the Poppy

LordSutch

Jonah42 wrote: »

What football teams didn't do it last year?

I'm guessing Derry City, and/or Glasgow Celtic ?

Chairman Meow

The poppy is a commemoration of all soldiers who died in WW1 not just british. It was possibly the most horrific war ever seen and cost millions of lives, devastated europe, and involved soldiers from all over the world, not just british, and even included my own great grandfather. Id wear one and wouldnt feel any guilt or shame. Those men of all nations fought and died for freedom in some of the most nightmarish conditions ever witnessed by man. Some of you might want to try reading a history book before jumping on the 'omg its a symbol of british oppression' bandwagon.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins, it is quite irrelevant what it meant in the beginning. Fact is that meaning has changed. Nowadays the poppy is not just for the BA men who died in WW1. It simply is not. It is a political symbol. It honors the actions of BA men since WW1. Just watch any armistice day programs or BBC news bulletins. You will hear lots of things about the men in Iraq etc. Even the money goes towards those men.
It is a highly political symbol. Just watch how it is used in the north.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

There is a difference between remembering freedom fighters and oppressors.

so Britain is supposed to remember the people it was fighting against, but the Irish aren't. That is what you are basically saying.

gurramok wrote: »

Proceeds go to every member of the British army in every war/conflict zone, that I strongly disagree with.

If the proceeds did not go to the killers of 14 unarmed civilians at Bloody Sunday and 173 other unarmed civilians killed by British soldiers between 1970 and 1973, where those British soldiers are now in retirement, it would be a starting point.

Unfortunately, some will, but the majority of the money will go to the vast majority of the British army who have done their uniform proud. Such as the ones injured helping get Saddam out of Kuwait, or the ones helping rid europe of the Nazis, of the ones who helped the Falkland Islanders get rid of the Argentine invaders.

The people of Bosnia or Crete have a very different opinion of the British army than, say, the irish republicans would have.

gurramok wrote: »

The world does not revolve around Britain either. If the average Brit realise the hurt and pain that was done in their name here, another plus.

I'm not saying it does. If you don't want to buy a Poppy then fine, but could you ask your mates not to boo the minutes silence on British soil again please, they are an embarrassment to your country.

Every nation on earth honours it's war dead, so could you kindly respect the wishes of others please.

Fratton Fred

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Biggins, it is quite irrelevant what it meant in the beginning. Fact is that meaning has changed. Nowadays the poppy is not just for the BA men who died in WW1. It simply is not. It is a political symbol. It honors the actions of BA men since WW1. Just watch any armistice day programs or BBC news bulletins. You will hear lots of things about the men in Iraq etc. Even the money goes towards those men.
It is a highly political symbol. Just watch how it is used in the north.

In your opinion.

In your petty squabble over the north of Ireland then it may have been politicised, just like the tri colour has.

It woulod be nice for once, if people saw the bigger picture.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In your opinion.

In your petty squabble over the north of Ireland then it may have been politicised, just like the tri colour has.

It woulod be nice for once, if people saw the bigger picture.

Answer me this, where does the money go?


The bigger picture is the fact that the British state certainly use this to remember BA dead since WW1.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Biggins, it is quite irrelevant what it meant in the beginning. Fact is that meaning has changed. Nowadays the poppy is not just for the BA men who died in WW1. It simply is not. It is a political symbol. It honors the actions of BA men since WW1. Just watch any armistice day programs or BBC news bulletins. You will hear lots of things about the men in Iraq etc. Even the money goes towards those men.
It is a highly political symbol. Just watch how it is used in the north.

It will be seen as a political symbol by those that advocate it as one and by those that want to see it as one.

Meanwhile those that are educated to know and see it for what it is in its true context, will continue to teach others the same.
...At least those willing to listen and not just give in to later political desired tainting by those with their own agenda.

If you want do some good and bring shame on those that are doing the hi-jacking, expose the truths and shame the devils!
That takes more courage than just caving in and continuing to go along with those that would only use the poppy and its imagery for their own political ends.

Fratton Fred

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Answer me this, where does the money go?


The bigger picture is the fact that the British state certainly use this to remember BA dead since WW1.

hang on a sec, the poppies that you see people wearing, are usually ones sold by the British Legion. They are a charity that looks after serving and ex servicemen. any money they raise in Ireland is used solely for ex British servicemen in Ireland.

They have nothing to do with the state whatsoever. (Other than giving them a get out for providing such bad care for ex service personnel.)

Poppy wreathes are laid in rememberance Sunday at the cenotaph and other war memorials. these Poppies are purely symbolic and have nothing to do with nationalism, or politics, they are a simle sign of rememberance that has been used for decades.

from what I can tell, the Republicans have only made a big deal over this since they blew up innocent people on a memorial day service in Enniskillen. As usual, they made a massive cock up and tried to cover it off with a load of bull**** about why poppies are bad.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

It will be seen as a political symbol by those that advocate it as one and by those that want to see it as one.

Meanwhile those that are educated to know and see it for what it is in its true context, will continue to teach others the same.
...At least those willing to listen and not just give in to later political desired tainting by those with their own agenda.

If you want do some good and bring shame on those that are doing the hi-jacking, expose the truths and shame the devils!
That takes more courage than just caving in and continuing to go along with those that would only use the poppy and its imagery for their own political ends.

I would argue that it is too far gone and a new symbol would be better. And as I said earlier people wont question they will just assume.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

hang on a sec, the poppies that you see people wearing, are usually ones sold by the British Legion. They are a charity that looks after serving and ex servicemen. any money they raise in Ireland is used solely for ex British servicemen in Ireland.

Exactluy. Why be a part of a support system for people like that?

from what I can tell, the Republicans have only made a big deal over this since they blew up innocent people on a memorial day service in Enniskillen. As usual, they made a massive cock up and tried to cover it off with a load of bull**** about why poppies are bad.

Was waiting for that. Honestly just **** off with that bollux.

LordSutch

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would argue that it is too far gone and a new symbol would be better.

But its the poppy that grows on the fields ........

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would argue that it is too far gone and a new symbol would be better. And as I said earlier people wont question they will just assume.

Well, why give into the hi-jackers and intimidation?
Why let a symbol become tainted?

Would we get a new symbol if our Easter lilly or shamrock was taken over by later hi-jackers?
No, we would continue to speak back in retort and educate.
Why should respectful wearers of the Poppy not be similar?

Those that don't question, those that just swallow the spiel of the intimidators and tainters, are only letting themselves down in their exposed stupidity, complacency and exposed lack of education.

Peace.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Well, why give into the hi-jackers and intimidation?
Why let a symbol become tainted?

Would we get a new symbol if our Easter lilly or shamrock was taken over by later hi-jackers?
No, we would continue to speak back in retort and educate.
Why should respectful wearers of the Poppy not be similar?

Those that don't question, those that just swallow the spiel of the intimidators and tainters, are only letting themselves down in their exposed stupidity, complacency and exposed lack of education.

Peace.

But what about where the money goes?
The vast majority of people will assume it is being worn by you for the same reason it is being worn by those on the BBC etc, those who will be the first to mention the dead from Iraq. Reckon the British prime minister will say something like that? I say he will.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Exactluy. Why be a part of a support system for people like that?





Was waiting for that. Honestly just **** off with that bollux.

So lets not help people in Ireland who served in the BA? Lets just forget about them? Hey, they don't matter, they aren't proper nationalists..

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

So lets not help people in Ireland who served in the BA? Lets just forget about them? Hey, they don't matter, they aren't proper nationalists..

What have they done to deserve help? A few illegal wars? The mind boggles that people will give money to them after what the BA has done in Ireland. Sworn an oath to a foreign monarch? Were they forced to go or anything? No.

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What have they done to deserve help? A few illegal wars? The mind boggles that people will give money to them after what the BA has done in Ireland. Sworn an oath to a foreign monarch? Were they forced to go or anything? No.

Irish people in WW2 who went off to fight Nazi Germany?

LordSutch

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What have they done to deserve help? A few illegal wars? The mind boggles that people will give money to them after what the BA has done in Ireland. Sworn an oath to a foreign monarch? Were they forced to go or anything? No.

A few illegal wars? What, you mean like WWI & WWII > fighting tyrants like Hitler & Mussolini.

Wolfe Tone

LordSutch wrote: »

A few illegal wars? What, you mean like WWI & WWII > fighting tyrants like Hitler & Mussolini.

Iraq etc.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But what about where the money goes?
The vast majority of people will assume it is being worn by you for the same reason it is being worn by those on the BBC etc, those who will be the first to mention the dead from Iraq. Reckon the British prime minister will say something like that? I say he will.

Ok, so the question I asked goes un-answered - but I will continue answer yours.

As far as I know, the money within English border lines goes towards those that are injured and to families effected, to those who stood up bravely and wanted to be counted.
The Scottish funds go to the Earl Haig Fund.
France, Canada and New Zealand do similar.

Judge the political spinners (and rightly so) but not the suffering footsoldiers who are just a tool or now a propaganda device for others.

Meanwhile my question goes unanswered:

Originally Posted by Biggins
Well, why give into the hi-jackers and intimidation?
Why let a symbol become tainted?

Would we get a new symbol if our Easter lilly or shamrock was taken over by later hi-jackers?
No, we would continue to speak back in retort and educate.
Why should respectful wearers of the Poppy not be similar?

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Ok, so the question I asked goes un-answered - but I will continue answer yours.

Sorry about that, will do so now.

As far as I know, the money within English border lines goes towards those that are injured and to families effected, to those who stood up bravely and wanted to be counted.

Those who stood up and were counted in the North and in Iraq?

Well, why give into the hi-jackers and intimidation?

What happens when the "hi jackers" outnumber people like yourself?

Why let a symbol become tainted?

Well it has been.

Would we get a new symbol if our Easter lilly or shamrock was taken over by later hi-jackers?

Some would argue that the lily has been.

No, we would continue to speak back in retort and educate.

But people wont question your wearing of the poppy, they will just assume, won't they? Unless you are gonna go around explaining to every person you meet why you are wearing it.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

...But people wont question your wearing of the poppy, they will just assume, won't they? Unless you are gonna go around explaining to every person you meet why you are wearing it.

Well, if they are educated enough and/or remember the lessons they were taught in school (if they were paying attention that day), they would know.
On top of that, when such commemorative occasions arise, the significance and meaning of the poppy is explained numerous times by multiple presentators across many stations in many countries.
- If one is willing to listen or have their memory refreshed, they are the better for it.
For with greater knowledge comes the means to defeat an enemy and/or aggressor.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Well, if they are educated enough and/or remember the lessons they were taught in school (if they were paying attention that day), they would know.

I never learnt anything about the poppy in school

On top of that, when such commemorative occasions arise, the significance and meaning of the poppy is explained numerous times by multiple presentators across many stations in many countries.

Tell me this, when Cameron is giving his speech, what soldiers will he go on about? Not just those who died in WW1.

- If one is willing to listen or have their memory refreshed, they are the better for it.

Who will people listen to?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I never learnt anything about the poppy in school

Thats a shame (not yours but on the educators).

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Tell me this, when Cameron is giving his speech, what soldiers will he go on about? Not just those who died in WW1.

...And if he does, he's using the poppy as a means to his own ends - and should be called up on it equally as those that call upon it just as a device to further intimidate and bully.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

...Who will people listen to?

The public could listen to those that speak of its true origins. I though that was obvious.

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Thats a shame (not yours but on the educators).

Indeed.

...And if he does, he's using the poppy as a means to his own ends - and should be called up on it equally as those that call upon it just as a device to further intimidate and bully.

But will people take example from him or people like yourself?

The public could listen to those that speak of its true origins. I though that was obvious.

Every year the poppy and November etc is used to whip up support for the BA, going on about past sacrifices and how that is ongoing today. Hopefully people will listen to people like your good self, but as long as leaders of countries use it as a political symbol it will remain so.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But will people take example from him or people like yourself?

I would hope they would listen to both sides and peacefully chose to go with the truth and heart of the matter, deciding with hopefully enough common sense to be able to recognise the difference between spin and actual fact.
...A skill that comes from education too.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

...Every year the poppy and November etc is used to whip up support for the BA, going on about past sacrifices and how that is ongoing today. Hopefully people will listen to people like your good self, but as long as leaders of countries use it as a political symbol it will remain so.

Again, indeed but as long as we are educated enough to know better, their banter and politician blarney falls on deaf ears and is recognised for what it is.

Education is and can be truth - and the truth shall set you free!
(someone famous once said that...)

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

I would hope they would listen to both sides and peacefully chose to go with the truth and heart of the matter, deciding with hopefully enough common sense to be able to recognise the difference between spin and actual fact.
...A skill that comes from education too.

But what about the people who do wear it for the "hi jacked" reasons? And not the ones which you have?
Are you comfortable with your money going to that "charity"?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But what about the people who do wear it for the "hi jacked" reasons? And not the ones which you have?
Are you comfortable with your money going to that "charity"?

I am not happy if money is mis-directed in any way from where I want it to go - I am happy to make sure that when/if I donate, I know where it is truthfully going.
I would hope others would check so too.

Donkey Oaty

Biggins wrote: »

I would hope they would listen to both sides and peacefully chose to go with the truth and heart of the matter, deciding with hopefully enough common sense to be able to recognise the difference between spin and actual fact.

You're optimistic. Remember Michael Foot's "donkey jacket"?

Biggins

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You're optimistic. Remember Michael Foot's "donkey jacket"?

I'd rather be optimistic and live in a place of "possibilities" and truth than be in a land of depression and reluctance to advance through adopted complacency and lack of knowledge.

dan719

KeithAFC wrote: »

So lets not help people in Ireland who served in the BA? Lets just forget about them? Hey, they don't matter, they aren't proper nationalists..

Sure proper nationalists leave bombs in civillian areas to kill and maim as many innocent people as possible. Real heroes. :rolleyes: