Does god really give a...?

Memnoch

Homosexuality, Gay Marriage etc etc etc...

This is the one issue that relies undermines religion for me... AND convinces me that God as described by mainstream religions does not exist.

The idea that an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent deity would really concern itself with something so utterly trivial and petty is just so.... ludicrous.

Fragile human ego on the other hand? But this is not surprising. We consider ourselves to be special and unique enough to warrant attention from such a being, so invoking said being in favour of our prejudices is not really that big a step.

Seriously, to the religious posters here, you really think God ACTUALLY cares?

Personally, I think that in 50 years time the issue of homosexuality will go the way of almost every other similar religious cause. I.E. too many people in society will accept it for religious leaders to condemn it without seeming completely out of touch with their herd and they will have to, once again, change the message from the infallible, immutable word of God. Though I'm sure there will be some other type of blasphemy/heresy to keep the pyres flaming.

Pushtrak

There are the evil things that god approves that religious people no longer approve of, and the evil things that go with their natural prejudices. It is a la carte religiosity. There is a thread on a la carte Catholics elsewhere.

Edit: Elsewhere can be specified to here.

Zillah

To quote myself: No rule too trivial, no transgression too petty, no mammal too terrified for this omnipotent space-child to devote His entire awesome and belligerent attention to it.

Memnoch

Zillah wrote: »

To quote myself: No rule too trivial, no transgression too petty, no mammal too terrified for this omnipotent space-child to devote His entire awesome and belligerent attention to it.

The resemblance between the God of the religious and the patriarchal leaders of the religious is just so uncanny. He really did make them in his image.

Galvasean

or vice versa...

Ickle Magoo

Galvasean wrote: »

or vice versa...

Does shit give a god?

I always found the accusation of atheists being arrogant to be amusing.
Atheists are arrogant, but assuming an omnipotent deity with all the universe (or even multiverse) to play with cares about you, a tiny little relatively insigificant dot, that's not arrogant? And assuming it cares about who you sleep with?

krudler

Apparently he does, he just never leaves any proof, aside from some book not written by him a couple of thousand years ago.

krudler

bluewolf wrote: »

I always found the accusation of atheists being arrogant to be amusing.
Atheists are arrogant, but assuming an omnipotent deity with all the universe (or even multiverse) to play with cares about you, a tiny little relatively insigificant dot, that's not arrogant? And assuming it cares about who you sleep with?

Yup, bum sex riles him right up apparently, he can put running the universes aside for a while to smite those who enjoy it in the naughty place.

Ickle Magoo

And doesn't mind creating a world that wipes out millions with famine, tsunami, earthquake, etc - but preventing life from even forming by using a condom? Absolutely not!

Galvasean

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Does shit give a god?

Perhaps...

Pushtrak

Galvasean wrote: »

Perhaps...

Looks more like gingerbread christ. Didn't run fast enough, I guess.

Ickle Magoo

Galvasean wrote: »

Perhaps...

Wow, what the hell were they eating?! :eek:

Busi_Girl08

Galvasean wrote: »

Perhaps...

"Hoooooowdy ho!!!"

krudler

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And doesn't mind creating a world that wipes out millions with famine, tsunami, earthquake, etc - but preventing life from even forming by using a condom? Absolutely not!

No no you've got it all wrong, god only helps people pass exams, and makes nice babies, and makes people better (but NOT sick in the first place). He really has got all his bases covered that way.

Good stuff: prayers answered, proof of god.
Bad stuff: not god, but he doesnt step in to stop bad stuff happening either, cos either hes too lazy or not omnipotent, but STILL people believe he controls everything in the universe, isnt that the sweetest deal you've ever heard of?

So to summarise, oil spills, war, famine, mass murder/genocide, pollution= man left alone. nice stuff= god.

Memnoch

Okay okay, this is totally my fault but I really don't want this thread to turn into one big joke.

I was being serious when I was trying to ask the religious to contribute to this topic.

I'm just trying to figure out if they really don't see the logical fallacy, or perhaps improbability of this idea?

The assumption would be that they don't, otherwise they wouldn't hold the positions on the issue that they do.

P.S. To further clarify, I'm not against the IDEA of the existence of a being that might seem omnipotent to us and was responsible for the creation of our universe. I just find it hard to marry the idea of such a being with the idea of this being holding the kinds of beliefs that mainstream religions attribute to it.

robindch

bluewolf wrote: »

Atheists are arrogant, but assuming an omnipotent deity with all the universe (or even multiverse) to play with cares about you, a tiny little relatively insigificant dot, that's not arrogant?

Greenfully recycling most of a post from last December:

Near the mid-Atlantic Ridge,
There's a hydrothermal vent,
With there lives a small amoeba
Who wondered what it meant.

He pondered all around him,
Surveying the wide, deep sea,
And cheerfully concluded,
"The whole lot's made for ME!".

Zillah

Memnoch wrote: »

Okay okay, this is totally my fault but I really don't want this thread to turn into one big joke.

I was being serious when I was trying to ask the religious to contribute to this topic.

I'm just trying to figure out if they really don't see the logical fallacy, or perhaps improbability of this idea?

The assumption would be that they don't, otherwise they wouldn't hold the positions on the issue that they do.

P.S. To further clarify, I'm not against the IDEA of the existence of a being that might seem omnipotent to us and was responsible for the creation of our universe. I just find it hard to marry the idea of such a being with the idea of this being holding the kinds of beliefs that mainstream religions attribute to it.

Imagine I'm speaking very quickly:

God loves us all and while sometimes it might seem like he doesn't care He has a plan and we must trust in His plan. We are unable to understand the will of God for He is great and we are small. He is testing us. Free will did it. It's all actually Satan's fault. God loves us too much. Original sin ruined everything. Don't think about suffering in the world, focus on the salvation offered by Jesus Christ your saviour. Your pain brings you closer to Jesus. Just have faith.

Zillah

Zillah wrote: »

Imagine I'm speaking very quickly:

God loves us all and while sometimes it might seem like he doesn't care He has a plan and we must trust in His plan. We are unable to understand the will of God for He is great and we are small. He is testing us. Free will did it. It's all actually Satan's fault. God loves us too much. Original sin ruined everything. Don't think about suffering in the world, focus on the salvation offered by Jesus Christ your saviour. Your pain brings you closer to Jesus. Just have faith.

Don't forget that god loves us really nut sometimes we make him so mad. and we're horrible people who don't deserve him and when he punishes us we really deserve it and of course we'll never leave because nobody else will ever love us just as much because we're so horrible

Zombrex

Memnoch wrote: »

Homosexuality, Gay Marriage etc etc etc...

This is the one issue that relies undermines religion for me...

Really, you could only find one reason? :P

krudler

Zillah wrote: »

Imagine I'm speaking very quickly:

God loves us all and while sometimes it might seem like he doesn't care He has a plan and we must trust in His plan. We are unable to understand the will of God for He is great and we are small. He is testing us. Free will did it. It's all actually Satan's fault. God loves us too much. Original sin ruined everything. Don't think about suffering in the world, focus on the salvation offered by Jesus Christ your saviour. Your pain brings you closer to Jesus. Just have faith.

God is a cylon

The Mad Hatter

krudler wrote: »

No no you've got it all wrong, god only helps people pass exams, and makes nice babies, and makes people better (but NOT sick in the first place). He really has got all his bases covered that way.

Good stuff: prayers answered, proof of god.
Bad stuff: not god, but he doesnt step in to stop bad stuff happening either, cos either hes too lazy or not omnipotent, but STILL people believe he controls everything in the universe, isnt that the sweetest deal you've ever heard of?

So to summarise, oil spills, war, famine, mass murder/genocide, pollution= man left alone. nice stuff= god.

But if one person survives said disaster, say with a combination of [URL="http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Earthquake-Survivor-Says-iPhone-a-Life-Saver--82081602.html]"]ingenuity and their iPhone[/URL], God did it.

krudler

Mine caves in, trapps dozens, kills a few= nature.

1 person survives= miracle of god.

You'd think if he could perform miracles he wouldnt have allowed the cave in to happen to begin with, even Superman could turn back time and stop stuff from happening :pac:

topper75

God created the universe. If I tell you any further thing about God, I'm telling you something I have made up or that someone else made up.


Have a look at Deism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Deism (pronounced /ˈdiːɪzəm/, us dict: dē′·ĭzm)[1][2] is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for either faith or organized religion.

Galvasean

krudler wrote: »

Mine caves in, trapps dozens, kills a few= nature.

1 person survives= miracle of god.

You'd think if he could perform miracles he wouldnt have allowed the cave in to happen to begin with, even Superman could turn back time and stop stuff from happening :pac:

God can too. He just chooses not to because it get's silly.

Zillah

topper75 wrote: »

God created the universe

This bit is made up too, fyi.

PDN

krudler wrote: »

Mine caves in, trapps dozens, kills a few= nature.

Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature? And there I was being silly enough to ascribe collapsing coal mines to human error and malfeasance.

ColmDawson

PDN wrote: »

Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature? And there I was being silly enough to ascribe collapsing coal mines to human error and malfeasance.

You could probably replace 'mine distaster' with 'earthquake' or something like that.

Galvasean

PDN wrote: »

Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature? And there I was being silly enough to ascribe collapsing coal mines to human error and malfeasance.

Didn't the man upstairs make us error prone (y'know in his own image)?

krudler

PDN wrote: »

Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature? And there I was being silly enough to ascribe collapsing coal mines to human error and malfeasance.

Earthquakes, floods, volcanos, take your pick.

so, god sits back and watches human error result in loss of life? you'd think considering he supposedly finds life so precious (according to anti abortion brigade) that he'd stop people being killed if he knows its going to happen, or else its part of his plan,which is even worse.

so either hes not omnipotent, or just doesnt care, either way its a shoddy work ethic this supposed almight deity has dont ya think?

seamus

ColmDawson wrote: »

You could probably replace 'mine distaster' with 'earthquake' or something like that.

If we didn't exercise our free will and choose to live on a fault line, then we wouldn't have to deal with this heartache.

There'll always be some bull**** excuse to admonish "God" of any responsibility when people suffer. He's either lazy, evil or he doesn't exist. Take your pick.

mehfesto

Couple of questions I'd love to have answered:

1. Is god omniscience?

2. Does god know everything that was, is, will be - and is possible?

3. Does he have any control over over the world? (i.e. can he interevene at will?)

4. If he is against Homosexuality for instance, why does he allow it to happen? (i.e. why does he allow it to be even possible - why did he create us with the potentail to do it - body parts and ideas of it?)

5. Does God want some people to go to hell?

6. Why does god allow 'evil'?

6b. If the devil is to blame, does that mean that the devil is as powerful as god?

6c. If God is omniscience, how did he not know about the rise of Evil - and why didn't he stamp it out as soon as it occurred?

7. Why did god give us free will if it was only going to make him angry? Surely he would have known that by giving us it, we would question everything - and DO everything?

All answers appreciated, but any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.

Galvasean

mehfesto wrote: »

any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.

It's all part of the 'divine plan'...

mehfesto

Galvasean wrote: »

It's all part of the 'divine plan'...

That too. Any of that 'we don't know' stuff veiled as evidence for it all and I'm getting out today.

krudler

Galvasean wrote: »

It's all part of the 'divine plan'...

I can't take a deity seriously whose divine plan includes mass death. He's like a kid with an antfarm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day, but more sadistic.

He's the ultimate politician, nobody really knows what he actually does, he gets all the praise when stuff goes right and none of the blame when stuff goes wrong, his PR agent is a genius.

Galvasean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGR4SFOimlk

krudler

mehfesto wrote: »

Couple of questions I'd love to have answered:

1. Is god omniscience?

2. Does god know everything that was, is, will be - and is possible?

3. Does he have any control over over the world? (i.e. can he interevene at will?)

4. If he is against Homosexuality for instance, why does he allow it to happen? (i.e. why does he allow it to be even possible - why did he create us with the potentail to do it - body parts and ideas of it?)

5. Does God want some people to go to hell?

6. Why does god allow 'evil'?

6b. If the devil is to blame, does that mean that the devil is as powerful as god?

6c. If God is omniscience, how did he not know about the rise of Evil - and why didn't he stamp it out as soon as it occurred?

7. Why did god give us free will if it was only going to make him angry? Surely he would have known that by giving us it, we would question everything - and DO everything?

All answers appreciated, but any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.

All of these can be answered by the simple reasoning that the bible has more plot holes than a Michael Bay movie, it was written by simpler people to keep other simple people in check. We should have elevated our thinking beyond fairy tales and ancient mysticism and ludicrous belief in the face of reason, but hey, we're only human.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature?

No, the cave-ins are a naturally-occurring feature.

Miners generally don't try to cause cave-ins themselves. God, on the other hand, if he were a deity of infinite love, would as direct the miners away from dangerous areas, as he would surely intervene to protect the miners from disaster if it did happen. Seems he took his eye off the ball in Chile last month.

I don't have stats to hand, but I'm sure it's quite easy to show that, say, the mining industry (when there still was one) in the relatively atheist UK was far, far safer than the current industry in Chile (85% christian). Which would lead one to suspect that the christian deity who was apathetically failing to protect his faithful charges in Chile, seems to have had a lot of time to protect the damned in England. A funny chap!

Dades

Mysterious ways, ftw.

topper75

Zillah wrote: »

This bit is made up too, fyi.

so this universe doesn't exist then? That is slightly worrying no?

ColmDawson

topper75 wrote: »

so this universe doesn't exist then? That is slightly worrying no?

He never said that. Your deist approach, while far more reasonable than a theist one, still pulls the first bit ("God created the universe") out of thin air.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Which would lead one to suspect that the christian deity who was apathetically failing to protect his faithful charges in Chile, seems to have had a lot of time to protect the damned in England. A funny chap!

Perhaps there is a bit in the Bible about mining that me missed.

krudler

Galvasean wrote: »

Perhaps there is a bit in the Bible about mining that me missed.

It got mistranslated as "cheesemakers"

topper75

ColmDawson wrote: »

He never said that. Your deist approach, while far more reasonable than a theist one, still pulls the first bit ("God created the universe") out of thin air.

Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Sam Vimes

topper75 wrote: »

Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The fact that people say "creation is evidence of a creator" is itself evidence of hyperactive Agency Detection. People used to think that lightning was evidence of an intelligent being but now we know better.

Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?

krudler

topper75 wrote: »

Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer. Since theres no way to debunk the fact he doesnt exist thats all the proof most theists need. We should worship the sun, like George Carlin "I know the sun exists, because I can see it, I'm big on that, if I can see something, it kinda helps the credibility of its existence"

robindch

topper75 wrote: »

Creation is evidence of a Creator.

What conscious entity creates mountains?

Dades

topper75 wrote: »

Creation is evidence of a Creator.

Isn't that a wee bit circular?

MagicMarker

If God exists then he's an almighty cúnt.

Fin.

Sam Vimes

topper75 wrote: »

Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Dades wrote: »

Isn't that a wee bit circular?

robindch wrote: »

What conscious entity creates mountains?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The fact that people say "creation is evidence of a creator" is itself evidence of hyperactive Agency Detection. People used to think that lightning was evidence of an intelligent being but now we know better.

Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?

krudler wrote: »

And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer. Since theres no way to debunk the fact he doesnt exist thats all the proof most theists need. We should worship the sun, like George Carlin "I know the sun exists, because I can see it, I'm big on that, if I can see something, it kinda helps the credibility of its existence"

I'm reminded of this photo for some reason:

topper75

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?

That is as far as I am going (bolded above) myself. I really don't get your issue with the label. I don't know anything about God or the intelligence of God. Maybe the label has been polluted for you because of organised religions' characterisation of God as a being/person of sorts. I could also say Force or First Cause if it makes you feel better.

krudler wrote: »

And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer.

I don't believe in a 'bloke in the sky' myself. LOL at the condescension. We can fathom a good deal of creation and the origin of the universe it seems. Chapter 1 of The Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson gives a good layman's description.