Prostitution in Ireland.

Mike 1972

MazG wrote: »

I'm wondering where is the evidence that if only prostitution were legal, then it would all be lovely and cosy. Only people who fully choose to charge for sex would become prostitutes, there would be no pimps, no trafficking, no coercion, people would not be objectified etc etc....

There are parts of the sex industry which are legal in most parts of the world. These would include things like lapdancing clubs, large swathes of the advertising industry and arguably any industry/occupation where the majority of staff just happen to be young, attractive and predominantely of a single gender. Are these industries entirely free of exploitication or objectification ? Would there be less or more of such abuses were the industries in question made illegal (assuming this was even practicable).

MazG wrote: »

I'm not aware of it being anything other than a pretty seedy scene in countries where it is legal....

How many of such countries have you been to and how many people did you discuss it with while you were there ?

MazG

By regulating the industry properly, hopefully you would shrink the amount of space that exists in the market for trafficked or otherwise coerced women down to a small percentage of what it is today. Law enforcement could then focus specifically on that criminal area. Ideally, it would be eliminated totally - but the world doesn't seem to work like that.

But where is the evidence that this would actually happen? I take your point that a perfect system is never possible in any human sphere. But I have yet to see any evidence that the current system in Ireland (re trafficking/coercion/sexual health etc..) would even be improved by legalisation.

Wolfe Tone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hands up who would be happy with their son being a soldier in Afghanistan? Or a coal miner? Or a bin man?

There are plenty of jobs I would not like my children to do. However, when they are adults they will make their own cost/benefit analyses on these things an do what they prefer.

And, as I believe I outlined on an earlier thread, I would personally consider prostitution as a career were that path open to me. It's not. (unless any ladies here....:pac::pac::pac:)

Fcuk me, you would be happy with your daughter being a prostitute?


Id never let that happen.

Millicent

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Will society benifit from prostitution being viewed as "just a job"? I don't think it will. Will play into the sense of instant gratification many people have. Sex is something you pay for.

Define "benefit". You would agree that prostitution is age-old, right? So what's wrong with making it an official avenue, taxing, regulating and safeguarding both the clients and the workers?

And sure, I can definitely see your point about instant gratification but there will always be those people who choose that as an avenue over deeper relationships. Bringing things into the open is not likely to exasperate that by much, if at all.

28064212

MazG wrote: »

I'm wondering where is the evidence that if only prostitution were legal, then it would all be lovely and cosy. Only people who fully choose to charge for sex would become prostitutes, there would be no pimps, no trafficking, no coercion, people would not be objectified etc etc...

There would, of course, still be problems. The same way there are still smuggled cigarettes even though it's legal. What it would mean is that people who do choose to do it would be protected. And that resources could be dedicated to fight traffickers etc.

MazG wrote: »

I'm not aware of it being anything other than a pretty seedy scene in countries where it is legal

Examples? In the Netherlands, it has removed many of the problems associated with prostitution. "Seediness" is a perception issue, which is completely irrelevant

MazG wrote: »

Also, I'm not particularly comfortable with the notion that somehow people deserve sexual gratification and are entitled to it.

No-one said that. What they are saying is that if someone is willing to receive payment to provide it, they should be allowed do so.

MazG wrote: »

So yeah, if someone I knew had sex with a prostitute, I'd have a pretty low opinion of them. And to those of you who think that is a judgemental attitude: Yes, it is.

And again, I'd have a pretty low opinion of anyone who follows reality TV. Personal opinions are irrelevant

Monty Burnz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Fcuk me, you would be happy with your daughter being a prostitute?


Id never let that happen.

I suggest you read my post. It will help you when you come to answer it. :rolleyes:

Mike 1972

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Id never let that happen.

Are you planning on taking her at knifepoint and locking her up for most of her adult life ?

Wolfe Tone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I suggest you read my post. It will help you when you come to answer it. :rolleyes:

I did read it, dont be condescending.

Answer me this, if a daughter of yours said she wanted to be a prostitute what would you do or say?

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

But where is the evidence that this would actually happen? I take your point that a perfect system is never possible in any human sphere. But I have yet to see any evidence that the current system in Ireland (re trafficking/coercion/sexual health etc..) would even be improved by legalisation.

Well you could look at the experience in Australia or Germany or Nevada/Arizona (can never remember which) where brothels are properly organised and regulated.

I know you don't really mean this, but you are saying that the situation we have is the best possible one?

MazG

Millicent wrote: »

I didn't say anyone deserved sexual gratification.

I'm also not so naive that I think it would be all lovely and cosy for the people involved. A lot of that though pertains to the prevailing attitudes of people towards sexuality. Perhaps not in this generation but if prostitution was widely legalised and not dismissed as seedy or otherwise and those attitudes were allowed to die out, it is not unthinkable that working as a prostitute would be held in any different regard as being a masseuse or something along the same lines.

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

28064212

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Hands up who would be happy with their daughter being the prostitute in question? Or a prostitute at all?

What a meaningless argument. I wouldn't be happy with my daughter doing many, many, many legal things. Doesn't mean they should be illegal. And if she explained herself and her reasons for choosing to do so, then who am I to stop her?

Wolfe Tone

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Are you planning on taking her at knifepoint and locking her up for most of her adult life ?

What would you do?

28064212

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

No, you're looking at it from the wrong side. The pro-legalisation side are saying that people are entitled to provide sexual gratification in exchange for money if they choose to do so

Wolfe Tone

Millicent wrote: »

Define "benefit". You would agree that prostitution is age-old, right? So what's wrong with making it an official avenue, taxing, regulating and safeguarding both the clients and the workers?

And sure, I can definitely see your point about instant gratification but there will always be those people who choose that as an avenue over deeper relationships. Bringing things into the open is not likely to exasperate that by much, if at all.

Raping people is age old, everything is age old.


Prostitution is something I find disgusting. It portrays sex as something which can just be bought. It objectifies women. If we have a society where prostitution is th norm and "acceptable" what sort of effect will that have on normal relationships?

strobe

I've yet to see a good well backed up argument against prostitution, in this thread or anywhere else, that didn't boil down to "I find it morally wrong and everybody everywhere should think exactly like me on any moral issue", or "sex is a magic sacred candyfloss expression of love and kittens and anyone having sex for any other reason is a deviant".

Wolfe Tone

Laws are often made on moral and policy grounds.

MazG

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well you could look at the experience in Australia or Germany or Nevada/Arizona (can never remember which) where brothels are properly organised and regulated.

I know you don't really mean this, but you are saying that the situation we have is the best possible one?

Are they though? Are most prostitutes happy with their jobs? Very little coercion or trafficking? I just don't know. All I know is that many people on this thread have claimed that.

I certainly don't agree that the current situation is ideal. I'm just taking exception with the assumption that legalisation would make all the problems go away.

2 stroke

When I left school I was encouraged to go for a job in the bank, now everybody looks down on bankers. I'm quite sure there are ladies out there happier to work as prostitutes than they would be cooking, cleaning, serving tables, putting parking tickets on cars, collecting taxes, telesales or unemployed.

Monty Burnz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I did read it, dont be condescending.

Answer me this, if a daughter of yours said she wanted to be a prostitute what would you do or say?

I'd tell her she's only a silly woman and is not allowed to make choices her father disagrees with. That would also go for how she dresses, who she talks to and who she marries...:)

No - I'd shrug my shoulders and tell her I'd rather she didn't, and only to do it if she was sure and she was doing it for the right reasons.

Pretty much the same speech I'd give my son if he told me he was heading off to fight the Taleban.

Monty Burnz

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

MazG - you think a casual encounter is fine, but a professional agreement is not? I find that bizarre, quite frankly. And you don't address the fact that the options you consider 'fine' may not be possible for some people at all. How are they supposed to deal with their sex drives? Castration?

strobe

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Laws are often made on moral and policy grounds.

Quite, such as making homosexuality and contraception illegal.

Wolfe Tone

strobe wrote: »

Quite, such as making homosexuality and contraception illegal.

They are a few examples, but there are many many more.

Millicent

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Raping people is age old, everything is age old.


Prostitution is something I find disgusting. It portrays sex as something which can just be bought. It objectifies women. If we have a society where prostitution is th norm and "acceptable" what sort of effect will that have on normal relationships?

I can see your arguments, seriously. But that is your own particular morality. The essential difference between rape and prostitution is informed consent. Who does it harm? Honestly? And I'm not talking about coerced or desperate people. I'm thinking more of adults who can judge for themselves.

I'd imagine the effect on relationships would be the same as any other temptation. What effect does it have now where it's in the dark and unregulated and people bring venereal diseases home to a spouse?

Wolfe Tone

Millicent wrote: »

I can see your arguments, seriously. But that is your own particular morality. The essential difference between rape and prostitution is informed consent. Who does it harm? Honestly? And I'm not talking about coerced or desperate people. I'm thinking more of adults who can judge for themselves.

I'd imagine the effect on relationships would be the same as any other temptation. What effect does it have now where it's in the dark and unregulated and people bring venereal diseases home to a spouse?

I meant with regard to the attitudes to sex within relationships.


And as for rape, I want making a comparison, just demonstrating that just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right or mean it should be legalized.

Millicent

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

But why wouldn't you? Is it strictly to do with your morals or is something else at play?

Also, I don't really drink (bar the odd glass of champagne or a seasonal alcopop or two). I don't think anyone is entitled to drink but if they want to pay for it, I don't have a problem with it so long as they don't harm anyone when drunk.

RockinRolla

I wouldn't pay for sex, personally, but I have absolutely no problems with people who do and I fully support the legalisation of it - it's an act of freedom and in a free society we should be free to choose.

For the people who voted that they'd shun those that did participated in it - you should be put back into your conservative and religious cages, you old bats, go crawl back into the piss hole you came from.

strobe

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They are a few examples, but there are many many more.

Yes but those two, along with prostitution are (were) laws based solely on a certain antiquated system of morality, can you name one of these many many other laws where no coercion is taking place but they are deemed to be necessary to protect our good lords morality?

Millicent

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I meant with regard to the attitudes to sex within relationships.


And as for rape, I want making a comparison, just demonstrating that just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right or mean it should be legalized.

A lot of the draw of prostitution is resultant from the current attitudes to sex though. People often want the sort of sexual encounter from a prostitute that they would be too ashamed or disgusted by to ask of a partner. It's an odd dichotomy but the closing off of sexual freedom actually fuels a lot of prostitution. When people stop looking at sex as dirty or shameful, they will stop feeling the need to separate sexual partners into the categories of "whore" or "wife." I can't prove it but I would speculate that prostitution might have a positive effect on some relationships.

Monty Burnz

I'm starting to think that Mussolini has right-wing leanings

Standman

It's quite interesting that most people think that prostitution is illegal. If the Joe Duffy-ites got wind of this I could imagine it being illegalised within months.

Wolfe Tone

Millicent wrote: »

A lot of the draw of prostitution is resultant from the current attitudes to sex though. People often want the sort of sexual encounter from a prostitute that they would be too ashamed or disgusted by to ask of a partner. It's an odd dichotomy but the closing off of sexual freedom actually fuels a lot of prostitution. When people stop looking at sex as dirty or shameful, they will stop feeling the need to separate sexual partners into the categories of "whore" or "wife." I can't prove it but I would speculate that prostitution might have a positive effect on some relationships.

I am 19. If I was in a society where prostitution is an acceptable "norm" what sort of effect will that have on my attitude to sex, and indeed women?

I dont think it would be a positive one tbh.

Wolfe Tone

I would describe myself as left leaning actually.

Monty Burnz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would describe myself as left leaning actually.

Sorry, that was a joke based on your name.

---

*Checks PMs for offers of payment to romance Boards ladies*

Wolfe Tone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, that was a joke based on your name.

---

*Checks PMs for offers of payment to romance Boards ladies*

Yeah I know, my fault for picking a daft name.

Millicent

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am 19. If I was in a society where prostitution is an acceptable "norm" what sort of effect will that have on my attitude to sex, and indeed women?

I dont think it would be a positive one tbh.

What sort of effect do you think it has now where paid sexual encounters are too shameful to be legally accepted? Just for food for thought, statistically straight male prostitutes make up a tiny proportion of the sex worker trade while prostitute geared toward gay women is almost unheard of. The majority of prostitutes are straight women or gay men. Doesn't say a lot for current attitudes toward women.

Mike 1972

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am 19. If I was in a society where prostitution is an acceptable "norm" what sort of effect will that have on my attitude to sex, and indeed women?.

For a guy who reckons he is "left leaning" you seem to be very heavily influenced by "societys norms" ?

Millicent wrote: »

statistically straight male prostitutes make up a tiny proportion of the sex worker trade while prostitute geared toward gay women is almost unheard of. The majority of prostitutes are straight women or gay men. Doesn't say a lot for current attitudes toward women.

So are you suggesting that gay men who use male prostitues are homophobic

drkpower

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am 19. If I was in a society where prostitution is an acceptable "norm" what sort of effect will that have on my attitude to sex, and indeed women?

I dont think it would be a positive one tbh.

As a rule, it is not the role of the state to tell us what private consenting activity is a 'norm' and to criminalise private consenting activity it considers not to be a 'norm'. Society & parts thereof are perfectly capable of determining what private activities are 'norms', without the state making something illegal.

Taking a dump on your partner's t*ts would be frowned upon in most circles without the state feeling the need to make it illegal. Its summed up by this famous phrase.......: I vehemently disagree with your taste for taking a sh!t on your wife, but i will fight, to my last breath, for your right to do so......

Wolfe Tone

drkpower wrote: »

As a rule, it is not the role of the state to tell us what private consenting activity is a 'norm' and to criminalise private consenting activity it considers not to be a 'norm'. Society & parts thereof are perfectly capable of determining what private activities are 'norms', without the state making something illegal.

Taking a dump on your partner's t*ts would be frowned upon in most circles without the state feeling the need to make it illegal. Its summed up by this famous phrase.......: I vehemently disagree with your taste for taking a sh!t on your wife, but i will fight, to my last breath, for your right to do so......

But it aint private, you want it as a taxable job.

Monty Burnz

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So are you suggesting that gay men who use male prostitues are homophobic

Without wanting to speak for M here, I presume she is saying that the people in the sex industry are historically marginalised/disenfranchised groups.

Millicent

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So are you suggesting that gay men who use male prostitues are homophobic

Um, what?! right back at ye!

Wolfe Tone

I would say that the reason there are very few straight male prostitutes is that women generally can go out and have a sexual encounter, unless they are as ugly as sin.

Millicent

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So are you suggesting that gay men who use male prostitues are homophobic

Just to expand on what I meant Mike, prostitution will always be a viable industry as long as current attitudes toward sex prevail. I was hoping to suggest to Mussolini that it would be better to address and try to change those attitudes than to criminalise people who are cashing in on a niche. They are only taking advantage of a gap in the market -- keeping it illegal helps neither prostitute nor client.

drkpower

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But it aint private, you want it as a taxable job.

What do you mean by 'private'; do you think if it were legal, sex with prostitutes would be happening on the streets?

'Private' has no relationship to taxation; a packet of condoms are taxed but people use them in private.

You might clarify your statement; you seem confused.

Millicent

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would say that the reason there are very few straight male prostitutes is that women generally can go out and have a sexual encounter, unless they are as ugly as sin.

What about gay women? Why the dearth in lesbian prostitutes? I wouldn't imagine picking up a woman would be all that easy given the percentages of gay women in society compared to heterosexual.

Mike 1972

Millicent wrote: »

Um, what?! right back at ye!

Youre making sweeping generalisations about men who use female prostitutes and their attitude towards the female gender in general. If there were any foundation to such generalisations wouldnt it follow that they are also applicable to men who use male prostitutes.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am 19. If I was in a society where prostitution is an acceptable "norm" what sort of effect will that have on my attitude to sex, and indeed women?

If I had all day I could investigate how well women have historically been treated European societies with more liberal to attitudes to prostitution as compared to Ireland. As it happens I dont but I somehow suspect Ireland wouldnt exactly come out shining in such a comparison.

Wolfe Tone

drkpower wrote: »

What do you mean by 'private'; do you think if it were legal, sex with prostitutes would be happening on the streets?

'Private' has no relationship to taxation; a packet of condoms are taxed but people use them in private.

You might clarify your statement; you seem confused.

If it is run as a business, then how is it private? If it is taxed, regulated etc etc, then it aint private is it?

They would set themselves up as a company I am sure.

scientific1982

I wouldnt do it, but I have a few mates who did. Id feel like a scumbag.

drkpower

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If it is run as a business, then how is it private? If it is taxed, regulated etc etc, then it aint private is it?.

The activity that people pay for (ie. sex) will be in private. It is a transaction that one private individual pays another private individual in a privately negotiated contract and which is performed in a private setting with no doubt strict privacy being a condition of the contract........ How do you consider that public? :D

The Governemtn regulate my interaction with my doctor, but when he sticks his finger up my ass in a private consultation room and i pay him €50 for the pleasure, I consider it to be an entirely private transaction. How does the Goverment regulation of that transaction make it public in any substantive way?

Wolfe Tone

drkpower wrote: »

The activity that people pay for (ie. sex) will be in private. It is a transaction that one private individual pays another private individual in a privately negotiated contract and which is performed in a private setting with no doubt strict privacy being a condition of the contract........ How do you consider that public? :D

The Governemtn regulate my interaction with my doctor, but when he sticks his finger up my ass in a private consultation room and i pay him €50 for the pleasure, I consider it to be an entirely private transaction. How does the Goverment regulation of that transaction make it public in any substantive way?

So by your logic a contract negotiated in that way is no one elses business and should be beyond the remit of the law?

MazG

Monty Burnz wrote: »

MazG - you think a casual encounter is fine, but a professional agreement is not? I find that bizarre, quite frankly. And you don't address the fact that the options you consider 'fine' may not be possible for some people at all. How are they supposed to deal with their sex drives? Castration?

Eh - that's not what I said. I was using that list as examples of how one might otherwise attain sexual gratification if one did not pay for sex.

I am saying that I'm very uncomfortable with the attitude that people are entitled to sexual gratification. That it's something everyone should be able to demand