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the Poppy

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    #152
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »

    Wait, would this be Iraq and Afghanistan you are talking about here? They are the soldiers who the money is going toward.
    Yes.

    So you wish to engage and be a part of a support system for said soldiers and their wars?
    Yes, I'd have no problem helping men and women who've suffered because of war, from either side.
    Well it is a political symbol, just look at how it is used in the north. How can it not be political? Does it remember all who have died in wars? No.
    No, but it remembers those who have died WW1 does it not?
    Maybe you should also go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Derry or any of the other places British soldiers have fought and died together?

    I have been to different sites where wars happened, the point I was trying to make was that the site I was talking about was built by men from both Ireland Britain, showing how they were united while fighting in WW1, the site was built to remember those men from both nations as is the poppy I believe.


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    #153
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Dudess wrote: »
    What about the young boys, whatever nationality, who were sent to their deaths by bureaucrats behind mahogany desks?

    Why do you have to fund a British Army organisation to remember them? Can't people simply think about their relatives instead of buying a plastic flower and funding the British Legion? How about going to your grandparent's grave and leaving some real flowers? Oh yeah, that might be too much like an effort. So much easier to pose about wearing some plastic tack from the UK on your lapel so that everyone can see you don't support the Ra.
    Dudess wrote: »
    Y'know, Ken Loach made a good point around the time The Wind That Shakes The Barley was out - there were powerless Irish people being treated like sh1t by certain British people, but there were also plenty of powerless British people being treated like sh1t by certain British people too... the two groups should have been united, but sadly it wasn't to be.

    Twas ever thus. But that doesn't in the slightest provide any coherent reason for buying a poppy and funding the British Legion.
    Effectively, doing so is providing indirect financial support for the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, since the services provided by the British Legion to their forces returning from those occupations would have to be provided directly by the army if people didn't buy those poppies.
    Dudess wrote: »
    Britain wishes the Irish ill...?

    Yes. Not the common British person of course with whom the average Irish person has a profound amount in common, but the elite. Again, twas ever thus.
    They occupy a quarter of our country, patrol our borders and our waters, oversee our lighthouses, use our police as intelligence gatherers, and so on. We are a mockery of independence really. We are a tame vassal Ireland dominated culturally and in terms of power structures by Britain.


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    #154
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    TBH I doubt anyone would question you, people would just assume. Why not wear a different symbol? Then people will ask and you can tell them.
    True, very true and a good point.
    Credit where's its due.


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    #155
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Yes, I'd have no problem helping men and women who've suffered because of war, from either side.
    So why only help those from one?
    No, but it remembers those who have died WW1 does it not?
    Thats not the only thing it remembers is it not? It is for all those who have died etc in the BA since WW1


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    #156
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    For anyone who's interested in Dara Ó Briain's poppy dillemma, here he is explaining it on Marian Finucane's show yesterday.

    The poppy bit is from 32.19. It's worth a listen.

    pod-v-04091041m20smarianfinucane.mp3

    Sorry, that doesn't work.

    Go here: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_marianfinucane.xml and it's the second one down.


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    #157
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So why only help those from one?
    I never said that, I'd donate to either side, but both need help.
    Thats not the only thing it remembers is it not? It is for all those who have died etc in the BA since WW1

    Right, well what I'm saying is if someone wants to wear it to remember their relatives or friends from WW1 or any other war since, then let them.
    It has nothing do to with us what other people wear.


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    #158
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    storm2811 wrote: »
    If the money is going towards helping those men and women and their partners who may have to cope with their deaths then I have no problem with that.

    Even when the people in question have been responsible for innumerable invasions of foreign countries (particularly oil-rich ones), use of cowardly weapons such as "smart bombs", the five techniques (against innocent Irish people), shoot-to-kill, and a wide variety of "campaigns" which were designed to benefit their country rather than humanity? (despite the mythology, British interests and the interests of humanity are rarely the same, and if they are it's an accident; unsurprisingly, every other state on earth is the same)
    storm2811 wrote: »
    I don't see the poppy as a political symbol

    But the fact remains that it very much is a political symbol which commemorates people who fought and died for British political aims, and nobody else. To ignore this indisputable reality does not change it. What evidence do you have that the poppy is not a symbol used to commemorate people on the British side alone?


    storm2811 wrote: »
    but just a small symbol of respect

    But not, you will concede, a small symbol of respect for those who died on all sides (e.g. Germans)? It is respect for those who killed and were killed fighting for the same nation which forcibly controlled 25% of the world, yes. Why such people should be commemorated by anybody but British nationalists for this rather unethical choice is beyond me.

    storm2811 wrote: »
    built to remember what happened there and to show they fought together, as one.

    For the British Empire/state, being the very germane qualification. The fact that they were Irish does not suddenly make the immorality of their choice less immoral. Irish people who try to defend such people simply because they were born in Ireland are just as tribal and nationalistic as the British people who wear their poppy. Nationality shouldn't come into it, but the entire poppy commemoration rests upon nationalist thinking, British nationalist thinking to be precise.


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    #159
    flas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭flas


    why not wear the white poppy? much better sentiment attached to it and doesnt commerate or have any of its proceeds going towards the people who were shotting innocent civilians in NI for the last 40 years.

    great grandad fought in ww1,no problem with that,he fought so he could feed his family.brave man.


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    #160
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    storm2811 wrote: »
    I never said that, I'd donate to either side, but both need help.
    Do you not feel that by donating to a charity that supports the BA you are not putting your weight behind their actions?


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    #161
    losthorizon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    Jenny Melodic Hurdler wrote: »
    Wear it, you're grandfather had the courage of his convictions and the great war was a noble one in a lot of respects


    In no way was WW1 a "noble" war. It was about imperial empires trying to expand their influences.


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    #162
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Even when the people in question have been responsible for innumerable invasions of foreign countries (particularly oil-rich ones), use of cowardly weapons such as "smart bombs", the five techniques (against innocent Irish people), shoot-to-kill, and a wide variety of "campaigns" which were designed to benefit their country rather than humanity? (despite the mythology, British interests and the interests of humanity are rarely the same, and if they are it's an accident; unsurprisingly, every other state on earth is the same)

    I know, I know.
    The techniques used are horrible and some are even just trained to kill, which is why they can't fit back in with society after and also why they need help.
    The people who fight are also affected by the horrors of war.

    But the fact remains that it very much is a political symbol which commemorates people who fought and died for British political aims, and nobody else. To ignore this indisputable reality does not change it. What evidence do you have that the poppy is not a symbol used to commemorate people on the British side alone?

    It may not be, but many see it as a symbol to remember those who were fighting, from both Ireland and Britain.
    It may be a political symbol but it can also be more than that.

    For the British Empire/state, being the very germane qualification. The fact that they were Irish does not suddenly make the immorality of their choice less immoral. Irish people who try to defend such people simply because they were born in Ireland are just as tribal and nationalistic as the British people who wear their poppy. Nationality shouldn't come into it, but the entire poppy commemoration rests upon nationalist thinking, British nationalist thinking to be precise.

    Again, yes I see what you mean but it doesn't always have to come down to that, it can have a very simplistic meaning too.
    I'm not(as I said before) condoning war or supporting it, I'm not saying what they did was good but it's just a symbol to remember and respect.


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    #163
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Do you not feel that by donating to a charity that supports the BA you are not putting your weight behind their actions?

    If I were to donate to a charity of that sort it would be for aftercare for soldiers and their families.
    It would not be like I'm funding the "war machine" but rather just helping those who've suffered at its hands


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    #164
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    storm2811 wrote: »
    If I were to donate to a charity of that sort it would be for aftercare for soldiers and their families.
    It would not be like I'm funding the "war machine" but rather just helping those who've suffered at its hands
    You mean you are contributing towards a support system for British soldiers? The war machine?


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    #165
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    You mean you are contributing towards a support system for British soldiers? The war machine?

    Yeah..sure.


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    #166
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    storm2811 wrote: »
    Yeah..sure.
    Thats exactly what you are doing.


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    #167
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Thats exactly what you are doing.

    Come on, Muss, supporting a charity devoted to helping ex-servicemen and their families (many of whom are Irish, by the way) is not the same thing as supporting illegal wars.


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    #168
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Mysterious Man wrote: »
    Don't try school me on where the poppy comes from.

    I'm not wearing a red poppy and have no respect for those that do.

    The poppy used to be a mark of respect for the soldiers who died in the war, but now has become a symbol of imperialism.

    I'll wear a white poppy to remember the brave soldiers who died in the war.

    I'd rather wear something that signifies peace.

    Comprende?
    deary me..

    To think people died for people like you...


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    #169
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Come on, Muss, supporting a charity devoted to helping ex-servicemen and their families (many of whom are Irish, by the way) is not the same thing as supporting illegal wars.

    Why does it matter if they are "Irish" (who swore an oath of allegiance to defend the British monarchy, mind you)? If we honour them because they are "Irish" we might as well make excuses for Irish-born rapists and all the other dregs of society who do immoral things. The sole reason these particular people are being "commemorated" is because they fought for the British state and its interests. Nothing more. Do you think the British would commemorate people who fought against the British Empire for the freedom of their respective nations ?

    It doesn't work like that. I, for one, am very proud that this part of Ireland (for all its faults) is free from the very state that these people served.


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    #170
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    To think people died for people like you...

    And what "people" would that be? The Black and Tans? The Parachute Regiment? The Black Watch?


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    #171
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Why does it matter if they are "Irish" (who swore an oath of allegiance to defend the British monarchy, mind you)? If we honour them because they are "Irish" we might as well make excuses for Irish-born rapists and all the other dregs of society who do immoral things. The sole reason these particular people are being "commemorated" is because they fought for the British state and its interests. Nothing more. Do you think the British would commemorate people who fought against the British Empire for the freedom of their respective nations ?

    It doesn't work like that. I, for one, am very proud that this part of Ireland (for all its faults) is free from the very state that these people served.

    If you read back she or he(?) was referring to what I was saying about supporting soldiers who have fought and need treatment, not about remembering those in the past by wearing the poppy.


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    #172
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Dionysus wrote: »
    And what "people" would that be? The Black and Tans? The Parachute Regiment? The Black Watch?
    The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
    The Royal Irish Fusiliers
    The Royal Irish Rifles
    The Royal Irish Regiment
    The Connaught Rangers
    The Leinster Regiment
    The Royal Munster Fusiliers
    The Royal Dublin Fusiliers


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    #173
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
    The Royal Irish Fusiliers
    The Royal Irish Rifles
    The Royal Irish Regiment
    The Connaught Rangers
    The Leinster Regiment
    The Royal Munster Fusiliers
    The Royal Dublin Fusiliers
    But the poppy is not just for them is it?


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    #174
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    But the poppy is not just for them is it?
    Does it really matter who it is for?


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    #175
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Why does it matter if they are "Irish" (who swore an oath of allegiance to defend the British monarchy, mind you)? If we honour them because they are "Irish" we might as well make excuses for Irish-born rapists and all the other dregs of society who do immoral things. The sole reason these particular people are being "commemorated" is because they fought for the British state and its interests. Nothing more. Do you think the British would commemorate people who fought against the British Empire for the freedom of their respective nations ?

    It doesn't work like that. I, for one, am very proud that this part of Ireland (for all its faults) is free from the very state that these people served.

    Sorry, Dionysus, I have no idea what you are talking about. The British Legion in the Republic of Ireland provides support to ex-servicemen and their families in Ireland, and as far as I am aware does not channel funds into supporting illegal wars. It is not only British people who benefit from donations.

    That was the point I was making.


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    #176
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Does it really matter who it is for?
    lol yes. What a stupid question. Of course it matters what the poppy stands for.


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    #177
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    lol yes. What a stupid question. Of course it matters what the poppy stands for.
    No, you said who it is for. I didn't say what it stands for. We all know what it stands for. Well people who aren't stupid and ignorant.


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    #178
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    No, you said who it is for. I didn't say what it stands for. We all know what it stands for. Well people who aren't stupid and ignorant.
    How could it not matter who it was for?


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    #179
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The British armed forces should be providing for her ex-service men not handouts from the public [or Blairs blood money]. The poppy appeal releases the obligation on the British armed forces and allows them to funnel the money elsewhere.


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    #180
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    How could it not matter who it was for?
    Its well known who it is for. I don't think it matters when people question it. Just look it up and get educated on what it is about.


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    #181
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Its well known who it is for. I don't think it matters when people question it. Just look it up and get educated on what it is about.
    It is for members of the BA who have died since WW1, it is NOT just those who died in WW1.


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