Are Irish players getting a raw deal by playing in England?

Ian_K · 04-09-2010 11:54pm

JPA wrote: »

Despite the criticism he gets, for a period of time Heskey was a very good player including a season scoring 20 plus goals for Liverpool in a season.
I like Doyle but he's never done that in his career.

He's never played for a top quality side though - That was a treble winning Liverpool side wasnt it? Put Doyle in a side like that and he'd get you close to 20 a season too

JPA · 05-09-2010 12:43am

So Doyle is just unlucky that no top club has ever signed him?

Ian_K · 05-09-2010 12:54am

JPA wrote: »

So Doyle is just unlucky that no top club has ever signed him?

Its not because he's unlucky - it's because he's irish

That's the moral of the story kids

SantryRed · 05-09-2010 1:03am

This is a ridiculous thread. Absolute bullsh1t being spouted in it. Irish player are not getting any raw deal. Being Irish has nothing to do with it.

MisterAnarchy · 05-09-2010 1:15am

parker kent wrote: »

Doyle is not just about hoofing the ball. He has a decent touch. Plus holding the ball up and putting in lot of work is important for any team. Work rate is a huge part of the appeal of Carlos Tevez. Doyle has that, but obviously is not as good a player.

Doyle is a good grafter and decent player but he has zero pace ,he is like a tank ,and he doesnt get into enough goalscoring positions,he seems content to just hold the ball up and lay it off to other players.

Optimalprimerib · 05-09-2010 9:07am

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well said. If Kevin Doyle was English, would he still be playing for Wolves?

Be honest.....

He is pretty similar to kevin davies, who plays for bolton, with no english caps, so yes.

I think doyle is a good player but still lacks a goal scoring touch to his game.

I think keane is getting a harder time than he deserves. I thought he was excellent against armenia and the 2 chances he missed were much tougher than the critics make out. He will at some point get his chance with spurs this season and prove himself.

parker kent · 05-09-2010 10:45am

SantryRed wrote: »

This is a ridiculous thread. Absolute bullsh1t being spouted in it. Irish player are not getting any raw deal. Being Irish has nothing to do with it.

I still stand by my original post in this thread before I got side tracked by the Kevin Doyle stuff. All young players from Britain and Ireland get a raw deal as it is much easier to buy a complete player from abroad than nurture a young player. English players will have a better chance of getting through than the other countries for obvious reasons. Good players are slipping through the net in England from all 5 countries in these islands.

Given that England is Ireland's main source of young players, you could argue that they are getting a raw deal. There are now fewer spaces at the top teams. That does not mean that I am saying they are not being picked because they are Irish, it means they are being ignored as it is less risky to buy a player at 25 who comes ready made for the first team.

parker kent · 05-09-2010 10:52am

JPA wrote: »

Despite the criticism he gets, for a period of time Heskey was a very good player including a season scoring 20 plus goals for Liverpool in a season.
I like Doyle but he's never done that in his career.

Doyle got 18 in 2008/09 in 42 games for Reading. Surely at a top team he would add more?

JPA · 05-09-2010 11:21am

parker kent wrote: »

Doyle got 18 in 2008/09 in 42 games for Reading. Surely at a top team he would add more?

Well that was in the Championship.

gustavo · 05-09-2010 12:13pm

Ian_K wrote: »

Its not because he's unlucky - it's because he's irish

That's the moral of the story kids

I can't believe people honestly believe that

Ian_K · 05-09-2010 1:27pm

gustavo wrote: »

I can't believe people honestly believe that

I never said i believed it, but that is basically the point being made in this thread

parker kent · 05-09-2010 2:16pm

JPA wrote: »

Well that was in the Championship.

13 in the Premiership in his first season, not too bad given his circumstances. Anyway, there is more to a forward than goals. He is not a natural goal scorer and never will be but he has plenty of other attributes which would be useful for a top 6 team. He would make a great foil for some strikers.

My earlier points also refer to him being good enough for a top team, but that team does not necessarily have to be in England. Irish players should try to get moves to teams challenging for honours. If the likes of Kezman or Voronin (or any other similarly talented player before people come in with lines about him going to Liverpool in a free) can make a living playing for top teams, then Doyle can too.

astrofool · 05-09-2010 2:39pm

Voronin was a punt on a free, Kezman was expected to be an out and out goal scorer. doyle has done nothing in his career to indicate he would make it at a top 8 team, he's about his level at the moment.

And is your point, seriously, that because top teams have at some stage bought or used players worse than Doyle, that Doyle should be in a top team?

JPA · 05-09-2010 2:43pm

parker kent wrote: »

13 in the Premiership in his first season, not too bad given his circumstances. Anyway, there is more to a forward than goals. He is not a natural goal scorer and never will be but he has plenty of other attributes which would be useful for a top 6 team. He would make a great foil for some strikers.

My earlier points also refer to him being good enough for a top team, but that team does not necessarily have to be in England. Irish players should try to get moves to teams challenging for honours. If the likes of Kezman or Voronin (or any other similarly talented player before people come in with lines about him going to Liverpool in a free) can make a living playing for top teams, then Doyle can too.

I made a post responding to a poster saying Doyle is better than Heskey ever was, which is obviously not true.

Carlos_Ray · 05-09-2010 2:53pm

I'm not to sure players are at a disadvantage for being Irish. I think its more to do with "not being English." For me that is totally natural, it is the English league after all. A lot of Irish football fans seem to forget that.

English players will naturally be hyped in their own country. This hype in turn increases their value and desirability. Wenger ( and even Ferguson) have openly commented on this fact. Bear in mind, the same happens in Italy and Spain in relation to their players.

My issue is not with the English hyping their players, my issue is with the Irish who totally underate their own players. Kevin Doyle is a prime example.
Doyle is a top class footballer and has been for a number of years. Yet a lot of Irish "football fans" persist in talking him down. Anyone who watches Doyle on a regular basis ( whole matches, not just premier league highlights) will get an insight into how good he really is.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2010 3:38pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

The Premier League was actually quite strong in the 90s. Certainly up there with the Italian/Spanish/German leagues. English clubs usually reached the latter stages of the Champions League.

Nope.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2010 3:48pm

Thing is lads, Carlton Cole hasn't been bought by a top team. He's at West Ham. Zamora is at Fulham. The top six / seven clubs are showing that they also disagree with the valuation placed on those players by the media machine.

I personally think Doyle is a better player than Cole, but I reckon Kevin Davies does that role better than any of Doyle, Cole or Zamora. All four are unquestioned starters for lower mid table outfits. They are absolutely vital to their clubs and consequently wouldn't go for particularly great value if a top six squad wanted to take a punt on them.

IF Liverpool had bought Cole or Zamora for £9m and passed on Doyle for £6m (ridiculous hypothetical but whatever) then this thing would have legs.

dsmythy · 05-09-2010 5:24pm

Why aren't Irish message board contributors being snapped as chief scouts of top clubs. It's because they're Irish clearly! :P

applehunter · 05-09-2010 6:18pm

Doyle is a bit of a late developer by modern football standards.

Most people would have great admiration for him. So often he is given the thankless task of leading the line by himself.

I would have no doubts about him playing in any team at the top end of the English league. He has a great attitude and is a gifted footballer. All this natural finisher stuff is guff. Give him the ball in the box and he will stick it away as well as anybody else.

IMO:pac:

Johnny Utah · 05-09-2010 8:23pm

Ian_K wrote: »

Its not because he's unlucky - it's because he's irish

That's the moral of the story kids

gustavo wrote: »

I can't believe people honestly believe that

Ian_K wrote: »

I never said i believed it, but that is basically the point being made in this thread

SantryRed wrote: »

This is a ridiculous thread. Absolute bullsh1t being spouted in it. Irish player are not getting any raw deal. Being Irish has nothing to do with it.

dsmythy wrote: »

Why aren't Irish message board contributors being snapped as chief scouts of top clubs. It's because they're Irish clearly! :P

I think some posters simply looked at the thread title, without reading the opening post, before offering an opinion......

If you carefully read the op, you will see that I refer to the decline in Scottish, Welsh and Irish footballers playing for the top clubs in England. In other words, the question asked in the thread title or the central thesis of my opening post could equally be approached from a Scottish or Welsh viewpoint. I focused on the Irish players currently in the Premiership simply because I have more interest in the Irish team.

Nevertheless, I think it's quite clear that the national teams of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/and Northern Ireland have declined in the last decade. Scotland used to routinely qualify for international tournaments and even Northern Ireland qualified for the 82 & 86 World Cups. Meanwhile, the English national team have improved significantly over recent qualifying campaigns. Look back to the 80s/90s; the English team either weren't qualifying for tournaments or were making hard work of it. They certainly weren't thumping the second seeds in their qualifying group 4-nil or 5-nil as evident in recent seasons. The decline of Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland is almost in direct correlation to the improvement in England's performances. Is this a coincidence or is it because England are producing better players?

If you believe the answer is the latter, then why are England producing better players?

Is it right that the big Premiership clubs are giving preference to English players (if you believe that to be the case)?

Chucky the tree · 05-09-2010 9:02pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

If you carefully read the op, you will see that I refer to the decline in Scottish, Welsh and Irish footballers playing for the top clubs in England. In other words, the question asked in the thread title or the central thesis of my opening post could equally be approached from a Scottish or Welsh viewpoint. I focused on the Irish players currently in the Premiership simply because I have more interest in the Irish team.

Nevertheless, I think it's quite clear that the national teams of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/and Northern Ireland have declined in the last decade. Scotland used to routinely qualify for international tournaments and even Northern Ireland qualified for the 82 & 86 World Cups. Meanwhile, the English national team have improved significantly over recent qualifying campaigns. Look back to the 80s/90s; the English team either weren't qualifying for tournaments or were making hard work of it. They certainly weren't thumping the second seeds in their qualifying group 4-nil or 5-nil as evident in recent seasons. The decline of Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland is almost in direct correlation to the improvement in England's performances. Is this a coincidence or is it because England are producing better players?

If you believe the answer is the latter, then why are England producing better players?

Is it right that the big Premiership clubs are giving preference to English players (if you believe that to be the case)?

Most of your information is wrong. England either weren't qualifying or doing well in the 80s and 90s? No idea where you get that idea. They qualified for all the WC's held in the 80s and the only WC they didn't qualify for in the 90s was USA '94. In the 86 WC they reached the QF's and lost to the winners Argentina. In 1990 they lost in the semi's to eventual winners Germany. They haven't reached a semi-final since so again saying England have improved since the 80s/90s is very debatable. In the Euros the only time in the 80's and 90s they didn't qualify was once 84.

While Scotland did quailfy for all world cups from 74-1990 they have never once in their history made it past the group stages. Their euro champions record is loltastic. Only qualified for 2 of the 13 European champions(1992 and 1996).

Northern IReland as you say made 2 world cups in the 80's, 19982 and 1986. However it's more likely they just hit a good patch with palyers considering previous to that they didn't qualify until 1958 and haven't qualified since. Also the fact they've never qualified for the Euopean championships would back this up.

As for us, we first qualified in the 1990's and got our best result. Since then we've made it in '94 and '02. European champions we've only qualifed in '64 and '88.

Seems fairly clear to me that us, Scotland, N.I and Wales have always been ****e barring a few golden years. I think the break-up of Soviet Union and the start of the European Union is a much bigger cause for Irish, Scottish etc players struggling.

ziggy · 06-09-2010 10:03am

This post has been deleted.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-09-2010 2:38pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

As for us, we first qualified in the 1990's and got our best result. Since then we've made it in '94 and '02. European champions we've only qualifed in '64 and '58.

We only qualified for The Euros in 1988

everdead.ie · 06-09-2010 2:53pm

I thought the best English team was the 86 team they were at their pinnacle then IMO the 80's and 90's were pretty good for Scotland/Ireland mostly due to a glut if very talented players now kids are taught to kick the ball up the pitch and not play football properly leading to a poorer standard of playing because this hoofball is deemed their only chance of success which is disappointing.

anonymous_joe · 06-09-2010 3:01pm

I think it's worth pointing out a fairly major shift in English football before anyone cries foul.

Prior to the Bosman ruling, only 3 foreigners were allowed in your side. As Scots, Welsh and Norn Irish are from the UK, they're not foreigners. Irish players, meanwhile, weren't treated as foreigners either. (Presumably because of the various free trade/movement agreements)

In a Premier League with no foreigners allowed, Irish excepted, the vast majority of our side would be in Premiership sides, with the best of them in the best sides.

However, of our best players, Given is as good as but no better than the likes of Hart, Reina, Van Der Saar, Schwarzer, etc. Keane is no better than Defoe and Crouch, to use two examples, Duff isn't better than Nani, Malouda or Arshavin, etc.

Plenty of English players who would have been in top four sides ten or twenty years ago aren't these days because of better and better value foreign imports, just like the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish. There's no conspiracy, merely access to a larger pool of workers, and inevitably, some of them are better than our lads.

astrofool · 06-09-2010 4:32pm

Irish player's were treated as foreigners.

me-skywalker · 06-09-2010 4:46pm

Robbie Keane does offer alot in link-up between Midfield and attack but thats not what Spurs need tehy have Modric, Krancjar, Lennon and no Van Der Vaart for that Harry wants further aggression and domination up the field and Crouch and Defoe give you that with Crouch's height and hold-up play while Defoe can strech a defence with running off the shoulder.

Stephen Ireland Isnt Irish.

Hart will be better than Given was once he reaches his full potential.

McGeady as you put it didnt go to a mid table struggling team in the EPL but yet he went to a mid table team in the Russian league, but is now gettign paid more money.

Only O'Shea and Duff have actually won a Premiership medal. The point this alludes to is that the actual level of talent and ability in Irish players in diminishing into midcarders and not sought after as much as we would like to think.

We are economical at turning out talented players and even O'Shea has had his biggest battles to overcome and I know some people that still dont rate him at all.

We just have to be more realistic and face the truth that we dont have that talent there at the moment. Hopefully we will have some more coming through I seen an article in the Sunday World nad it had about 10 Irish youngsters who are in Premiership teams and ready to step up to the plate Cunnihgham, Coleman, Duffy, Gibson, Mc Carthy etc

Johnny Utah · 15-09-2010 6:14pm

Bad mistake by Joe Hart at the weekend....

Pepe LeFrits · 15-09-2010 6:28pm

The new squad rules in the PL further incentivise clubs to ditch foreign players in favour of English ones. Using specific cases to argue it one way or the other is a waste of time. Some Englishmen will replace foreigners on merit, some will do it because of their nationality. It's nothing to do with being Irish.

Dempsey · 15-09-2010 6:33pm

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The new squad rules in the PL further incentivise clubs to ditch foreign players in favour of English ones. Using specific cases to argue it one way or the other is a waste of time. Some Englishmen will replace foreigners on merit, some will do it because of their nationality. It's nothing to do with being Irish.

Most Irish players go through English academies so they'll be on equal footing with the English players when it comes to the squad rules

Johnny Utah · 16-09-2010 9:03pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Bad mistake by Joe Hart at the weekend....

And surprise, surprise, young Hart still plays tonight for City....... Mancini must have forgotten about his mistake at the weekend!

CSF · 16-09-2010 9:23pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And surprise, surprise, young Hart still plays tonight for City....... Mancini must have forgotten about his mistake at the weekend!

Or just not judged a keeper who has been exceptional so far this season on 1 error, either explanation is good.

event · 16-09-2010 10:14pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And surprise, surprise, young Hart still plays tonight for City....... Mancini must have forgotten about his mistake at the weekend!

are you genuinely for real?

is this a wind up!

do you think the english FA puts pressure on clubs to play English players ahead of scottish/irish/welsh players?

adox · 16-09-2010 10:56pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And surprise, surprise, young Hart still plays tonight for City....... Mancini must have forgotten about his mistake at the weekend!

Well that proves the whole conspiracy doesn't it?

I thought these bizarre threads may have stopped once the season started but obviously not.

Johnny Utah · 17-09-2010 12:27am

event wrote: »

are you genuinely for real?

is this a wind up!

do you think the english FA puts pressure on clubs to play English players ahead of scottish/irish/welsh players?

No wind up pal. :cool:

west101 · 17-09-2010 12:53am

event wrote: »

are you genuinely for real?

is this a wind up!

do you think the english FA puts pressure on clubs to play English players ahead of scottish/irish/welsh players?

Not the FA, but the fans and media certainly do.

OPENROAD · 17-09-2010 1:45am

Dempsey wrote: »

Most Irish players go through English academies so they'll be on equal footing with the English players when it comes to the squad rules

Kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing imo

GavRedKing · 17-09-2010 10:23am

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And surprise, surprise, young Hart still plays tonight for City....... Mancini must have forgotten about his mistake at the weekend!

Id have Hart play over Given everyday of the week, Hart is a brillant keeper and still only what, 23?

At this stage of his career he is better then what Given was at the same age. One mistake doesnt make him a bad keeper, Mancini is going with what he feels is the better option, and that is Hart, hes taller and a lot more commandiong of his box with crosses.

Shay has been fantastic for us over the years, but at City he has better competition and the competition is winning.

Dempsey · 17-09-2010 10:54am

OPENROAD wrote: »

Kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing imo

Whats the purpose of the whole thing?

The changes made were to encourage clubs to use their academies and youth structures more instead of just buying in foreigners to make up a decent squad.

The English FA has just adopted the exact same rules of the UEFA Competitions. UEFA did all the legal research and in European Law, thats as far as they can push it.

Third_Echelon · 17-09-2010 11:37am

me-skywalker wrote: »

Robbie Keane does offer alot in link-up between Midfield and attack but thats not what Spurs need tehy have Modric, Krancjar, Lennon and no Van Der Vaart for that Harry wants further aggression and domination up the field and Crouch and Defoe give you that with Crouch's height and hold-up play while Defoe can strech a defence with running off the shoulder.

Stephen Ireland Isnt Irish.

Hart will be better than Given was once he reaches his full potential.

McGeady as you put it didnt go to a mid table struggling team in the EPL but yet he went to a mid table team in the Russian league, but is now gettign paid more money.

Only O'Shea and Duff have actually won a Premiership medal. The point this alludes to is that the actual level of talent and ability in Irish players in diminishing into midcarders and not sought after as much as we would like to think.

We are economical at turning out talented players and even O'Shea has had his biggest battles to overcome and I know some people that still dont rate him at all.

We just have to be more realistic and face the truth that we dont have that talent there at the moment. Hopefully we will have some more coming through I seen an article in the Sunday World nad it had about 10 Irish youngsters who are in Premiership teams and ready to step up to the plate Cunnihgham, Coleman, Duffy, Gibson, Mc Carthy etc

I'm pretty sure Roy Keane won a few in his time

(unless you are talking about players that are still playing)

It has always been a thing that has bothered me about Irish players. If they don't make it in England (young players), they end up coming home and giving up football or playing in the LOI or lower divisions in England. They think that England is the only place where football is played... Just because other countries don't speak English, they don't even bother, when in fact there are lots of clubs throughout Europe at a pretty high level where they could make a successful career. English young players are quite guilty of this as well.

Glenn Hoddle has an academy where he takes young players who are let go from the big teams in England (Premier League, Championship clubs etc) and brings them over to his academy in Spain. Teams from that area, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, France etc then come and pick them up and offer them a very good opportunity to make it.

With regards to our Senior International players, every one of them could step into La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 no problem and play with their top clubs... and they don't do it enough. Ian Harte is really the only one in recent memory that spent any amount of time abroad (3 years with Levante in La Liga).. and now McGeady. Fair play to him for taking on the challenge. I think he will be a better player for it...

Shay Given, Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle etc could quite easily slot into a Marseille, Juventus, Lazio, Roma, Bayern, Shalke, Dortmund, Valencia no problem. They just need to have the ambition and balls to go for it...

GavRedKing · 17-09-2010 11:42am

me-skywalker wrote: »

Robbie Keane does offer alot in link-up between Midfield and attack but thats not what Spurs need tehy have Modric, Krancjar, Lennon and no Van Der Vaart for that Harry wants further aggression and domination up the field and Crouch and Defoe give you that with Crouch's height and hold-up play while Defoe can strech a defence with running off the shoulder.

Stephen Ireland Isnt Irish.

Hart will be better than Given was once he reaches his full potential.

McGeady as you put it didnt go to a mid table struggling team in the EPL but yet he went to a mid table team in the Russian league, but is now gettign paid more money.

Only O'Shea and Duff have actually won a Premiership medal. The point this alludes to is that the actual level of talent and ability in Irish players in diminishing into midcarders and not sought after as much as we would like to think.

We are economical at turning out talented players and even O'Shea has had his biggest battles to overcome and I know some people that still dont rate him at all.

We just have to be more realistic and face the truth that we dont have that talent there at the moment. Hopefully we will have some more coming through I seen an article in the Sunday World nad it had about 10 Irish youngsters who are in Premiership teams and ready to step up to the plate Cunnihgham, Coleman, Duffy, Gibson, Mc Carthy etc

Ehhhhh....

Stephen Ireland Isnt Irish.

But.........

Gibson, Mc Carthy

LuckyLloyd · 17-09-2010 12:14pm

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Roy Keane won a few in his time (unless you are talking about players that are still playing)

It has always been a thing that has bothered me about Irish players. If they don't make it in England (young players), they end up coming home and giving up football or playing in the LOI or lower divisions in England. They think that England is the only place where football is played... Just because other countries don't speak English, they don't even bother, when in fact there are lots of clubs throughout Europe at a pretty high level where they could make a successful career. English young players are quite guilty of this as well.

Glenn Hoddle has an academy where he takes young players who are let go from the big teams in England (Premier League, Championship clubs etc) and brings them over to his academy in Spain. Teams from that area, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, France etc then come and pick them up and offer them a very good opportunity to make it.

With regards to our Senior International players, every one of them could step into La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 no problem and play with their top clubs... and they don't do it enough. Ian Harte is really the only one in recent memory that spent any amount of time abroad (3 years with Levante in La Liga).. and now McGeady. Fair play to him for taking on the challenge. I think he will be a better player for it...

Shay Given, Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle etc could quite easily slot into a Marseille, Juventus, Lazio, Roma, Bayern, Shalke, Dortmund, Valencia no problem. They just need to have the ambition and balls to go for it...

Good post. It doesn't even have to be a foreign language - give the US or Australian pro leagues a shot. You think of some of the nationalities that have appeared in the LOI over the years - and then the lengths to which regular Irish people will travel to find employment and there might be a small kernel of truth to the above.

Are Irish players getting a raw deal by playing in England?

Comments