning) Heskey? what about him? Heskey signed for Liverpool in 2000. Its 2010.

Given your replies which seem to divert the topic to irrelevant points, I felt it necessary to point out that you were picking out some details I mentioned and ignoring most of my points. So I'd rather my points retained their context.

The post is in pretty simple English. It asks how is Ngog good enough for Liverpool, but not Doyle. Read the post I was responding to, it was saying that Doyle was not good enough for a top team. I picked out players at top teams that I feel Doyle is better than. It is not advanced calculus, it is a pretty easily understood point. I could have chosen other players or written out a definitive list of all current players at top 8 teams I feel he is better than. But that would be stupid as my point is pretty obvious.

Regarding Heskey, you know exactly why I am talking about him. Firstly, I think Doyle is a much, much better player. Heskey went to a top team for £11 million. Doyle did not. Even now, Heskey is still playing for a team that has Champions League ambitions. Doyle is not. If Heskey were Irish, he would probably still be at Leicester.

OPENROAD

parker kent wrote: »

Given your replies which seem to divert the topic to irrelevant points, I felt it necessary to point out that you were picking out some details I mentioned and ignoring most of my points. So I'd rather my points retained their context.

The post is in pretty simple English. It asks how is Ngog good enough for Liverpool, but not Doyle. Read the post I was responding to, it was saying that Doyle was not good enough for a top team. I picked out players at top teams that I feel Doyle is better than. It is not advanced calculus, it is a pretty easily understood point. I could have chosen other players or written out a definitive list of all current players at top 8 teams I feel he is better than. But that would be stupid as my point is pretty obvious.

Regarding Heskey, you know exactly why I am talking about him. Firstly, I think Doyle is a much, much better player. Heskey went to a top team for £11 million. Doyle did not. Even now, Heskey is still playing for a team that has Champions League ambitions. Doyle is not. If Heskey were Irish, he would probably still be at Leicester.

If Heskey was Irish and Doyle was English, would Doyle still be a much much better player?

mike65

Parker Kent I could give you my considered opinion of your condesending waffle but I don't want to get banned.

WesternZulu

OPENROAD wrote: »

As far as I know we didn't, thing is with Doyle, if he was English, people would not be talking him up, don't get me wrong he is a good player but posters tend to hype up Irish players who are good.

A for Shay Given, could he not have taken a wage drop and moved to another club this summer?

I think Doyle is loyal, maybe too loyal for his own good.

Look at the way he stayed at reading when they went down and even now with Wolves I'm not sure if a bigger club genuinely went for him that he would leave.

There was talk (probably just paper talk) that Juve were interested in him last season I think....now, for Doyle that would be a perfect move! Serie A would suit him down to the ground! He would do really well there.

I don't think that Irish players are over hyped by the Irish, it might seem like that because most are not really rated at all by the media across the water, that when they are praised by fans here it is almost as if it is not deserved as we do not hear Sky Sports dishing out commplements to any of our players on a regular basis. Players like Doyle are genuine good players and anybody who watches Ireland games cannot but be impressed with him. His work rate if nothing else is brilliant!

Irish players should look to more than the EPL as the place to go. Look at Lawerence, now at Portsmouth...why did't he look into playing at a decent german/French/Dutch/Italian club than drop down a division to the sinking ship that is Portsmouth.

Fair play to McGeady and Sherdian to looking further afield than England when moving clubs. I wish more Irish did the same.

parker kent

OPENROAD wrote: »

If Heskey was Irish and Doyle was English, would Doyle still be a much much better player?

Yes of course. The same way Rooney is a much, much better player than Doyle. Or how Gerrard is much better than Whelan, Gibson or Andrews. Where they are from makes no difference. Whether they are actually any good makes the difference.

OPENROAD

WesternZulu wrote: »

I think Doyle is loyal, maybe too loyal for his own good.

Look at the way he stayed at reading when they went down and even now with Wolves I'm not sure if a bigger club genuinely went for him that he would leave.

There was talk (probably just paper talk) that Juve were interested in him last season I think....now, for Doyle that would be a perfect move! Serie A would suit him down to the ground! He would do really well there.

I don't think that Irish players are over hyped by the Irish, it might seem like that because most are not really rated at all by the media across the water but players like Doyle are genuine good players and anybody who watches Ireland games cannot but be impressed with him. His work rate if nothing else is brilliant!

Irish players should look to more than the EPL as the place to go. Look at Lawerence, now at Portsmouth...why did't he look into playing at a decent german/French/Dutch/Italian club the drop down a division to the sinking ship that is Portsmouth.

Fair play to McGeady and Sherdian to looking further afield than England when moving clubs. I wish more Irish did the same.

I am assuming you are Irish and an Ireland supporter and as such might not see it, but if you listen to Irish football shows on the radio, listen to the pundits that tell it like it is, in general they do big up Irish players and the Irish international team, anyone remember the Ireland/Brazil international friendly at the Emirates and the half time analysis??

Have to say I disagree with regards Irish players not being rated by English players, I think we have maybe three very very good players at the present time such as Given, Dunne then you have players who are very good pros and can add a great deal to a mid table team such as Duff( has been excellent at Fulham).

I would probably agree with you re Doyle and being over loyal, he comes across as a really nice bloke from interviews and maybe he is being loyal or maybe lacking ambition, I don't think he is as good as people make him out to be (I do think its because he is Irish) but I do think he can definitely do better than Wolves.

mike65

It'll be interesting to see what happens to Doyle come the summer (or January if it all goes very pear-shaped!), if Wolves have a progressive season and seem to heading in the right direction (esp with the stadium development happening in tandem)
he might just stick around. If he has a good season but decides to move on who will come for him?

Chucky the tree

parker kent wrote: »

Doyle is definitely good enough for one of those teams. If Heskey can play for Liverpool, why is Doyle not worth a shot? If Doyle were English, his career would be very different. Just look at some of the strikers signed by those teams and ask if Doyle is worse than they are.

Why can Man United feel free to spend as much on Bebe as Wolves did for Doyle? Or Ngog at Liverpool, how is he better than Doyle? Doyle is extremely good at what he does. He is not a top striker, but he would complement a Rooney or Torres very well. Arsenal would be much better with somebody like him too.

Mainly because Heskey wasn't very good at Liverpool so once bitten. Doyle at £6.5m is worse then every striker in a similiar price range I can think of. Name a striker he's better then?

As Mike pointed out, Ngog for £1.5m or Doyle for £6.5m, give me Ngog any day of the week. Lol, yes I'm Doyle is the player they lack because otherwise they'd win the lack. :pac: Compliment a Rooney or Torres very well? United and Liverpool don't play hoof ball so he'd be fairly muck.

parker kent wrote: »

Given your replies which seem to divert the topic to irrelevant points, I felt it necessary to point out that you were picking out some details I mentioned and ignoring most of my points. So I'd rather my points retained their context.

The post is in pretty simple English. It asks how is Ngog good enough for Liverpool, but not Doyle. Read the post I was responding to, it was saying that Doyle was not good enough for a top team. I picked out players at top teams that I feel Doyle is better than. It is not advanced calculus, it is a pretty easily understood point. I could have chosen other players or written out a definitive list of all current players at top 8 teams I feel he is better than. But that would be stupid as my point is pretty obvious.

Regarding Heskey, you know exactly why I am talking about him. Firstly, I think Doyle is a much, much better player. Heskey went to a top team for £11 million. Doyle did not. Even now, Heskey is still playing for a team that has Champions League ambitions. Doyle is not. If Heskey were Irish, he would probably still be at Leicester.

Read my post again, I asked was he really shocked Doyle isn't at a top club. Considering he'd cost £6.5m plus then it should be fairly obvious why he isn't. Players like Ngog represent far better value. I'd love to see that list actually, if you have time because I can't think of who he'd be better then at £6.5m+.

parker kent

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Mainly because Heskey wasn't very good at Liverpool so once bitten. Doyle at £6.5m is worse then every striker in a similiar price range I can think of. Name a striker he's better then?

As Mike pointed out, Ngog for £1.5m or Doyle for £6.5m, give me Ngog any day of the week. Lol, yes I'm Doyle is the player they lack because otherwise they'd win the lack. :pac: Compliment a Rooney or Torres very well? United and Liverpool don't play hoof ball so he'd be fairly muck.

Read my post again, I asked was he really shocked Doyle isn't at a top club. Considering he'd cost £6.5m plus then it should be fairly obvious why he isn't. Players like Ngog represent far better value. I'd love to see that list actually, if you have time because I can't think of who he'd be better then at £6.5m+.

As I said in my original post, United paid more for Bebe than Wolves did for Doyle. When you consider the fees associated with Carlton Cole, Doyle represents good value.

Doyle is not just about hoofing the ball. He has a decent touch. Plus holding the ball up and putting in lot of work is important for any team. Work rate is a huge part of the appeal of Carlos Tevez. Doyle has that, but obviously is not as good a player.

Torres would benefit from having somebody to do the donkey work, somebody to hold the ball up, keep defenders occupied and create space. Plus he'll chip in with a decent tally of goals. I'm not saying he is Pele and Maradona combined into one man, just that he could play a decent role.

There are definitely worse players being bought for the fees associated with Doyle.

WesternZulu

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd love to see that list actually, if you have time because I can't think of who he'd be better then at £6.5m+.

Just from the top of my head, £8 from stoke for kenwyne jones.

Doyle is a better player than Jones.

Gonzovision

Nothing to do with nationality in my opinion, just the quality of the player.

Chucky the tree

parker kent wrote: »

As I said in my original post, United paid more for Bebe than Wolves did for Doyle. When you consider the fees associated with Carlton Cole, Doyle represents good value.

Doyle is not just about hoofing the ball. He has a decent touch. Plus holding the ball up and putting in lot of work is important for any team. Work rate is a huge part of the appeal of Carlos Tevez. Doyle has that, but obviously is not as good a player.

Torres would benefit from having somebody to do the donkey work, somebody to hold the ball up, keep defenders occupied and create space. Plus he'll chip in with a decent tally of goals. I'm not saying he is Pele and Maradona combined into one man, just that he could play a decent role.

There are definitely worse players being bought for the fees associated with Doyle.

Bebe just turned 20, Doyle is just about to turn 27. Pretty sure Bebe wasn't bought to start straight away. Very poor comparison. Doyle has only really played in teams who play hoof ball. He's got a decent touch for his level, but it's no where near good enough for top premiership sides.

Torres has scored 57 goals in 82 games, I don't think having Kevin Doyle beside him would be any benefit, I'd even say a hindarance actually. He's never played with another striker and it's clear from his strike rate nothing needs to be changed.

WesternZulu wrote: »

Just from the top of my head, £8 from stoke for kenwyne jones.

Doyle is a better player than Jones.

Stoke are a top 8 side now? :pac:

JPA

Ian_K wrote: »

Very good post - imo Doyle is twice the player Heskey ever was or Carlton Cole ever will be

Despite the criticism he gets, for a period of time Heskey was a very good player including a season scoring 20 plus goals for Liverpool in a season.
I like Doyle but he's never done that in his career.

dreamers75

JPA wrote: »

Despite the criticism he gets, for a period of time Heskey was a very good player including a season scoring 20 plus goals for Liverpool in a season.
I like Doyle but he's never done that in his career.

****load of assists tho, imo hes the best CF we have ever had.

His workrate is only apreciated by people at game, constantly making runs and holding up the ball, it always sticks with him.