making bread

geordief

Can anyone give me a list of possible mistakes in making a good loaf of bread.?
I don't mean in general terms but actual specific terms.
I have probably made a loaf of bread every 2nd or 3rd day for the last 40 years so I should be quite expert but I quite easily will make a loaf that is pretty disappointing and it is also quite easy for me to buy a loaf that is way better than what I can do.
It doesn't seem to me that I am ever going to learn this skill on my own .
So what are the common mistakes that are made in the preparation and making of a good loaf? (an explanation of each mistake would also be very welcome)
(I should have said I am only talking about mainly wheat yeast loaves - just the basic plain loaf but not a pure white loaf )

brianthebard

Common mistakes would be using cold water in the mix, not kneading it properly, not leaving it long enough to prove, and generally treated the dough improperly. Also some people might add salt at the same time as the yeast which isn't good for the yeast. The wrong or old flour might cause problems too. The wrong temperature or shelf of the oven. Its hard to give specific answers if we don't know how you make your bread however.

Minder

Can you run through the steps that you do? That might be helpful in highlighting anything that can be changed.

geordief

thanks for your help.
Well I do have a favourable environment as the back of the Aga seems to me a great place for letting the dough rise. (sometimes I admit if I am in a hurry I will guess that it has more or less finished rising and I can sometimes put it in the oven slightly underisen)
Well ,to go through the steps I will use strong flour if I can but also work with any old brown flour that seems alright. I will always add a bit of strong white flour as it makes the kneeding more enjoyable and I will basically proportion the white to the brown according to how I feel at the time.
In the past I would reconstitute dried yeast (with warm water) and add it to the main bulk of (warm) water which I then add to the flour -but I also use the dried sachets that you add directly to the flour when I have run out of the former kind of yeast and I find both methods similar in outcome.
So ,normally I get my frothy yeast (it takes about 10 minutes to froth up) , and add this to my flour mixture along with the rest of the warm water.

I mix it all together to a very loose consistency -not watery but not firm- and this I cover and leave behind the Aga and covered with a cloth for about an hour until it has started to rise properly (I never fail in this part)
Then ,for the kneeding I either turn it out onto a formica top (not admittedly necessarily particularly warm -just kitchen temperature) or I will kneed it in the bowl.

I do this kneeding for about 10 minutes or more and I suppose it is quite effective as it is quite strenuous work -basically tearing it apart and folding it back together.

Now I know the books say to put it back to rise a 2nd time but I always put it into the tins at this stage and put them at the back op the Aga for aroud 40 minutes normally.
Then I judge if the dough has risen to the maximum and put the tins into the preheated oven (the heat depends on a manual setting as we don't use a thermostat as for a long time I thought it was broken and so we adjust the temperature to suit our various requirements -but there are all sorts of hotter or colder spots that you can choose
I do feel that the very hottest may be the best and it is not always available especially as the temperature takes 1 -2 hours to really build and I may not have the time.)
In the oven I normally will take them out of the tins to brown the bottoms.
At the end of this ,quite often it is a lovely loaf but I feel that even the very best I will manage doesn't really compare to some of the loaves I might get in a good shop -Sheridans for example.
I wonder is the oven a limiting factor as I suspect a lot of bakers may use wood fired ovens?
I think the Aga oven is good but is it the best?

brianthebard

Do you not knead it before letting it rise the first time? The consistency you suggested is a lot softer sounding than I would ever allow bread dough to be before rising, this could just be misinterpretation however. Also when you say tearing it apart when kneading, how far exactly does this tearing go? It should stretch the dough and create tear marks but the dough should always be the one piece imo. Its been a while since I baked admittedly but imo the lack of kneading before the first proving seems to be the most obvious issue.

geordief

well no I nearly always just kneed it the once.
The first time I just let it rise in a kind of loose mixture (I thought I had seen that recommended but it is so long ago since I pored over instructions that I could be misremembering)
I thought that the kneading I gave it second time around should be enough (I never get air bubbles anyway).

As for the actual kneading ,yes it does stay in one piece I just sort of holt it with one hand and pull it away with the other and fold it over on top of itself.

So you think kneading twice could be important ?(I probably do kneed it a bit at first out of habit but the second time around I add extra flour and give it a much more of a workover.)

brianthebard

I think it should be mixed together then turned out and kneaded for a good ten minutes, adding flour when necessary to get it to the right doughy consistency. It should start out as a sticky mix and end up as a tight ball of dough which although possibly a little floppy would not break into pieces if you held it in the air for instance. You should then bring it into a ball with no cracks on the outside if possible, by tucking the bottom in on itself, then put it in the bowl and cover to rise for a while, until it fills the bowl.

When that's done you should knock it back and rather than kneading it then it should shaped enough to fit into the tin. At this stage it will be a very different dough, it should have a lot of air in it and smell of yeast, and it will be a bit sticky to the touch when you break the outer crust which is slightly hardened from being in contact with the air. It shouldn't be messed with too much at this point.

I don't think it is necessary to knead it twice but I think some recipes call for a second proofing and possibly a second kneading before that. From the sounds of things however, if you don't let it prove a second time then you probably knock all the air out of the dough before putting it straight into the oven. I imagine it will be a lot denser and more rubbery than necessary that way. I'm not sure why you are worried about getting air bubbles?

Have a look on youtube for some chefs (eg Ramsey) baking bread and compare their technique to yours for more details.

geordief

well I definitely don't put it into the oven without proving it again.The reason I was talking about there being no bubbles is that to my mind that could be an indication that I hadn't kneaded enough.

Yes I had better look at a few videos like you suggest.
Or just read around the subject

thanks again for your help

Deise Musashi

Do you use some salt in the mix?
You need a little salt to get a good crust, it also inhibits the yeast action a little so it doesn't overproof and collapse with all the yeast used up.

Sponging the yeast in warm water is good, mixing up the dough with the yeast, warm water, flour and salt should give you a firm but pliable dough.
Kneading can be done by folding over and squashing the dough, turning and folding each time. No need to bash the heart out of it though I have seen French Bakers do just that, slamming and folding their dough.
The dough should end up firm, not wet enough to stick on your hands but still a little tacky and loose to handle.

Oil a bowl, make a ball of the dough and leave covered in cling film and a towel to double in size. When doubled push it down to expel the air and at this stage I would shape my loaves. I started off using tins but prefer to shape French loaves, Boules, Batards etc. now instead.

Once shaped I sprinkle with flour, seeds or whatever and slash my loaves. Corner of a razor blade slitting diagonally into the dough to give controlled expansion guidelines. Leave to rise again, preferably sitting on a wooden board covered in baking parchment. This makes it easy to move and slide your loaves into the oven on the parchment.

In the oven I have some big floor tiles acting as heat sinks to give a solid even heat inside. Preheat the oven well in advance of putting the loaves in. Once in I put some boiling water in a shallow tray in the bottom of the oven and mist the loaves with water from a plant sprayer. Close the door and leave the steam fill the oven. I may spray again after 30 seconds to get a good steamy atmosphere inside.

After ten minutes I reduce the oven temperature and cook until well golden or darker brown. I like a good thick crunchy crust! The loaves should have risen more in the oven "oven spring" as the heat gives the yeast a burst of activity. Once the temp. rises high enough the yeast is killed off and your bread cooks away.

When done leave it cool! Steam has to escape the loaves and soggy doughy bread is less digestible. Leave them on a wire rack to cool, keeps the nicely browned bottom of the loaves from getting soggy with trapped steam.

What problems does your bread have? Modern white bread uses a method where too much yeast is used to rise the loaf quickly. Less yeast and more time means flavour has time to develop and more starch is converted to sugars by the yeast. You probably don't get as much of a rise out of home made bread but the texture and flavour are miles better.

dixiefly

Hi Deise,
What recipe do you use?
Thanks

Deise Musashi

Lately I'm using Richard Bertinet's recipe for French Bread made using a poolish (starter), I have a sourdough starter on the go that should be ready next week for some sourdough bakery:D

sham69

I have a sourdough starter on the go that should be ready next week for some sourdough bakery

Sorry , new to baking and have just made some pizza dough and a couple of loaves of white bread that didnt come out too well.
I am interested in making some sourdough as I love it but havent a clue where to start.
I have been reading about the starter etc but am looking for a good recipe.
Any suggestions.
Thanks in Advance.
Sham.

Deise Musashi

French Bread with Poolish (starter)

For the starter you will need.

a packet of yeast, about 7grams
350g. of warm water
300g. Strong white flour
50g. dark Rye flour.

Mix it all together and leave for the yeast to activate and start bubbling. The Rye flour seems to be yeast's favourite food so it gives it a kickstart. This will work without Rye, but I like it. Leave it for an hour, or two, or stick it in the fridge for a day, or three. I like making a poolish on Thursday, leave it in the fridge and leave it out to warm up again before baking on Saturday. The cold slows the yeast activity, but time lets more flavour build in the mix.

Right, starter out of the fridge an hour or three before baking. Leave to warm up to room temperature, unless your house is freezing, then you can stick the heating on.

Make a cup of coffee, tea may work but it's a poor substitute.

Make sure you've got enough flour in the cupboard now as well!

In a large bowl put:-

All of the Poolish.
700g of water, maybe keep a little back for adjusting either way. Depends on humidity and stuff.
1.3kg strong white flour
another packet of yeast, it will rise without this, eventually.
mix it up with a spoon, your hand, a Magimix or whatever.
throw in 30g. of salt, don't let salt hit the yeast, add it when yeast is well mixed in.
Adjust flour or water to get a good smooth dough, not too sticky. Knead for five minutes in a machine or ten to fifteen minutes (or until fed up) by hand.
Your trying to mix the ingredients and also make gluten strands in the dough.

It will go from tacky as bejaysus to smooth and silky as if by magic, keep working it and don't add too much flour!
You need it loose and able to rise, not a hard ball of not elastic.

Never seen it written in any of the books, but really it should feel like a nice boob. Soft but firm, not hard, and fun to play with!

Right, oil a bowl lightly, pop the dough in there and cover with cling film (or an old carrier bag) and a towel. Put it somewhere warm out of a draught to rise (proof). It should double at least, and pressing a finger into it a little it should pop the dimple back out.

At this stage you can degas and shape your loaves. Don't crush it, I find the shaping knocks it back enough anyways. Once shaped leave the bread shapes on baking parchment on a chopping board or something so you can slide them onto your oven trays.



Preheat your oven while your loaves rise again, set it to 250 or as close as your oven gets to that. I have old bathroom tiles on the shelves to act as heat sinks, helps maintain an even temp. and browns the loaves nicely. Have an old roasting tray in the bottom of the oven as well.

Once the loaves have risen, open your hot oven (take off glasses first or you'll be blind for a bit) and slide loaves and parchment onto hot tiles, upturned roasting tray or pizza stone. Pour some boiling water into the bottom roasting tray to make steam, and spray the loaves with water from a plant mister for more steam and a lovely crust!

About fifteen squirts should do it.

Close the oven and set the timer! Baquettes about fifteen minutes, large loaves about forty minutes. This depends on how dark you like your crust, how wet the dough was, how hot the oven gets etc. Experiment with it, using this dough as a base.





I often add seeds, shape boules, batards etc.






Hope this helps!

The sourdough starter I added equal amounts by weight rye flour and orange juice.
Repeat this each day for three days then replace the juice with warm water, use strong white flour instead if you'd like.
Your trying to feed the wild yeast on the rye and the juice gives a better environment for them to thrive.

After five days to a week you should see the mix getting bubbles in it and rising after feeds. That's pretty much it, store in the fridge and feed weekly.

These sites have lots of info on care and use of your starter, and you don't need to buy yeast anymore if you choose to go that way!

I've only cooked one sourdough loaf so far, in my new bread cloche my sister got me! Little trial and error but first try eats good



http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

http://www.breadcetera.com/

http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/

sham69

Wow, bread looks great
Thanks for the tips.
I will definitely try out this recipe
I doubt it's going to look as good as yours do though
Very impressive.
You could sell that to a local shop....

Uncle_moe

This has become a phenomenon since it was published it in the NY Times a few years ago. It's Jim Lahey's recipe and works fantastically well. Give it a go because its quite easy, just needs a night to prove.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html?_r=1&ex=1181707200&en=7212480acfeb7a45&ei=5070

the beer revolu

Deise Musashi, your bread looks fantastic ant that was a very informative post, thank you.

But how is that sour dough?
Surely it is yeast risen (albeit very slowly developed yeast starter).
Maybe I don't fully understand how sourdough works but I would have thought that by putting bakers yeast in your starter and then more in your dough that other cultures (sourdough ones) wouldn't get a chance to develop.

Either way, I envy your bread.

Wisco

Mmmmm, Deise, all those photos of bread are making my mouth water. I think I'll have to give the sourdough starter bit a go as well as have been eyeballing the recipes in my bread cookbook lately but have been unsure about results. Thanks for all the info (and tasty looking photos!)

Deise Musashi

But how is that sour dough?

The sourdough bread is made using a sourdough starter of naturally ocurring yeasts (from the air and the rye flour) instead of using a poolish made with rehydrated commercial yeasts. At this stage I am halving the sourdough once a week and feeding both halves with flour and water. One goes back in the fridge (the Mother) and the other is used to bake a loaf of bread.

The first recipe I posted is a French bread with Poolish starter, I started out using the no knead recipes and just keep trying different things.

For example a quarter tea spoon of red wine vinegar in the no knead bread dough encourages the yeast to multiply faster, handy if you want bread sooner and don't want to retard the dough in the fridge overnight.

I think that no knead recipe gets cooked in a Dutch oven or casserole? The Cloche I've got does much the same job. I bought a second one since in Lidl, seven quid! In case I break one, or if I want to make bigger batches, I can rise one in the cloche while another bakes.

I'm still trying new things and recipes. Richard Bertinet and Peter Reinhart's books are excellent, especially "Crust" and "The Bread Bakers Apprentice".
Much advice and discussion over on thefreshloaf.com as well, some of it very detailed on the chemistry of bread making. Good stuff, and very nice with Blackcurrant jam

the beer revolu

Sorry, you were talking about 2 different recipes there.
Your baguette recipe isn't sourdough, right?

Deise Musashi

Correct, the baguette is made with a poolish of flour, water and rehydrated yeast.

The sourdough takes about two weeks to get going as it's just naturally occurring yeasts from the Rye flour being encouraged to grow and multiply in a similar starter.
They say to use orange or pineapple juice for the first two or three days instead of water to give the right acidity levels for the yeast to outstrip the growth of bacteria in the mixture, then go with water and rye or strong white flour for the subsequent feedings.

johnnycee66

Peter Reinharts book "the Bread Bakers Apprentice" is excellent, requires a bit of reading, but introduces the concept of making the dough in a mixer (wet doughs are best but can defy handling) with ice water and retarding it in the fridge overnight. Two days to make bread may seem laborious, but the actual hands-on work involved is about 30 minutes, and the process can be adapted to accommodate a working day. I use the recipe for the Pain de Campagne, making a 1.5 kilo boule. Very good place to start