the Poppy

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

Without it, you would not have a republic like Biggins said.

Unfortunately I don't. I live in Derry.

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't. I live in Derry.

Oh lol. Your only on holiday then..

Biggins

karma_ wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't. I live in Derry.

Sure we can still get drunk together.
(I'm a cheap date!)

davyjose

poppyvalley wrote: »

for the freedom of all small nations.

Mwah ha ha ha

I think you'll find every nation that ever fights a war, ever, is doing so for the "freedom" of all small nations. I've no problem with the Poppy, as long as we recognise it symbolises the wars Britain have fought in over the last 100 years.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

Other overseas ceremonies


In Kanchanaburi, Thailand, a dawn service is held at Hellfire Pass, a rock cutting dug by allied Prisoners of War and Asian labourers for the Thai-Burma Railway. This cutting is where the greatest number of lives were lost during railway construction. The dawn service is followed by a "gunfire breakfast" (coffee with a shot (or two) of rum) recalling the 'breakfast' taken by many soldiers before facing battle. At 11am a second ceremony is held at the main POW cemetery in the city of Kanchanaburi, where 6,982 POWs are buried, mostly British, Australian, Dutch and Canadians. Over the years, both services have been attended by some Anzac ex-POWs and their families travelling from Australia, as well as ambassadors from the Australian and New Zealand consulates, the Kanchanaburi Provincial Governor, and others. The closest Saturday to Anzac Day also sees the ex-POWs attend an Australian Rules footy match between the Thailand Tigers and a team invited from neighbouring Asian Countries.

In the Cook Islands, Niue, Samoa, and Tonga Anzac Day is also commemorated to honour their soldiers who participated in the campaign.

In Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea there is a dawn service at the Bomana War Cemetery. Bomana is the location of thousands of graves of Australian and New Zealand Servicemen who were killed during the New Guinea campaign of World War II.

In Newfoundland, Canada, the Gallipoli offensive is commemorated each year on 25 April by the Royal Newfoundland Regiment who hold a march from Government House through the streets of St. John's ending at the National War Memorial. Members of both the Australian and New Zealand armed forces are invited each year to participate in the march and wreath laying ceremonies. Other Canadian communities also mark Anzac Day; Calgary has had a Cenotaph Service annually at Central Park with participation from the local military.
In France in the towns of Le Quesnoy and Longueval and in the town of Villers-Bretonneux (on the next closest weekend) because on 25 April 1918, the village of Villers-Bretonneux was liberated by the Anzacs.

In French Polynesia, Anzac Day has been commemorated with an official ceremony held in Papeete since 2006.[33] The 2009 ceremony was attended by French Polynesia President Oscar Temaru, who praised the "courage and liberty" of Australian and New Zealand soldiers in a statement.

In Germany, Anzac Day is commemorated in Berlin, at the Commonwealth Kriegsgräber, Charlottenburg. (Commonwealth War Graves).
In Indonesia, Anzac Day is commemorated in Jakarta, Balikpapan, Bangka Island, Bandung, Denpasar and Surabaya.

In Israel Anzac Day is commemorated at the Commonwealth War cemetery on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem.
In Hodogaya a suburb of Yokohama, Japan, there is a small service held in the Commonwealth War Graves cemetery.

In the United States, Anzac Day is commemorated at the Los Angeles National Cemetery in Westwood, California. The New Zealand and Australian Consulates-General rotate hosting the service. The largest expatriate community of New Zealanders and Australians are in Southern California, hence this location. In New York a small mid-morning tribute to Anzac Day is held in the roof garden in the British Empire Building in Rockefeller Plaza, 620 5th Avenue, overlooking St. Patrick's Cathedral, on the Sunday nearest 25 April; it is an annual tradition that has been held at this locale since 1950. In Washington DC, Australian and New Zealand servicemen and women observe Anzac Day at a Dawn Service at the Korean War Veterans Memorial on 25 April each year. In Hawaii the Marine Corps hosts an Anzac Day Ceremony at the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific, known as "The Punchbowl", where several dignitaries from many countries including Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the U.S. attend to commemorate the memory of all who have fallen for their country. In Santa Barbara, CA, Anzac Day is remembered by the ex-patriate Australian and New Zealand communities. In the absence of an official World War I remembrance, several dignitaries from many countries including Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. attend an 11.11am morning service held at the Elings Park Veteran’s Memorial Walk on 25 April of each year. Two-up and a sausage sizzle follows the event.

In Ireland, Anzac Day is remembered by the ex-patriate New Zealand and Australian communities. In the absence of an official World War I remembrance, and in honour of Irish soldiers who fought and perished in the Dardanelles and elsewhere, Anzac Day commemorations are also attended by members of veterans groups and historical societies, including the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, O.N.E.T., the Royal British Legion, UN Veterans, and more. Since the mid-1980s, an evening service has been organised by the New Zealand-Ireland Association, which currently takes place in St Ann's Church, Dawson St, Dublin 2. For the 90th anniversary in 2005, a daylight service was held for the first time in the re-furbished Grangegorman Military Cemetery, Dublin 11. A Turkish Hazel tree, planted by the Ambassadors of Australia, New Zealand and Turkey, commemorates this occasion. It can be found to the south of the limestone Memorial Wall. Since this date, a dawn service has been held at this location. At the Ballance House in County Antrim, the official New Zealand centre in Northern Ireland, a midday Anzac reception and act of remembrance takes place. An Anzac Tea Dance is held every year by the Dun Laoghaire branch of the RBL .

A service of remembrance to commemorate Anzac Day and Gallipoli is held at the National Memorial Arboretum. This commences with a service in the chapel followed by wreath laying at the Gallipoli memorial.

So, I ask where else outside British and British Commonwealth ceremonies the poppy is used and you respond with a totally irrelevant cut and paste job about "Overseas ceremonies" - not one of which claims that the British poppy is used at them. Try and stick to the point. It's not really a new piece of historical information to see that WW I is commemorated across the world; people other than those who died for the British Empire died, believe it or not. Why you want to hijack their ceremonies for your poppy agenda is just cringe-worthy.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

As as long as outdated bigots taint the original poppy.... Go take your outmoded hatred elsewhere!

You're really letting yourself down here. There are ways to lose an argument gracefully.

Biggins wrote: »

your starting to make yourself look stupid...

It's not the smartest thing to question a poster's education and intelligence while you consistently fail to articulate yourself in a calm, reasoned and measured manner (I get the impression that your ranting is a form of therapy). It also isn't too smart to question somebody's education while consistently failing to distinguish between basic English words such as 'your' and 'you're' in the process, to take one of several examples.

Biggins wrote: »

I don't wash!

Not your mouth anyway.

Biggins wrote: »

I've already explained where the poppy originates from 3 times - how many time does one have to be educated before it sinks in?

Unsurprisingly, I know where it originates. You're just being rather disingenuous by ignoring its present-day meaning and waffling on about its original meaning and trying to contend both are synonymous simply because you want them to be. Very childish.

Biggins wrote: »

Anyone with a bit of kop on will see that I was referring to the allied side in regards to the poppy - and the allied side consisted of many countries. You got a problem with that?

The part where you still have not produced evidence for the British poppy being used by states and people outside of Britain and the British Commonwealth? Yes, in the context of this debate I still have a problem with your reluctance to provide evidence for the poppy's use in these places.

Biggins wrote: »

It is worn by the families and the countries citizens effected.

You have indeed claimed that (although surely an "educated" man such as you knows that 'affected' and 'effected' are quite different things?). I'm still waiting for your evidence to support it. Odd, though, that if it is such an international symbol, as you claim, that the leaders of those countries don't wear it. (I note, also, that you neatly avoided the issue of the French wearing a blue flower rather than the red British poppy. Your silence gets more curious.)

Biggins wrote: »

As as long as outdated bigots taint the original poppy as more than what its seen as by family's and supporters - it will be spun by those wishing to politicise it.

And you're now speaking on behalf of all the families of British war veterans?

Biggins wrote: »

...And your point is? They were all on the allied side were they not? But hey, lets spin it as JUST the Brits that were in this war!

The point is, obviously, that you claimed the British poppy was used at WW I commemoration events outside the British state and British Commonwealth. You have not provided any evidence for this. In contrast, I have shown Sarkozy, Obama, Putin and Merkel attending these events and not wearing the British poppy. Your response? Ad hominems, irrelevancies and a generally turgid writing style.

Biggins wrote: »

the insulting of the dead

Yawn. Can you at least try to avoid falling into some tabloidesque sentimentalist John Bull drivel - for even a single post? Thank you.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

So your insulting our dead now - would you like to spit on their graves too while your at it?

Indeed. "Our dead" - they are not my dead so kindly desist from forcing your dead upon me and implying that I have some obligation to commemorate them. This is poppy fascism in action.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

So, I ask where else outside British and British Commonwealth ceremonies the poppy is used and you respond with a totally irrelevant cut and paste job about "Overseas ceremonies" - not one of which claims that the British poppy is used at them. Try and stick to the point. It's not really a new piece of historical information to see that WW I is commemorated across the world; people other than those who died for the British Empire died, believe it or not. Why you want to hijack their ceremonies for your poppy agenda is just cringe-worthy.

You asked for evidence "of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations" - France, Germany, Japan, Israel, USA, Ireland and so on???
I did so and I did so from one site alone, amid many, many others that are out there on the net and in history books.

Sorry your spin, opinions and words won't re-write history.

Dionysus wrote: »

...Why you want to hijack their ceremonies for your poppy agenda is just cringe-worthy.

Aaa... because they also use the red poppy for remembering the ultimate sacrifices made too - with the SAME still real original meaning of the red poppy - not the one your attempting to still spout! DOH!

Please...stop now... Your not doing yourself any favours by continuing your banter.

Is really the best you can do is too look for spelling mistakes? (O' look, there's another!)

Am I really childish for seeing a Poppy with its true meaning?

You seem to have a great deal of reluctance to accept many great recorded details!

I could go on but frankly your demeanour, your never ending insults towards... well frankly everything speaks volumes as to mentality.

Dionysus wrote: »

... This is poppy fascism in action.

I don't know if to laugh or feel sorry for you?

Keep spinning, keep spouting the propaganda and keep ignoring facts and history as its recorded.
It will get you far.

Good health.

KeithAFC

Dionysus wrote: »

Indeed. "Our dead" - they are not my dead so kindly desist from forcing your dead upon me and implying that I have some obligation to commemorate them. This is poppy fascism in action.

Not very nice are you?

Wolfe Tone

So, just to clear this up, people here who will wear the Poppy to commemorate WW1 dead and not the the dead from any other war or timeframe?

Donkey Oaty

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So, just to clear this up, people here will wear the Poppy to commemorate WW1 dead and not the the dead from any other war or timeframe?

I don't wear the poppy, but those that do have a multitude of reasons, none of which make me feel threatened or insulted in any way.

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So, just to clear this up, people here will wear the Poppy to commemorate WW1 dead and not the the dead from any other war or timeframe?

By my understanding (and I admit, I could be very wrong) some of those that wear it, do so as to remember those that died in WW1
By my understanding, there are those that also wear it for those they have lost in further battles after WW1 on an Allied side.
In either case, those that wear it, are remembering those that have died and suffered.

As they stand for a minutes silence by a memorial to those soldiers or by a graveside, they are not doing it to support a political agenda, nor to support an organisation (although there will always be a few wearers that will also want to try and spin it that way), they wear it because the poppy has been adopted as a red blood coloured price for lives lost fighting for what they thought was right at the time.

Wolfe Tone

How can it not be political to remember those who have died on "an allied side?"

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

How can it not be political to remember those who have died on "an allied side?"

For me its about the individual countries, recognised states that took part, not the political parties.
...But thats just me and my outlook.

They died representing their country - not a political organisation.
The badges on their military gear said what country they were from, not the political party they were supporting.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

You asked for evidence "of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations" - France, Germany, Japan, Israel, USA, Ireland and so on??? I did so

You didn't: stop being dishonest. Furthermore, if you're really claiming that the poppy is an official symbol of ceremony in Ireland, could you please show the President of Ireland wearing it? Or will this simple request cause you to go apoplectic once again....
Maybe what you mean is that the poppy is "an official symbol" for the Royal British Legion in Ireland? Nice to see you don't engage in "spin".

Biggins wrote: »

Aaa... because they also use the red poppy for remembering the ultimate sacrifices made too - with the SAME still real original meaning of the red poppy

Only problem there is that you're claiming this, without providing any evidence. Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.

Biggins wrote: »

Am I really childish for seeing a Poppy with its true meaning?

The "true meaning" of something and the "original meaning" of something are rarely coterminous. The distinction is clearly lost on you.

Biggins wrote: »

You seem to have a great deal of reluctance to accept many great recorded details!

If only you could produce these elusive "great recorded details" you might be on to something.

storm2811

Ahh grammar nazism at its finest there Dionysus.

Biggins

storm2811 wrote: »

Ahh grammar nazism at its finest there Dionysus.

Aaa well... when all else fails...

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

...could you please show the President of Ireland wearing it?

Why do I have to show a President of Ireland wearing it for gods sake?
Other Irish people wear it. Ordinary citizens - are they not good enough for you? Apparently not - as far as your concerned, in order to justify your spin, it has to be only a political person!

Dionysus wrote: »

You didn't: stop being dishonest. Furthermore, if you're really claiming that the poppy is an official symbol of ceremony in Ireland, could you please show the President of Ireland wearing it? Or will this simple request cause you to go apoplectic once again....
Maybe what you mean is that the poppy is "an official symbol" for the Royal British Legion in Ireland? Nice to see you don't engage in "spin".

As for the rest (besides all the details I've provided already), go read, go look up recorded history, not just my spelling mistakes!

O' and again - words in the mouth - I never said "the poppy is "an official symbol" for the Royal British Legion in Ireland..."

Laughable, just laughable...

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

Why do I have to show a President of Ireland wearing it for gods sake? Ordinary citizens - are they not good enough for you?

How about because you just claimed that you gave 'evidence "of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations"' in Ireland and, as such, it's natural to ask for evidence that the President of Ireland, an official representative of this state, wears it. Or the Taoiseach?

Once again no evidence to support your claim is forthcoming, it appears.

Fratton Fred

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Iraq etc.

The British Legion looks after soldiers. Soldiers do not decide where wars are fought, politicians do that. Poppies are not bought to honour politicians, they are bought to honour people who have the balls to do things others haven't.

In Iraq, both times around, 99% of those that served did so with honour and integrity. Whether or not they should have been there, or Bosnia, or theFalklands, or Sierra Leone, or East Timor, or Afghanistan is the political question.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

How about because you just claimed that you gave 'evidence "of it being an official symbol of WW I commemorations"' in Ireland and, as such, it's natural to ask for evidence that the President of Ireland, an official representative of this state, wears it. Or the Taoiseach?

Once again no evidence to support your claim is forthcoming, it appears.

And again, it don't have to be a political person to make the poppy a symbol of remembrance.

As for the former that your trying to spin: history records the poppy as been adopted by a number of countries as a symbol of remembrance and the cost of war.
Go look it up, its there on that tinter net thingy!

Dionysus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Soldiers do not decide where wars are fought, politicians do that.... [more blinkered glorification of "our boys"].... Whether or not they should have been there, or Bosnia, or theFalklands, or Sierra Leone, or East Timor, or Afghanistan is the political question.

Ah, the Nuremberg Defense.:rolleyes:

Biggins

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British Legion looks after soldiers. Soldiers do not decide where wars are fought, politicians do that. Poppies are not bought to honour politicians, they are bought to honour people who have the balls to do things others haven't.

In Iraq, both times around, 99% of those that served did so with honour and integrity. Whether or not they should have been there, or Bosnia, or theFalklands, or Sierra Leone, or East Timor, or Afghanistan is the political question.

Now thats where the skill of being able to differentiate comes into play.
It genuinely helps to clarify matters.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

Ah, the Nuremberg Defense.:rolleyes:

Actually those that tried that defence, were put on trial for their war crimes - not for the political party they supported.

Dionysus

Biggins wrote: »

And again, it don't have to be a political person to make the poppy a symbol of remembrance.

This is getting tedious. You claimed the British poppy is an "official symbol" of remembrance in Ireland. Unless your name is Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, you are claiming that representatives of the Irish state use it on official state business.

Some random member of the Royal British Legion in Dublin does not constitute "official".

Biggins wrote: »

history records the poppy as been adopted by a number of countries as a symbol of remembrance

And how many of these countries were not in the British Commonwealth? This really is a simple, straightforward question which you refuse to answer. I go for 'none' as the answer.

Fratton Fred

Dionysus wrote: »

Ah, the Nuremberg Defense.:rolleyes:

It's not the Nuremberg defence at all.

Britain needs an army, it was and still is a major part of NATO. There is no army within NATO that has a squeaky clean past, but if no one joinedvthose armies, we would probably be speaking Russian right now.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

This is getting tedious. You claimed the British poppy is an "official symbol" of remembrance in Ireland. Unless your name is Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, you are claiming that representatives of the Irish state use it on official state business....

No. Once again your trying again (I've lost count now how many times you tried it now... Will someone count the efforts for me?) to put words in my mouth.

I listed Ireland as one of the places were its worn with the original based intent and worn by Irish people.
I backed that up with posting giving details and named places.

By the way, keep up your "tedious" spinning...

Dionysus wrote: »

...And how many of these countries were not in the British Commonwealth?

...And again if you bothered to read some of the countries I listed - or even bothered to do your own research (I'm optimistic, I know...) you might see a few mentioned.

Fratton Fred

Dionysus wrote: »

This is getting tedious. You claimed the British poppy is an "official symbol" of remembrance in Ireland. Unless your name is Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, you are claiming that representatives of the Irish state use it on official state business.

Some random member of the Royal British Legion in Dublin does not constitute "official".



And how many of these countries were not in the British Commonwealth? This really is a simple, straightforward question which you refuse to answer. I go for 'none' as the answer.

Could you at least get the name right. It hasn't been the British commonwealth for over 60 years.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British Legion looks after soldiers. Soldiers do not decide where wars are fought, politicians do that. Poppies are not bought to honour politicians, they are bought to honour people who have the balls to do things others haven't.

In Iraq, both times around, 99% of those that served did so with honour and integrity. Whether or not they should have been there, or Bosnia, or theFalklands, or Sierra Leone, or East Timor, or Afghanistan is the political question.

They do decide to join the army however, dont they? They know what they are signing up for.

Wade in the Sea

poppyvalley wrote: »

I'll probably raise some tentacles..to put it mildly. I was listening to Dara O'Brian today and how he felt about wearing the poppy. It's coming up to poppy season soon. My grandfather fought in the somme for the freedom of all small nations. Some of you will say he was "misguided" but you cannot project yourselves back to the times that were in it. I live in the west of Ireland & intend to wear the poppy for november in due respects to my grandfather.

Long Thread :eek:

OP: I heard the interview and found Dara O'Briain's point very interesting. Like many Irishmen he does not identify with the poppy so he feels he shouldn't wear it. As a public figure in the UK however if he doesn't wear it he is going to be attacked by the Right in Britain. And if he gives in and wears it for that reason alone he thinks he is being disrespectful to those who genuinely hold the symbol close to their hearts.

There's quite a bit of BS being spoken here about what it is or isn't. The poppy commemorates the war dead of the British Commonwealth. Ireland was a member of the Commonwealth at the time of the two great wars. It is therefore entirely appropriate to wear the poppy here, and frankly the vast majority of people do not have a problem with it.