the Poppy

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

How do you even say that? The officual name is The republic of ireland end of!

No it is not.
"The Republic of" is a description.

The countries official name is Ireland or Éire.

owenc

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

It's an informal name for the state known as "Ireland", which is the 26 counties of the island of Ireland. Odd, but true.

Most of us have no problem with "The Republic of Ireland".

I'm not keen on "Southern Ireland" myself.

What about down south thats what we normally call it, or the republic.

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No it is not.
"The Republic of" is a description.

The countries official name is Ireland or Éire.

No its not.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

lugha

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The 26 county state on this island is not called the Republic of Ireland.

Well, seeing as how you can "call" something by its name or description, I would say it is. :P And it's what I call it.

Micky Dolenz

This stops here. I don't care what parts of the island are called what.

This gets back on topic now or I will close it and some of ye here are threading on thin ice.

Agricola

KeithAFC wrote: »

What is the Republic of Ireland then?

The name of a football team.

The 26 counties is officially recognised worldwide as "Ireland"
The 6 counties is officially recognised as "Northern Ireland"

A Dub in Glasgo

Oh no, it is going to a long couple of months...

owenc

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Oh no, it is going to a long couple of months...

OFF TOPIC

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

OFF TOPIC

Anyway, getting back to the point, are people actually happy for their money to go to that charity?

storm2811

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Anyway, getting back to the point, are people actually happy for their money to go to that charity?

Yup.

Wolfe Tone

storm2811 wrote: »

Yup.

Huh, fair enough if you want to provide a support system for those engaged in wars in Iraq etc... by their own choice.

You cannot think of a more deserving charity?

storm2811

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Huh, fair enough if you want to provide a support system for those engaged in wars in Iraq etc... by their own choice.

You cannot think of a more deserving charity?

Why not? They've suffered serious trauma, both physical and mental and of course need help.
18 soldiers have returned from Iraq and Afghanistan with only one limb, you wouldn't help those men and women?

I do donate to other charities too, I don't just focus on one.

Wolfe Tone

storm2811 wrote: »

Why not? They've suffered serious trauma, both physical and mental and of course need help.
18 soldiers have returned from Iraq and Afghanistan with only one limb, you wouldn't help those men and women?

I do donate to other charities too, I don't just focus on one.

So you will contribute to an event which serves as a recruiting tool for the BA? Harping on about past sacrifices etc, how they are all heroes?

Would you not be better served attempting to prevent people from joining the BA and putting themselves in that position?

storm2811

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So you will contribute to an event which serves as a recruiting tool for the BA? Harping on about past sacrifices etc, how they are all heroes?

Would you not be better served attempting to prevent people from joining the BA and putting themselves in that position?

How does it serve as a recruiting tool? I never said they were heroes, not once, nor do I agree with the wars but they need help, what do you not get?

I'm not going to stop strangers making such a major life decision, if they were close to me then yes I'd discuss with it them and warn them of the consequences but if they really wanted to go then there's nothing I could do.

dr.bollocko

FYI Owenc has been banned from after hours so please do not direct any further questions or statements at him as he will not be in a position to respond.

jonsnow

Fratton Fred wrote: »

? or maybe on the 21st November each year, the GAA should remember the 14 men of the Cairo gang that were murdered in their beds, not just those murdered in Croke Park.

Whataboutery fail.As if there any comparison between the targeted assassinations of a cadre of veteran military intelligence officers who acted as assassins themselves and civilians at a football game being randomly shot down.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

So what about the Canadians that wear it

If you really think claiming that British Commonwealth use of the poppy supports your argument that it's not a British symbol, I don't know what to say except, perhaps, that it might be worth expanding your world view here.

Once again: the poppy is used only to commemorate those who fought on the British side, and specifically those who fought with Britain and British Commonwealth countries. It does not commemorate any other group of people, even people like the Russians who fought against the same opponent as the British in both world wars. It is exclusively used to honour one side.

The British poppy is not worn by the leaders of the United States, France or Russia. Fact. It is only British and British Commonwealth leaders who wear it. Why are you in denial of this fact? Why are you attempting to give the British poppy an apolitical meaning and international acceptance which it most assuredly does not possess?

Furthermore - and you also willfully ignore this point - the entire poppy appeal is organised by a group which is arguably the most nationalistic, jingoistic British organisation around, the Royal British Legion. Not in your wildest imagination could you sell the poppy campaign as something above politics or something which is used by political leaders beyond Britain and the British Commonwealth.

If you have evidence of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations beyond these British areas, please produce it.

Biggins wrote: »

What about the French that still wear it? (They then used it further)

Evidence? The British poppy certainly wasn't worn by the leader of the French state at this, this (you'll notice the French and Italian person next to him are each wearing a blue flower) or this (same blue flower worn by the French, while the British wear their red poppy) World War One commemoration.

So, Biggins, where are you getting your idea that the British poppy is used to commemorate people other than those who fought for the British state and British Commonwealth from? No waffle. Straight verifiable facts, please.

Biggins wrote: »

What about the Irish that wear it? (...For the many Irish that also died for future freedoms!)

You mean those Irish who are commemorating people who died fighting for the British Empire/state? That's an own goal if ever there has been one.

Biggins wrote: »

What about the Scotish who wear it?

Are you serious? Scotland is in Britain, and the Scots in question fought for the British state. I'm trying to be polite here. You're really not doing your "the poppy is not British" contention any good here, Biggins.

Biggins wrote: »

What about the New Zealanders that still wear it?

Would that be any relation to the New Zealand which is in the British Commonwealth? Not exactly a raging sovereign state there, eh.

Biggins wrote: »

The fact is that its an international flower image of remembrance and sorrow (and internationally still is seen that way) for those that died on the fields of France and elsewhere. Thats it. No further spin and divisional bullschite.

As shown above, this is very, very far from "the fact": the British poppy is, in its entirety, a symbol used to commemorate only those who fought for the British Empire/state and its (mostly white) British Commonwealth allies.

Spin? It is you who is spinning this. When you show evidence of Bush, Obama, Sarkozy, Merkel, Mitterrand, Putin and all other leaders outside the British state and its British Commonwealth brethren using it, you will be on solid ground.

Or are you so caught up in the emotion of this Royal British Legion commemoration that you cannot think rationally?

Biggins wrote: »

that's their right for many have actually died to give them that right (Eaten bread is soon forgotten!).... and for a few small moments in our miserable lives, remember those that have given their lives so we can live ours today!

What arrant bullshít. Really: get a grip. You have bought into the "we fought for freedom" mythology of British nationalism hook, line and sinker. In the muddled, incoherent and emotionally unstable process which brought you to your views the irony of claiming the British fought for "our freedom" in WW I while ruling 25% of this planet (including this little country) entirely escaped you. And you perceive yourself to be educated?

Biggins wrote: »

those with an actual education, awareness of history, knowledge of TRUE basic facts

Why thank you, Biggins. Charming. In addition to ironic and unsubstantiated, this was very immature on your part. I won't lower myself.

Biggins wrote: »

A picture paints a thousand words

You're getting all irrational/emotional again. Try and stick with facts, please. You claimed the British poppy is widely used beyond Britain and the British Commonwealth. You have not supported this with evidence.

Biggins wrote: »

stay informed of the actual facts

If only you could it would be a blessing. You could start by putting down those British tabloids and switching over from Sky/ITN News to France 24. A small start, but a start nevertheless.

Dionysus

Chairman Meow wrote: »

The poppy is a commemoration of all soldiers who died in WW1 not just british.

Once again: the British/red poppy commemorates only those who fought on the British side. It does not, and never has, commemorated any people the British have fought against in the same wars. Can you even imagine how ballistic the Royal British Legion would get if the poppy were designed to commemorate Germans killed in WW I? (not to mention Russians)

Before you make such claims next time, evidence might be useful.

Wolfe Tone

Dionysus wrote: »

I think you'll find that the identity "Irish" is, according to a representative poll of one thousand people in The Belfast Telegraph in March 2010, the most popular national self-definition among residents of Northern Ireland (only 18% viewed themselves by the regional identity "Northern Irish"):

Irish identity tops new Northern Ireland poll

He is banned and cannot reply.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

If you really think claiming that British Commonwealth use of the poppy supports your argument that it's not a British symbol, I don't know what to say except, perhaps, that it might be worth expanding your world view here.

I've already explained where the poppy originates from 3 times - how many time does one have to be educated before it sinks in?

Dionysus wrote: »

...Once again: the poppy is used only to commemorate those who fought on the British side, and specifically those who fought with Britain and British Commonwealth countries. It does not commemorate any other group of people, even people like the Russians who fought against the same opponent as the British in both world wars. It is exclusively used to honour one side.

I never said it represented ALL sides - don't pull that stunt with me - It don't wash!
Anyone with a bit of kop on will see that I was referring to the allied side in regards to the poppy - and the allied side consisted of many countries.
You got a problem with that? Go take your outmoded hatred elsewhere!

Dionysus wrote: »

The British poppy is not worn by the leaders of the United States, France or Russia. Fact. It is only British and British Commonwealth leaders who wear it. Why are you in denial of this fact? Why are you attempting to give the British poppy an apolitical meaning and international acceptance which it most assuredly does not possess?

Again - I NEVER stated that it was worn by leaders (trying again to put words in my mouth?)
It is worn by the families and the countries citizens effected.

Dionysus wrote: »

Furthermore - and you also willfully ignore this point - the entire poppy appeal is organised by a group which is arguably the most nationalistic, jingoistic British organisation around, the Royal British Legion.

Evidence - and I mean real evidence to prove that opinion?

Dionysus wrote: »

Not in your wildest imagination could you sell the poppy campaign as something above politics or something which is used by political leaders beyond Britain and the British Commonwealth.

As as long as outdated bigots taint the original poppy as more than what its seen as by family's and supporters - it will be spun by those wishing to politicise it.

Dionysus wrote: »

If you have evidence of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations beyond these British areas, please produce it.

Now your getting into word play - "British areas" ?

Other overseas ceremonies

• In Kanchanaburi, Thailand, a dawn service is held at Hellfire Pass, a rock cutting dug by allied Prisoners of War and Asian labourers for the Thai-Burma Railway. This cutting is where the greatest number of lives were lost during railway construction. The dawn service is followed by a "gunfire breakfast" (coffee with a shot (or two) of rum) recalling the 'breakfast' taken by many soldiers before facing battle. At 11am a second ceremony is held at the main POW cemetery in the city of Kanchanaburi, where 6,982 POWs are buried, mostly British, Australian, Dutch and Canadians. Over the years, both services have been attended by some Anzac ex-POWs and their families travelling from Australia, as well as ambassadors from the Australian and New Zealand consulates, the Kanchanaburi Provincial Governor, and others. The closest Saturday to Anzac Day also sees the ex-POWs attend an Australian Rules footy match between the Thailand Tigers and a team invited from neighbouring Asian Countries.

• In the Cook Islands, Niue, Samoa, and Tonga Anzac Day is also commemorated to honour their soldiers who participated in the campaign.

• In Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea there is a dawn service at the Bomana War Cemetery. Bomana is the location of thousands of graves of Australian and New Zealand Servicemen who were killed during the New Guinea campaign of World War II.

• In Newfoundland, Canada, the Gallipoli offensive is commemorated each year on 25 April by the Royal Newfoundland Regiment who hold a march from Government House through the streets of St. John's ending at the National War Memorial. Members of both the Australian and New Zealand armed forces are invited each year to participate in the march and wreath laying ceremonies. Other Canadian communities also mark Anzac Day; Calgary has had a Cenotaph Service annually at Central Park with participation from the local military.

• In France in the towns of Le Quesnoy and Longueval and in the town of Villers-Bretonneux (on the next closest weekend) because on 25 April 1918, the village of Villers-Bretonneux was liberated by the Anzacs.

• In French Polynesia, Anzac Day has been commemorated with an official ceremony held in Papeete since 2006.[33] The 2009 ceremony was attended by French Polynesia President Oscar Temaru, who praised the "courage and liberty" of Australian and New Zealand soldiers in a statement.

• In Germany, Anzac Day is commemorated in Berlin, at the Commonwealth Kriegsgräber, Charlottenburg. (Commonwealth War Graves).

• In Indonesia, Anzac Day is commemorated in Jakarta, Balikpapan, Bangka Island, Bandung, Denpasar and Surabaya.

• In Israel Anzac Day is commemorated at the Commonwealth War cemetery on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem.
• In Hodogaya a suburb of Yokohama, Japan, there is a small service held in the Commonwealth War Graves cemetery.

• In the United States, Anzac Day is commemorated at the Los Angeles National Cemetery in Westwood, California. The New Zealand and Australian Consulates-General rotate hosting the service. The largest expatriate community of New Zealanders and Australians are in Southern California, hence this location. In New York a small mid-morning tribute to Anzac Day is held in the roof garden in the British Empire Building in Rockefeller Plaza, 620 5th Avenue, overlooking St. Patrick's Cathedral, on the Sunday nearest 25 April; it is an annual tradition that has been held at this locale since 1950. In Washington DC, Australian and New Zealand servicemen and women observe Anzac Day at a Dawn Service at the Korean War Veterans Memorial on 25 April each year. In Hawaii the Marine Corps hosts an Anzac Day Ceremony at the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific, known as "The Punchbowl", where several dignitaries from many countries including Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the U.S. attend to commemorate the memory of all who have fallen for their country. In Santa Barbara, CA, Anzac Day is remembered by the ex-patriate Australian and New Zealand communities. In the absence of an official World War I remembrance, several dignitaries from many countries including Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. attend an 11.11am morning service held at the Elings Park Veteran’s Memorial Walk on 25 April of each year. Two-up and a sausage sizzle follows the event.

• In Ireland, Anzac Day is remembered by the ex-patriate New Zealand and Australian communities. In the absence of an official World War I remembrance, and in honour of Irish soldiers who fought and perished in the Dardanelles and elsewhere, Anzac Day commemorations are also attended by members of veterans groups and historical societies, including the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, O.N.E.T., the Royal British Legion, UN Veterans, and more. Since the mid-1980s, an evening service has been organised by the New Zealand-Ireland Association, which currently takes place in St Ann's Church, Dawson St, Dublin 2. For the 90th anniversary in 2005, a daylight service was held for the first time in the re-furbished Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin 11. A Turkish Hazel tree, planted by the Ambassadors of Australia, New Zealand and Turkey, commemorates this occasion. It can be found to the south of the limestone Memorial Wall. Since this date, a dawn service has been held at this location. At the Ballance House in County Antrim, the official New Zealand centre in Northern Ireland, a midday Anzac reception and act of remembrance takes place. An Anzac Tea Dance is held every year by the Dun Laoghaire branch of the RBL .

• A service of remembrance to commemorate Anzac Day and Gallipoli is held at the National Memorial Arboretum. This commences with a service in the chapel followed by wreath laying at the Gallipoli memorial.

Dionysus wrote: »

You mean those Irish who are commemorating people who died fighting for the British Empire/state? That's an own goal if ever there has been one.

So your insulting our dead now - would you like to spit on their graves too while your at it?

Dionysus wrote: »

Are you serious? Scotland is in Britain, and the Scots in question fought for the British state. I'm trying to be polite here. You're really not doing your "the poppy is not British" contention any good here, Biggins.

Actually if you bothered to state my words with their proper interpretation and referencing, I never said Scotland was never NOT part of the English state (But hey, words put in the mouth again!)
I simply listed where a number of places where the poppy is still held in high regard by associations even not connected to the body south of the Scottish border that you wish to slander.

Dionysus wrote: »

Would that be any relation to the New Zealand which is in the British Commonwealth? Not exactly a raging sovereign state there, eh.

Again staged to show other places but hey, go ahead and have a dig at that country too!

Dionysus wrote: »

As shown above, this is very, very far from "the fact": the British poppy is, in its entirety, a symbol used to commemorate only those who fought for the British Empire/state and its (mostly white) British Commonwealth allies.

...And your point is? They were all on the allied side were they not?
But hey, lets spin it as JUST the Brits that were in this war!

Dionysus wrote: »

When you show evidence of Bush, Obama, Sarkozy, Merkel, Mitterrand, Putin and all other leaders outside the British state and its British Commonwealth brethren using it, you will be on solid ground.

Again YOUR using the political leaders to politicise the poppy.
See above list for some of those other countries and its people who wear it and know its true significance.

Dionysus wrote: »

...you cannot think rationally?

I think your words speaks volumes as to who can't!

Dionysus wrote: »

What arrant bullshít. Really: get a grip. You have bought into the "we fought for freedom" mythology of British nationalism hook, line and sinker. In the muddled, incoherent and emotionally unstable process which brought you to your views the irony of claiming the British fought for "our freedom" in WW I while ruling 25% of this planet (including this little country) entirely escaped you. And you perceive yourself to be educated?

(a) Again your injecting nationalism imagery into a flower that does not exist in its true meaning and context.
(b) Again - and please note this readers - I never said also that "the British fought for "our freedom" - but hey, nice try again putting words in my mouth!
Getting to be very much a habit so far...

Dionysus wrote: »

Why thank you, Biggins. Charming. In addition to ironic and unsubstantiated, this was very immature on your part. I won't lower myself.

Unsubstantiated? Please - keep going... your starting to make yourself look stupid - opps... maybe its too late!

Dionysus wrote: »

Try and stick with facts, please. You claimed the British poppy is widely used beyond Britain and the British Commonwealth. You have not supported this with evidence.

DOH!!!
I haven't? I really haven't? :pac:
Dear gawd, please show some people how to use the internet for research and or even how to pick up a history book!

Dionysus wrote: »

If only you could it would be a blessing. You could start by putting down those British tabloids and switching over from Sky/ITN News to France 24. A small start, but a start nevertheless.

Aaa... yes!
When all else fails, insult and try to infer that readers of newspapers and watchers of media which hold opinions and teaching that are contrary to your own, are all lower life forms than your good self, for they must be because they look at material you don't agree with...

But hey, keep going with the spin, the putting words in my mouth, the insulting of countries, the insulting of the dead, the digs at thinkers that don't agree with you and the digs at the media you don't like...

Your doing so well so far!

KeithAFC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ki3Es6RNlM

Great video and what these people did.

Biggins

KeithAFC wrote: »

INSERTED VIDEO

Great video and what these people did.

Thank you.
That video refers to the Allied forces too.
But those that want to spin their crap will not see that - they will just see "Britain".

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

Thank you.
That video refers to the Allied forces too.
But those that want to spin their crap will not see that - they will just see "Britain".

How did you watch an 8 min vid in only 3 mins? Biggins please tell me your time bending secret!

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

How did you watch an 8 min vid in only 3 mins? Biggins please tell me your time bending secret!

...Because I have seen it before. Doh!

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk37TD_08eA

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

...Because I have seen it before. Doh!

So no delorean?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So no delorean?

Afraid not but I nearly bought an Edsel car once!
Nearly just as bad! :pac:

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ki3Es6RNlM

Great video and what these people did.

Celebrating them? It's sad that that is the lesson taken by many from that búll**** war. Those men should be pitied for their wasted lives. Lives thrown away by leaders who literally could care less, that's the real lesson, patriotism buys you a grave.

Biggins

karma_ wrote: »

Celebrating them? It's sad that that is the lesson taken by many from that búll**** war. Those men should be pitied for their wasted lives. Lives thrown away by leaders who literally could care less, that's the real lesson, patriotism buys you a grave.

Truth in some of those words but patriotism on home soil also got for some of us, our independence too.
Least we forget also.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

Celebrating them? It's sad that that is the lesson taken by many from that búll**** war. Those men should be pitied for their wasted lives. Lives thrown away by leaders who literally could care less, that's the real lesson, patriotism buys you a grave.

Without it, you would not have a republic like Biggins said.